RE: Reese WD bar question??
taken,
You should contact Reese to determine if your existing hitch head is rated for use with tongue weight greater than 1200#. I think I recall reading that the 1700# system uses a different (stronger) head.
Also, I believe the 1200# bars and the 1700# are identical both in dimensions and in steel composition. A WD bar's flexural stiffness is determined by its elastic modulus. Changing the carbon content or heat treating the steel has no significant effect on the elastic modulus.
You can contact Reese customer service via email.
Ron
RE: TT wind deflector ?
Unfortunately, the link to the photos and the narrative have been removed from the johnbridge website. The following photos can still be accessed.
http://www.johnbridge.com/images/Resize%20of%20nose11.jpg
http://www.johnbridge.com/images/Resize%20of%20nose15.jpg
http://www.johnbridge.com/images/Resize%20of%20nose19.jpg
http://www.johnbridge.com/images/Resize%20of%20nose20.jpg
http://www.johnbridge.com/images/Resize%20of%20nose21.jpg
http://www.johnbridge.com/images/Resize%20of%20nose22.jpg
http://www.johnbridge.com/images/Resize%20of%20nose24.jpg
Ron
RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
---After answering all their questions, in their comment portion I asked from them how much tension is added in pounds (or any measure) for each hole in the L bracket or each inch of tension on the bars or however they calculate it. Is tension linear or is it progressive?
If you provide the dimensions of your WD bars, I can calculate the value you're looking for.
I need to know:
1. Width and height of the WD bar at the front end,
2. Width and height of the bar at the L-bracket(if different from the front),
3. Distance from Socket Pivot Bolt to L-bracket, and
4. Vertical spacing between holes in L-bracket.
Ron
jmtandem responded via PM with:
spring bars are 1.5 inches square at both ends
holes one inch apart
28.5 inches middle of socket to middle of L bracket
The force required to make these bars deflect 1" is about 1640# assuming the load on the bar does not cause any pitch-axis rotation of the receiver. And, the load-deflection relationship is linear as long as the stress in the bar does not exceed its yield point.
However, there will be some pitch-axis rotation of the receiver. The question is -- how much? The answer depends on the design of the receiver.
The hitch manufacturer could not tell you how much tension is added for each hole in the L bracket or each inch of tension on the bars unless they knew the structural details of the receiver and its attachments to the TV's frame.
Ron
RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
---After answering all their questions, in their comment portion I asked from them how much tension is added in pounds (or any measure) for each hole in the L bracket or each inch of tension on the bars or however they calculate it. Is tension linear or is it progressive?
If you provide the dimensions of your WD bars, I can calculate the value you're looking for.
I need to know:
1. Width and height of the WD bar at the front end,
2. Width and height of the bar at the L-bracket(if different from the front),
3. Distance from Socket Pivot Bolt to L-bracket, and
4. Vertical spacing between holes in L-bracket.
Ron
RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
Ron Gratz - In your post you stated "Reese 2000: Re-measure front and rear wheel well reference points (vehicle should settle evenly, within about 1/2inch). If front has settled more than rear, increase the number of chain links between yoke hook and spring bar. If there are no more links, the angle of the head assembly must be decreased." Not sure what the Reese 2000 is, but I got the Reese HP DC hitch early 2006. Does that help?
"Reese 2000" is my shorthand way of indicating the quoted material was taken from an Installation Instruction document which had a year 2000 copyright date.
Some time between year 2000 and year 2007, Reese switched from recommending the equal or nearly equal squat approach to stating that the "Front wheel well height MUST be equal to or less than the original measurement."
I'm guessing that the revised specification in the 2007 document applies to all Reese WD hitches regardless of year of manufacture.
Ron
RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
The 25/50/25 info came from one the most reputable expensive hitch companies. Rarely, situations are ideal and the ideal numbers probably should be treated as such. You, too, can get that info from hitch manufacturers should you ask.It would be helpful if you would tell us the name of the hitch company so we could determine if there is something special about their particular hitch.
