OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.
Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!
If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.
We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.
Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.
Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.
Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.
I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.
Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.
Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!
* This post was
edited 06/23/04 10:31pm by blt2ski *
05 Chev CC D/A LS Dooley
92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
00 Chev C2500, V5700, 4L80E, 4.10, base truck, no options!
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer
3 Single axle utility trailers
13.25 mpg high towing
10.29 mpg low towing
An average of 11.46 MPG after towing 2309.6 Miles
Very few gassers if any are going to touch that kind of mileage towing. That and 37% of my total miles have been towing. With that kind of towing miles it just made sense to buy a diesel.
PS. Total towing miles actually equals 2989.5 of 8044.2 total miles. I only used miles where the entire tank was towing, otherwise my average would be much higher, but not a true picture of towing mileage.
There is no way to win this....Everybody's situation is different.
For me it's simple, my truck is paid for. It has less than 60K miles, meticulously maintained. Anal service intervals with synthetics will allow it go many, many miles. My truck is lighter than a diesel allowing me to carry more. With the mods I have 320 hp and 440 lb ft of torque, did I mention I'm lighter than a diesel I get 9-11 mpg in the mountains of AK fully loaded (10,500 without the trailer). My insurance is cheap. I am a professional diesel tech and am very aware of the benefits of the diesel engine. I just don't want to listen to one on my own time...I see no reason to take a hit on a vehicle I have babied and modified to upgrade to a $45K truck right now, I have other hobbies, a new house and a family to spoil.
Hey blt2ski, this truck came outta Yakima.....
This was written about 1/1/03 and reflects my numbers gathered from the model years 2000 to 2002, 7.3 PSD and V10 engines. It appears all current (2004 model) diesels, PSD, CTD and the D-Max have slightly improved in fuel mileage since that time.
Note my savey insight into predicting the current price of fuel...
Where did I get my average mpg numbers? I got them from reading numerous mpg threads on many different forums over the past 4yrs and should be a pretty consistant fuel mileage average from reports of people who use miles driven divided by gallons used, a known accurate method for computing fuel mileage.
They did not come from anyone using the factory computer to report fuel mileage as some puters are off quite a bit. How? Example; engines being chipped are known to have extreamly high false mpg numbers because of the chip.
Want to read 99mpg? Reset the trip puter at the top of a mountain then descend the grade without using the fuel pedal and when your close to the bottom of the grade take a puter reading and mpg be up there in no mans world.
Why? The fuel is shut off too the engine when the RPM is above idle without the fuel pedal depressed.
Why do some people report extreamly good fuel mileage while other report horrible numbers?
You need to compare apples with apples. Alot has to do with the way the truck is driven. With a light foot and 60mph maximum towing speed will yeild better fuel economy than pulling at 70mph with a heavy foot. A truck pulling 16000GCW will get better fuel mileage than one pulling 20000GCW. A 3:73 axle ratio will get more mpg than a 4:10 ratio. The point is to look at the whole ball park just not the number you want to hear or see.
Note: Thease are only ball park figures although I did try to gather realestic numbers to work with. Example: my acutal truck cost less T&L, Wal-Mart priced Delo oil and Motorcraft filter.
I used the same fuel cost per gallon for both diesel and gas but in reality diesel will "average" about $.20gal lower than gasoline on a yearly average. If one would relfect the $.20gal savings, then the diesel savings would increase substantially
V10 towing 20,000lbs GCW @ 8mpg average using 5k oil changes for 10,000 total miles
Oil and filter= $16eh= $32net
Fuel $1.50gal average= $1875
PSD towing 20,000lbs GCW @ 12mpg average using 5k oil changes for 10,000 total miles
Oil and filter= $32eh= $64net
Fuel $1.50gal average= $1250
100k= PSD total fuel and oil change cost $13,140
100k= V10 total fuel and oil change cost $19,070
Diesel wins by $5930 per 100k miles
My 2K2 diesel cost $3,450 vs V10 $500= $2950 diff
$5930-$2950= $2,980 diesel savings the first 100k miles.
Assuming fuel prices will stay the same (ya right) $1.50gal for 300k miles a PSD saves $14,840 in fuel.
A V-10 cost for the same truck as spec'd below $30,900 or $.103/mile for 300k miles, I already dicounted the up-front cost of the diesel engine.
I paid $30,900 for my PSD truck so my net cost per mile is $30,900-$14,840= $16,060 or $.0535/mile for 300k miles or 1/2 the V10 cost.
Lets take it one step more. Lets say the average price of fuel, gas and diesel, in the next 5yrs averages $2.10/gal, from 5yrs to 10yrs averages $3.10/gal, using 30k total miles/yr at 70% empty and 30% towing 20,000lbs GCW, V10 8mpg towing 14mpg empty, PSD 12mpg towing 20mpg empty, then we get:
V10= empty fuel cost= $39,000
Towing fuel cost= $29,251 or $68,252 gross fuel cost for 10yrs
PSD= empty fuel cost= $27,300
Towing fuel cost= $19,500 or $46,800 gross fuel cost for 10yrs
PSD saves $21,415 in fuel cost over a V10
Have fun in your hunt for the new TV
* This post was
edited 06/27/04 09:56am by T_Bone *
02 F350, 4x6, CC, DRW, PSD, 6spd, 3:73
32ft Serria 10yr 100% Solar
Please do not trust everything you read on the internet. Use only valid engineering information from well established Companys.
Buy UNION Work UNION
It pays off in the long run !
