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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

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NewsW

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Posted: 03/01/12 11:22am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BenK wrote:

Understand and also hypothesize that RFID's will, too soon, be embedded into OEM
components. Plus all sorts of after market components/systems

That will then be captured into the PROM and read by the vehicle OEM

Of course all encrypted with the OEM the only one with the key(s)

I licensed out the basis for RFID's when was in SunLabs. Smart Chip and was
for the good of mankind (medical cards and ID cards back then)

Then all too soon strain gauges at key, high stress areas.

All of the information is there and now all it will take is to stitch
it all together. Especially now that memory is cheap enough to have
lots and lots...

Consumer fraud has done this and bean counter mentality in all OEMs loves this
potential 'control' over their products.

Feel for Ford, but just a tiny bit...as they are the ones who brought out their
6.0L diesel, so they basically brought it on themselves....as any OEM who produces
an inferior product does to themselves

Back on the Japanese...they dropped bad dealerships like hot potatoes
and dealt fairly with their customers. Detroit lost me on their cars
back in the 70's. Still a Detroit full sized truck guy, but at times
they make it tough...and the fact that the Japanese CEO's and upper
management has not adopted Detroit (American corporate) bean counter
bottom line metrics. The latest Toyota throttle fiasco is telling...



Transmission of data from vehicles on the road via RF is in the discussion stage (OBDIII) and may be a decade in coming.. but it will come.

The data you speak about have been captured for quite sometime (on the 6.0, with the computer upgrade done in 2005 model year) and the data quietly amassed.

My understanding is that they were reluctant to use the data until Legal found a way, and that was done in 2008 model year with yet another software upgrade and the legal notice in the manual.

That is why you never hear from people with a 2008 or later model much anymore bragging about their "undetectable" mod after a warranty denial. They quietly vanish into cyberspace with the bill between their legs and only sing soprano to their (off line) drinking buddies.


Back to the Japanese... they lost a lot of credibility when a certain major manufacturer denied in front of Congress that there is a problem.

Much later, after the dust settled, if you read the fine print of a certain NASA report, it identified tin whiskers as the most likely culprit.

That was after the politician master waved the same report and gave the manufacturer a clean bill of health, with the public happily hoodwinked.

Since you are ex Sun, you will also know about the capacitor caper, where the stolen electrolyte formula failed to do the job, and capacitors leaked and exploded, causing hundreds of millions (industry wide) worth of warranty (and extended courtesy) repairs and replacements of gear all the way up and down the line.

Well before you retired, a certain Texas based large buyer of DRAM solved the price crash problem (around 1996) by demanding a refund of the difference between what they paid (and took delivery of) and current market, causing the supplier who had thought they had a business model invulnerable to market swings to take a deep hit, and in turn, precipitating their exit from the DRAM business. No doubt some purchasing VP got a great bonus, but he ain't no friend of mine!

Said thieving outfit then figured out how to Carly favor and merged itself into nothingness, subsequently being Hurded around until Apocalypse came along briefly, and now it is being driven by a pawn shop dealer.

You may also have come across the Congressional hearings on counterfeit parts last year, with testimony that would make your skin crawl. Yet children still seem to think it is OK to recycle parts or to buy them from "distribution" like eBay, and expect it to work!

* This post was edited 03/01/12 11:39am by NewsW *

ricatic

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Posted: 03/01/12 11:51am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Powerdude wrote:

Wow.

I dunno about you, but I like to understand how stuff works, before doing anything with it.

Did you link this to FTE too?


This has been posted at FTE more than once. It precipitated a hot discussion that required banning those that felt Ford was handling the issue poorly...you know... the Shame on Ford guy's.

to goducks, the "dead horse guy",

Why do you look upon the providing of requested information in that way? Is not the expansion of knowledge why this forum is so successful? I would say the failing of Ford to support their decision to use the Bosch CP4.2 HPFP in their 6.7 diesel engine and the subsequent discussion is far from dead...it has only just started. There are more failures, with the standard Ford warranty denial, happening weekly.

The insurance company's are not going to keep taking it on the chin. When that happens, owners are going start to fight back. Ford has been lucky to date that the majority of the owners have accepted the failure as water induced, found out that insurance will cover the damage and breathed a sigh of relief that it " whew, that only cost me my deductible". When the $10,000 to $12,000 repair bills begin to be denied by the insurance company's, the stuff will hit the fan.