As I pointed out in this post, the various hitch and tow vehicle manufacturers' recommendations are:
Eaz-lift: Remeasure front and back of towing vehicle and have both
settle the same amount or up to an inch lower in back by adjusting chain on spring bars.
Valley Industries: Vehicle should settle evenly, within 1/2". Re-measure the front and rear bumper reference points. If the front has settled much more than the rear, increase the number of chain links between the lift bracket and the spring bar.
Reese 2000: Re-measure front and rear wheel well reference points (vehicle should settle evenly, within about 1/2inch). If front has settled more than rear, increase the number of chain links between yoke hook and spring bar. If there are no more links, the angle of the head assembly must be decreased.
Reese 2007: Re-measure the front wheel well reference point. Front wheel well height MUST be equal to or less than the original measurement. If the front wheel well height is higher than previously measured, the head tilt angle must be increased (tilted downward). If the front wheel well height is substantially lower than originally measured (1 ½ inches or more), the head tilt angle must be reduced (tilted upward), or for coarse adjustment the pad hanger bolts can be lowered one hole.
Hensley Mfg: Adjustments to the jack tensioning system can be made at any time during your travels. If the ride feels too soft or too stiff, the spring bars can be tensioned or untensioned to make your ride more comfortable.
Equal-i-zer 2009: Good adjustment:
You have most likely achieved good weight distribution adjustment if your measurements show the following:
1.The FRONT of the tow vehicle measures the same as, or slightly higher than its uncoupled height.
2.The REAR of the tow vehicle is slightly lower than its uncoupled height, but noticeably higher than it is when coupled without weight distribution engaged.
Ford (since 1998):
2. Measure the height of a reference point on the front and rear bumpers at the center of the vehicle.
3. Attach the trailer to the vehicle and adjust the hitch equalizers so that the front bumper height is within 1/2 inch (13 mm) of the reference point. After proper adjustment, the rear bumper should be no higher than in Step 2.
GMC: When using a weight distributing hitch, the hitch must be adjusted so the distance {from ground to front wheel well} remains the same both before and after coupling the trailer to the tow vehicle. GMC recommendation
I find nothing to indicate the "ideal" load distribution should be 25/50/25. Equal-i-zer, Reese, Ford, and GM indicate the front axle load distribution percentage should be approximately zero.
There is considerable information/reading on the Airstream forums about hitches, how to adjust them, and what constitutes a well set up hitch. Almost never mentioned here, that forum also has substantial discussion suggesting using less spring bar tension, often much less than what we would normally expect and what hitch manufacturers recommend to prevent potential tongue or body to frame damage from too harsh of a ride/too harsh of a tow vehicle. It is not uncommon on their forums to find owners using 600 pound bars for a 9000 pound trailer with a tongue of around 1200 pounds and reporting very happy results.Yes, one vendor has even posted an article about Airstream TOWING MYTHS. He claims:
The heavier duty the tow vehicle, the lighter the hitch bar rating must be.
As an example, if the trailer has 800 pounds tongue weight, a properly equipped half ton truck should use 750 to 800 pound rating bars.
A 3/4 ton truck or vehicle, should use 550 to 600 pound bars.
A large 60’s to 70’s automobile, should use 1000 pound bars.
And, it is not uncommon for Airstream owners to strongly disagree with these claims.
But, getting back to your point -- if you do use WD bars which are rated for less than the tongue weight and use lesser WD bar loads, it is highly unlikely that you could ever achieve 25% weight distribution on the TV's front axle. More likely, you would end up with weight removed rather than weight added.
Ron
RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
So the question is: What does 200# more tongue weight do to the friction lock of the Reese DC? Is that extra 200# a key player in my setup and partly what Sinton is lacking?John, the amount of friction force which can be generated by the DC is not directly affected by tongue weight. As indicated in your calculations, it is the WD bar loading which directly affects the friction.