I get 21 miles a gallon vs. 13 for a comparable gas engine.
I have 270,000 miles on my diesel truck and it runs like new, the only gas vehicle I've had go over 200,000 miles was with the help of a new engine at 145,000. In other words, I can drive a diesel twice as long as a gasser, I.E. I don't have to buy a new vehicle every three years. New trucks are expensive.
I can pull anything I want to.
Diesels sound cool.
Did I mention that they last twice as long, so I don't have to buy a new truck every three years. New trucks are expensive!
I will start by explaining why I traded my 03 1500HD CC 6l 3.73 for an 04 2500HD CC DMax 3.73.
I was quite happy with my 1500HD. It got respectable gas mileage empty (up to 20 on the highway) and acceptable when towing my 5er (around 8). The 6l can produce 300 HP which is more than I need for my setup. The problem came when we started planning our summer vacation. We are going to travel through BC and then south through WA, OR and spend some time in CA. Then it will be east to AZ, north through NV, ID and MT (did I get all the 2 character references right? ). When I started looking at that route, it occurred to me that we would be travelling through some of the worse conditions you could ask for in RVing: mountainous terrain in a desert. Looking at my 5er/TV combo, I thought I should do a little research to find out what kind of problems I may face especially considering that my 5er is slightly over the max weight limit GM recomends for the 1500HD. What I found was that the 6l and 4L80 tranny are installed in such a way that they have, in my opinion, insufficient cooling. I was looking at the specs for an 04 Burb and, inspite of the fact that the 6l develops more power (325HP) than the 8.1l (320HP) in that vehicle, the 8.1 has a far greater cooling capacity than the 6l. So, I started looking at my truck to see what I could do to remedy the situation. I could replace the 3 core rad with a 4 core one from an 8.1l vehicle. I could also add another tranny cooler to keep the 4L80 within limits. But, I figured that, if anything were to happen in, say, Arizona, I would be a long way from home with my family stranded on the side of the highway and a big repair bill. If my truck had had an Allison, I would probably still have it because the Allison is installed with sufficient cooling capacity to handle anything my 6l could throw at it. I did not have the same feeling about the 4L80.
At this point, I could have gone with either the DMax or the 8.1 and addressed all of my concerns. But, the fuel efficiency of the DMax won that race. Plus the fact that getting an aux fuel tank for a diesel is far easier than getting one for a gasser made me decide to get the DMax a few years earlier than I had planned. Yes, I took a depreciation hit, but there is less likelyhood that my family and I will be stranded.
On the HP vs torque part, I think you should include the example Peter (Aquaduct) gave in the "Drawbacks of deisel" thread. I have been using a turbine vs diesel comparison for torque info and, while technically accurate, most people cannot relate to a turbine. Peter's example uses a Cat C12 and, while most people will not know what that is either, most can relate to big rigs and heavy machinery. To see that an engine from a sports car develops the same amount of power as that Cat behemouth would go a long way in explaining how torque and HP are related.
Another issue that is usually raised is the concept of a "screaming" engine. That is a very subjective issue, though. What does "screaming" mean, anyway? My DMax has a max rpm of 3000 and that is 66% higher than the Cat C12 referenced above. My 6l would run 50% higher than my DMax. Does that mean that my DMax is a screamer? Does "screaming" simply mean an engine running above a particular rpm? Is it a feeling or a sound? You have to admit that my DMax will make more noise at 3000 rpm than my gasser would make at 4500 rpm, so which one would be screaming? I think that this area is far too subjective to be of any real value. Test drive the unit you are considering buying and decide for yourself.
Lastly, I think that people should be advised to look at the whole vehicle, not just one part of it. Before we bought our DMax, we took an 03 Dodge 2500 CTD Quad Cab 5 speed for an overnight test drive. We were heading back into the dealer the next day to tell them that we would take it and I weighed the truck with my family in it and a full tank of fuel. It turned out that I could not legally tow my 5er with that truck because its pin weight out put the truck over its GVW. At that point, it makes absolutely no difference what engine is under the hood because the truck cannot do what I need it to do.
Good luck to anyone looking to buy a new TV. Get the best you can afford and enjoy it.
The truck listed below is the first diesel I've ever owned. I bought it in February. The 6.0L PSD is far and away the best running engine I have ever owned. It gets significantly better fuel milage than my '03 F-150 5.4L. The noise issue is really only relevant close to and outside of the vehicle. Diesel exhaust does smell, and has health implications as well, but I don't notice it except near the tailpipe.
The diesel runs extremely strong with or without my 7,500 pound TT behind it. With a programmer, the 6.0L PSD will easily out accelerate a Hemi or a 5.4L turbocharged gasser.
Just my opinion, but I don't think anyone will be sorry about chosing a diesel. I've been around diesel engines in fire trucks at work for 20+ years, but I had no clue they could run like my F-250 does.
Back in Aug 2000 my wife wanted a full size 4x4 SUV that gets good fuel mileage and dutch doors like our Astro van so the PSD Excursion was the only one with both. Then after three years she wanted the new 2003 model with DVD player etc and we purchased the 2003 4x4 6.0 PSD because she loved going to Myrtle Beach SC (700+ miles) with no fuel stops. Here in NJ the Ford dealers don't like to take gas Excursions in on trade and if we had a V10 Excursion we would have lost as much as $10,000 vs the PSD on trade. And the diesel advantage increases when we tow our 41 ft TT since it has much more torque and fuel mileage vs the V10 and less fuel stops with a 60+ ft combo is good.