Is this discussion relevant...you bet it is

Regards


Ricatic
Debbie and Savannah the Wonderdachsund
2009 Big Horn 3055RL
2006 Chevrolet Silverado 3500 Dually LTX with the Gold Standard LBZ Engine and Allison Transmission
2011 F350 Lariat SRW CC SB 4WD 6.7 Diesel POS Gone Bye Bye

Perrysburg Dodgeboy

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Posted: 03/01/12 11:58am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

As far as collecting data goes VW,BMW,MB,AUDI and I bet others have been doing this. Everytime I took my 97 Jetta tdi into the dealer they were required to downloand all info from the ecm and send it to VW.


2015 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab SWB 4X4 Eco-diesel. For your safety "Slower Eco-diesels Keep Right"

Engineer9860

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Posted: 03/01/12 12:11pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I am willing to buy anyone's Ford.

I don't care what options it has, or what color it is. Heck, I don't even need to know year/make/model.

We can negotiate a price sight unseen, if you just tell me how much it weighs.







For that matter it doesn't even have to be a Ford. It can be a Chevrolet, Dodge, Jeep, Caterpillar, Euclid, Snapper.......















In Memoriam: Liberty Belle


NewsW

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Posted: 03/01/12 12:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Rickatic:


Let's be clear for anyone new joining this discussion:

There are 2 avenues to get the bill paid with a warranty denial for cases where the owner is not at fault (e.g. putting DEF in fuel tank) and where accurate records are kept.

A) If Ford says it is water in fuel

(No obvious negligence like continuing to drive 3 weeks with WIF light lit).

If you have a receipt from the place where you last bought fuel, and the company is a reputable one (not Azim's cheap no name diesel by the barrel, or Uncle Tom's first rate biodiesel from the farm down the road):

The Fuel dealer's supplier, e.g. BP, Exxon, etc. will normally just pay the repair bill

B) If the Fuel dealers don't, and you have comprehensive insurance coverage, that is covered less the deductible up to the limit of the policy unless you have a non-standard comprehensive policy.

e.g. if you have fire and theft only, too bad.


-------------

Insurance companies bundle these claims up, and watch for unusually large amounts paid out for certain manufactures / fuel dealers, etc.

When they feel the evidence is good enough (which is well below the standard of proof in law), they simply send the offending party they identified a bill for the claims paid out.

The offender may dicker a bit, but normally, they just pay up and shut up.

In this case, it is either going to be Ford or more likely, Bosch.

That all happens in background, as the moment you file an insurance claim, you have granted the insurer subrogation rights.

* This post was edited 03/01/12 12:23pm by NewsW *

NewsW

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Posted: 03/01/12 12:24pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Perrysburg Dodgeboy wrote:

As far as collecting data goes VW,BMW,MB,AUDI and I bet others have been doing this. Everytime I took my 97 Jetta tdi into the dealer they were required to downloand all info from the ecm and send it to VW.



On the late model cars, especially hybrids, they know how often and hard you sneezed.

gmcsmoke

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Posted: 03/01/12 12:26pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NewsW wrote:

Rickatic:


Let's be clear for anyone new joining this discussion:

There are 2 avenues to get the bill paid with a warranty denial for cases where the owner is not at fault (e.g. putting DEF in fuel tank) and where accurate records are kept.

A) If Ford says it is water in fuel

(No obvious negligence like continuing to drive 3 weeks with WIF light lit).

If you have a receipt from the place where you last bought fuel, and the company is a reputable one (not Azim's cheap no name diesel by the barrel, or Uncle Tom's first rate biodiesel from the farm down the road):

The Fuel dealer's supplier, e.g. BP, Exxon, etc. will normally just pay the repair bill

B) If the Fuel dealers don't, and you have comprehensive insurance coverage, that is covered less the deductible up to the limit of the policy unless you have a non-standard comprehensive policy.

e.g. if you have fire and theft only, too bad.


-------------

Insurance companies bundle these claims up, and watch for unusually large amounts paid out for certain manufactures / fuel dealers, etc.

When they feel the evidence is good enough (which is well below the standard of proof in law), they simply send the offending party they identified a bill for the claims paid out.

The offender may dicker a bit, but normally, they just pay up and shut up.

In this case, it is either going to be Ford or more likely, Bosch.

That all happens in background, as the moment you file an insurance claim, you have granted the insurer subrogation rights.



You my friend need to wake up from the dream world you're living in. Because there's no way in BP or Exxon is going to pay a $12k repair bill because you claim "bad fuel".

NewsW

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Posted: 03/01/12 12:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

gmcsmoke wrote:


You my friend need to wake up from the dream world you're living in. Because there's no way in BP or Exxon is going to pay a $12k repair bill because you claim "bad fuel".



My experience with major brands is, upon presentation of solid evidence, paid promptly.

FYI, I have also been paid promptly by major suppliers (e.g. Allied-Signal) when solid evidence of failure of their component was presented to them.