However, if you increase/decrease the tongue weight and your objective is to keep the TV's front axle load at its unhitched value, you must increase/decrease the WD bar load by the same percentage. If you increase the tongue weight from 1200# to 1400# (16.7% increase), you would need to increase the WD bar load by 16.7% and the DC friction forces would increase by 16.7%. This agrees with your result even though the magnitude of your calculated friction force increase is less than actual because you assumed the DC bar end was horizontal.
I do not know if that 16% less DC holding power is a big player in Sinton’s issue but he has 2 foot more TT length, tire and suspension factors that play in here too. He also has about 4" more wheel base.Sinton's scales data indicated his front axle load, when hitched with WD applied, was 120# less than unhitched. The data also indicated the WD system had transferred 200# (14.3% of the TW) to the TT axles. If the load transferred to the TT axles were increased to 257# (18.4% of the TW), the front axle load would be returned to the unhitched value.
Increasing the WD bar load has a double effect: 1) it increases the DC friction force, and 2) it increases the load on the TV's front axle. In Stinton's case, both of these should give improved yaw stability.
Ron
RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
---(Ideally WD puts 25% on the TT axles, 50% on the rear axle and 25% on the front axles; but ideal is not ideal in all cases).---I assume the percentages you're stating pertain to distribution of tongue weight. If so, can you please explain from where you get this information.
There are virtually NO cases in which a 25%/50%/25% distribution of tongue weight would be ideal. In fact, it is highly unlikely that any normal TV/TT combination could be set up to achieve such a distribution.
Ford, GMC, Equal-i-zer, and Reese recommend that the WD system should be adjusted so that the height of the front of the TV is approximately the same before and after the TT is attached with WD applied. This means that the load on the front axle should be approximately the same before and after the TT is attached.
If the load on the front axle is the same before and after, it means none (0%) of the tongue weight ends up on the front axle. For many TV/TT combinations, proper adjustment of the WD will put about 70-80% of the tongue weight on the TV's rear axle and about 20-30% on the TT axles. The load on the front axle might be about +/- 10% of the tongue weight.
I have actually had one person on this forum tell me the scales are slightly inaccurate as a reason to be wary.Perhaps you're referring to this post in which I was quoting from a trucking magazine which states that, "Cat Scales are accurate within 80 pounds---". The scales data in this post show a 40# discrepancy in GCW between the first and second weighings. This could result from the first TT axle load reading being 20# to high and the second TT axle load reading being 20# to low. This, in turn, probably caused the indicated amount of load transferred to the TT axles to calculate as 160# rather than a value of 200# which would be more in agreement with the rest of the scales data.
But, if the inaccuracy is the same and the truck/trailer is measured at the same scale each time then that inaccuracy is minimized. If it reads 50 pounds low, it reads 50 pounds low all three axles and that is what is important, the relative changes as much as the absolutes.That's not the way scales inaccuracies usually work. The inaccuracies usually are random. A real 4000# load might "weigh" anywhere from 3920# to 4080#. And, if the "80# accuracy" is a statistical average, the range of readings might be more than +/- 80#.
Ron
RE: trailer aerodynamics
Driving in a stock pickup with the tailgate dropped won't save gas
Blowing Away the Tailgate Myth
These results probably apply when towing a TT; but less so when towing a 5er.
Ron
RE: Experience with 30+ foot TT on a 1/2 ton
Interesting point...., it would be equally interesting to know why a single OEM would place a length rating on only one of it's SUV's, but not other SUV's/Trucks in its line-up based on the same research.
Jeep specifies a 30' maximum length for both the Commander and the Grand Cherokee. I have not bothered to check any other vehicles in their line-up.
Ron
RE: WD Hitch Setup
As an aside, when I changed out my OEM receiver with the beefy aftermarket update, before I started I counted tongue jack cranks from ball contact to the point where I could just barely snap the bracket with my hand (no helper bar) and then replicated that same number of cranks with the new hitch (one hole higher on the shank) to get me to that same number of links and head tilt, and resultant spring bar tension/weight transfer. I haven't weighed it yet to verify, but I feel this should have gotten me almost on the nut to where I was with the old hitch. Your opinion, how accurate do think this techinique is? I believe it also would be handy to know in order to check your set-up regarding wear or breakage. I'm at 33 cranks from ball contact to latch snap-over. What cha' think?
When you said, "and then replicated that same number of cranks with the new hitch (one hole higher on the shank) to get me to that same number of links and head tilt, and resultant spring bar tension/weight transfer.", did you mean that you did achieve the same spring bar tension/weight transfer. Or, did you mean you were hoping to do so?
Let's assume your beefy aftermarket receiver has less pitch-axis rotation than did the OEM receiver. Then, when you apply a pitch-axis torque by lifting the rear of the TV with the tongue jack, the rear ends of the WD bars would not tilt upward as much as with the OEM receiver. This means you would have to raise the jack higher to get the bars up to the "no helper bar" level.
However, you mentioned the new hitch is one hole higher on the shank. This means the bars initially are at a higher level than with the OEM receiver. This change would mean you would not have to raise the jack as high to get to the "no helper bar" level.
So, the effects of the more beefy receiver and raising the hitch head one hole would tend to cancel each other; and it is quite possible you would get about the same amount of load transfer with the same number of turns of the jack crank.
However, the only way to know for sure is to make a trip to the scales.
Ron
RE: Sherline tongue weight multiplier for tongue jack
Mike, you can easily calculate what the multiplier should be.
Let X be the distance from the ball coupler to the midpoint between the TT's axles.
Let Y be the distance from the tongue jack to the midpoint between the axles.
Then, the multiplier is X/Y.
For example, if the distance from the coupler to axles is 22' and the distance from the jack to axles is 20', then the multiplier for jack load divided by coupler load is 22/20 = 110%. Or, coupler load is equal to jack load divided by 1.1.
Ron
RE: WD Hitch Setup
5) Hook up trailer on truck and hook up WD. Remeasure all wheel wells.
a) If the rear settled lower more than the front, increase tension on the bars.
b) If the front settled more than the back, decrease tension on the bars.
Please note that in the Set-Up Procedure, Les states:
... Measure the truck wheel wells again... If your w.d bar adjustment is sufficient, the truck should have settled downward approximately the same distance at all 4 wheel well measurements...
The word "approximately" is important. It does not mean you should try to get equal settling at front and rear.
Ford's recommendation for your truck is:
When hooking-up a trailer using a load-equalizing hitch, always use the following procedure:
1. Park the unloaded vehicle on a level surface. With the ignition on and all doors closed, allow the vehicle to stand for several minutes so that itcan level.
2. Measure the height of a reference point on the front and rear bumpers at the center of the vehicle.
3. Attach the trailer to the vehicle and adjust the hitch equalizers so that the front bumper height is within 1/2 in. (13 mm) of the reference point. After proper adjustment, the rear bumper should be no higher than in Step 2.
GM has a similar recommendation for their tow vehicles.
You should not try to achieve equal settling at the front and rear wheelwells. You should try to get the front of the TV to return to the unhitched height. If you do that, the rear end should be okay also. When the WD hitch is properly adjusted, you will end up with approximately 70-80% of the tongue weight on the TV's rear axle with the remainder of the tongue weight being transferred to the TT's axles.
Ron
RE: Hensley Review
I'm guessing that the excessive amount of "bump" experienced by Mr. Thompson (CASADT) was due to an excessive amount of lateral "play" between the drawbar and the hitch receiver and/or between drawbar and hitch head.