They were all more than fair.



Example of a solid "bad fuel" claim.

Tank nearly empty, XYZ pulls up to ABC Major Brand Diesel Station.

Engine, everything running fine.

Fills up with full tank of ABC Major Brand Diesel.

Engine starts, coughs, then dies, WIF light comes on.

Immediately towed to dealer, who discover 10+ gallons of water in fuel tank.

Contacted ABC Major Brand Corporate immediately.

(In background, ABC halts sale of suspect fuel from that pump, then sends out tech to check, and alas, find tank half full of water).

ABC Major Brands gulps...

And Pay.


What also helps:

No previous claims history (or similar claims).

No lawyer involved.

No claims for damages, etc.

Limited out of pocket claim (just the frigging bill, not padded).

No nonsense.

BenK

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Posted: 03/01/12 12:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ricatic wrote:

snip....
Is this discussion relevant...you bet it is


Yup, and try, too often but will continue...I'm retired.... , and
have some time between taking care of mom and the other stuff going on
(busier than ever)

What folks don't understand is that lawyers and bean counters manage
everything.

They do NOT care, generally, about their product...just the bottom line
that their bonuses, options and raises are based (why still lots of
foreign firms have exec's who still manage their product, as they are NOT
quarterly based in their horizon).

How does Carly's acquisition affect all of this?...well, today's vehicles
are more computers than anything else. Saw that when GM asked some guys
from SunLabs to take a look at their EV1, which was JAVA'ised. Found
that they had it almost right, but independent systems fighting to
see who was going to be the master vs slave (my other background is
in systems controls for industrial systems). Once 'one' was told it was
the master and the rest slaves...all was well...after a few other tweaks

My fav director of marketing left to go work for Compaq and what the
heck was that? Texas???? when he is a left coast kind of guy... Well
he knew that they were packaging themselves for acquisition and
he brought with him some of my fav scientists who now work for that
dieing corporation

Again: ".....Is this discussion relevant...you bet it is...." take
Apple, my prime example of this metric, and how they got up there,
lost their way, to then find themselves again

I've worked with/against both Jobs and Wozniak (both of them, the
Apple guy and my boss...VP of engineering at Sun). Jobs got Apple up
there, then the board decided they wanted a MBA (bean counter) to
take it from there. They hired Sculley (some other huge corporation,
think Pepsi) who is the ultimate bean counter (MBA...nothing wrong
with an MBA if they have the vision to manage their 'product', but
most only manage to the bottom line)

Sculley ran Apple almost down to the ground with the quarterly bottom
line metrics.

Jobs created several other companies and the last one, Apple acquired.

Since the board was falling out of favor with Sculley, they put Jobs
back in as CEO...he switched to managing their product and now it is
one of the most valued corporations in the world...after almost failing
just a few years ago

Again, how does this apply to this topic...well I see that this automotive
OEM is managing their bottom line (quarterly horizon or vision) and
losing the battle all the while profitable quarterly

If they had the vision to manage their product, they would have taken
or changed course after it was clear what was going on, IMHO

I say manage your product, not your quarterly bottom line

PS...I know this well as while in college working part time as a designer
and designed the system to the prime who was on contract with Ford
to modernize some factories and their suppliers...presented to one
GM who funded this....got to the 'issues and risks'.

Went over their ROI and that they would be in the red for 4-6 years
depending on sales and margins (we were going to increase their margins
by a large factor)

He turned to ask his #1, what is ROI...I heard that and was immensely
surprised....Spoke up and told him...he then got up and on his way out
the door...told his #1 to kill this

This was in the early 70's when the Japanese were starting to eat
Detroit's lunch

When at SunLabs, one of my teams found a way to change the CPU, a
multi scalier (now Intel calls it multi threaded). Sales folks called
me in and my team was installing them at a Ford design center.

Found that it was the math section that was killing Intel (that is when
they found that it rounded wrong).

Got tossed out of that design center....talked to some designers while
waiting for some of their PCs to boot (slaves to our servers).

Found that they were reducing the hard gold plating from 5 microns to
something around 1.5 microns. What???...hey do you know that in a high
vibration environment...that will wear through and become a potential
high resistance connection?...Also found that they were reducing
the wire gauge...custom gauge to boot...that VP of engineering got
wind of my comments and had me tossed out of that building...knew
right then that Fords would have higher incidences of fires...

Why I say Detroit still doesn't get it...


-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...

rjsd1

NW Georgia

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Posted: 03/01/12 12:44pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I just don't think it would be that easy.


2011 F350 XLT CC DRW 2wd
08 Crossroads Cruiser 30sk


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