The operation of the four-bar linkage is very sensitive to any relative yaw angle between receiver and drawbar and between drawbar and hitch head. Although a hand-held camera does not give a good fixed reference between truck and drawbar or between drawbar and hitch head, it does appear to me as though there is some "yaw-slack" between truck and hitch head.
If the lower unit of the four-bar linkage has only a couple degrees of yaw-axis rotation relative to the hitch receiver, the linkage will cause the upper unit (to which the TT is attached) to rotate several degrees and also move laterally.
If you have a drawbar which is too small for the receiver tube and/or a receiver which is too large for the drawbar, the drawbar can move side-to-side relative to the opening of the receiver. If the TV makes a turn, the drawbar can be angled in the receiver and the pitch-axis torque imposed by the WD bars will generate a friction force which can hold the drawbar against one side of the receiver opening.
When the TV turns the other way, the lateral force acting in the opposite direction can exceed the friction force holding the drawbar against the side of the receiver; and the drawbar can suddenly shift to the other side of the receiver. It only takes a couple degrees of swinging of the drawbar to result in several inches of lateral movement of the ball coupler.
Mr. Thompson stated "The swiveling hitch mechanism on the Hensley was swinging around the hitch head until it hit the "stops" with a big thud." The "stops" in the HA do not come into effect unitl the rotation of the upper unit exceeds 80 degrees -- considerably more than any rotation shown in the OP's video.
I'm guessing the feeling of hitting the "stops" as reported by the OP more likely was the result of the starting and sudden stopping of relative yawing between the lower unit and the TV.
CASADT stated "The unit was actually a refurbished unit and it looked brand new." Perhaps the front of the drawbar was worn so it was too small for the receiver. Perhaps the rear of the drawbar and/or the inside of the hitch head were worn. Perhaps the receiver opening on the new truck was a bit too large. Any of these could contribute to what the OP observed.
One final observation -- Mr. Thompson's article stated "At $3000.00 plus shipping the bill is indeed big for this supposed miracle towing setup." The cost does not seem to be consistent with a refurbished unit.
Ron
RE: Equalizer hitch question
---For the trip home I added another washer (up to 6 now). For the first time, the front axle measures 1/4 inch lower than unloaded, and the rear axle measures 1 1/4 lower than unloaded. Handling is definitely different than any other setting so far, but it seems to be an improvement. On a level paved surface, with the electric jack maxed out, I have to use the lever to get the bars on the brackets, and it takes some effort.
You might be transferring too much load to the front axle.
Remember -- GMC recommends:
When using a weight distributing hitch, the hitch must be adjusted so the distance {from ground to front wheel well} remains the same both before and after coupling the trailer to the tow vehicle.
Ron
RE: Hensley MFG. true control brake controler
FYI, on the topic of upgrading tires . . . a few years ago we upgraded the front tires on our Beaver Patriot DP. The Beaver came with Toyo M124Z 265/75R22.5 LR "G" tires. Beaver designed the coach with as much weight forward as possible to counter the heavy Cummins hanging out the back end. The result was that the front axle was loaded to 100% capacity even after shifting weight aft as much as possible. The coach tended to plow in the turns like a FWD car. :( So, we upgraded the front tires to Toyo M140 275/70R22.5 LR "H" tires. The steering was far more responsive and the coach was easily 'hustled' on winding mountain roads outpacing most traffic.
Steve, I was buying most of what you were selling; but I'm having a little trouble with the last part of your last sentence.
"---and the coach was easily 'hustled' on winding mountain roads outpacing most traffic."
Our Windsor might be a little heavier than your Patriot; but it has, I believe, an additional 100 hp. And, I've never been able to make it 'hustle' on winding mountain roads, and it hardly ever outpaces other traffic.
Perhaps the problem is in the dismal G670RV 295/80R22.5 "H" front tires. If I upgraded to wider 315/80R22.5 "L" tires, do you think I could get enough added traction to outpace the other traffic on winding mountain roads. Perhaps you could give me some driving lessons? :)
Ron
