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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > "A modest proposal"...half ton trucks and SUVs...

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BenK

SF BayArea

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Joined: 04/18/2002

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Posted: 07/09/12 01:09pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Jonathan Swift should love this...

This weekend read "A modest proposal" with the 9 year old and had this
association pop up in my mind of the 'half ton' mentality here and
most everywhere else...

All of the OEMs know this...that by far the largest percentage of buyers
of TV's or just pickups not used to tow are 'half ton'

Folks everywhere and here insist on only buying a 'half ton', not matter
what they 'need' or what its GVWR is...if it does NOT have a marketing
badge of 'half ton', the will NOT buy it

Then the newbies who come here asking for advice to then get mixed up
in the 'half ton' debate(s) that further confuse them when the fake
half tonners pitch their reasoning.

One poster continues to insist that theirs is a 'half ton', even
though it is over 1,000 lbs more than some 'regular' half ton range
It is still badged as a 'half ton', albeit with a suffix modifier..."HD"

So here is my modest proposal....drop all marketing badging for '3/4 ton'
and '1 ton'.

All new trucks and SUVs will now be called 'half ton' with their
marketing badges !

Then the suffix modifiers that these folks seemingly know like the
back of their hands

'HD', 'Super Duty', 'Heavy Duty', 'Max', 'Super Duper', 'King', 'Monarch',
'Supreme', 'Top Notch', etc, etc, etc

Would that then reduce the confusion for the newbies and even folks
who have years, decades and thousands of miles towing experience?

Heck, that might even have those who use the derogatorily term: "Weight Police"
from ever being used again

Makes just as much sense to me, as just using their GVWR's as a reference
point


-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...

blt2ski

Kirkland, Wa

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Posted: 07/09/12 01:22pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

DOT has already done this. IIRC the correct gvwr breaks......

Class 1 is under 6K lbs, ie half ton
Class 2 6001-10K lbs, LD is reality 6001-8400, ie mut meet emissions specs HD is 8401-10K lbs, most typical 8 luggers.
Class 3 10001-13500
class 4 13501 - 16K lbs
Class 5 16001-19500
Class 6 19501 - 26K
Class 7 26001-33K
Class 8 33K and above

Reality is, many of the SW 35 series trucks are in the DOT class 3, where as some of th older dually's, ie the ones with a 10K gvwr from the factory, were in reality DOT class 2's as they were at the upper end of that range. Some SW 35's are still in the DOT class 2 range with gvwr's less than 10k. So realty should be a 25 or 3/4 ton truck..............

I could care less what the badging on the truck is frankly. You can look at the recent now discontinued GM 4500/5500 models. The 4500 crosses the F450/550 gvwr thresh hold. Meanwhile, you can get a 26K gvwr 5500, max for the 6500 was 25000! BUT the 5500 had the 6.6 dmax as its only engine, gcwr limit was 26K due to the motor and allison tranny. where as the 6500 had I6 motors, and heavier duty allison auto and Spicer manual trannies which were rated higher by those manufactures.

Does not do ANYONE any good to look at badging or equal. Too many examples of what works per say vs what does not! Better IMHO to work with the GVWR/DOT truck class specs to a degree. Then again......MOST 15 series trucks, including the almighty Toyota, would in reality be a 3/4 ton, as it has a gvwr higher than 6001, but less than 10000 lbs, so it fits into the 3/4 or DOT class 2 relm of trucks, granted the LD version, but a 3/4 ton none the less!

Marty


05 Chev CC D/A LS Dooley

92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
00 Chev C2500, V5700, 4L80E, 4.10, base truck, no options!
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer
3 Single axle utility trailers

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rhagfo

Portland, OR

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Joined: 07/06/2012

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Posted: 07/09/12 01:38pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

There is a difference between 1/2 ton and a full 3/4 / 1 ton, it is called a full floating rear axle, and 8 lug wheels.
This is where you gain strength and safety.
The only exception to this is Ford made a F250 with a semi floating 6 lug wheel in the mid 90's.
The HD 1/2 tons still have semi floating axles and at most 6 lug wheels.


Russ & Paula
The Beagles Hedwig and Precious.
Portland, OR.
2001 Dodge 2500 4X4, 5.9 Cummins 5 speed, 3.55 gears, Pacbrake PRXB, DS Power Puck,Bilstien 5100's, 273,000 miles.
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS

"Visit and Enjoy Oregon State Parks"


blt2ski

Kirkland, Wa

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Posted: 07/09/12 01:47pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I have yet to buy a 3/4 ton with a full floating axel! Other than one with a BB gas. All others have been SF, including ones with 8600 gvwr/8 lug rims etc. So even the difference said, can be wrong! The GM 2500HD IIRC with the 6.0 gas has an SF RA, or at least it did. To get an FF, you had to buy the 8.1 or dmax, and you also got an 11.5" R&P vs a 10.5". The Dually 6.0 gas rigs did get a full floater. And even the 35 series full floaters, and NOTHING like the true full floater in my 15.5K 6lug navistar RA! The FF axels in the light duty 25/35 series trucks are semi full floaters, in that the rim does rest on the hub vs lugs, but reality is, they are full load semi floating axels! Last I checked, I could not pull an axel shaft out of my current dually, or the previous two other rigs with GM FF axels with the tires on the ground, rims still bolted on. I have to remove the tires to replace the axel.

You got a full floater with the GM 5.7 diesel back in the early 80's too with 1500 series trucks. As did the 7200 gvwr 1500 trucks with the GM 6.5td, infact, many of these got the 4l80e tranny, not the 700r4/4l60e tranny. As Ben stated, one can not say for positive, a given 15/25/35 series or half vs 3/4 vs 1 ton has this that or the other thing as far as tires, ratings etc goes.

Marty

RobertRyan

Australia

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Posted: 07/09/12 01:47pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

bl2tski wrote:

DOT has already done this. IIRC the correct gvwr breaks......

Class 1 is under 6K lbs, ie half ton
Class 2 6001-10K lbs, LD is reality 6001-8400, ie mut meet emissions specs HD is 8401-10K lbs, most typical 8 luggers.
Class 3 10001-13500
class 4 13501 - 16K lbs
Class 5 16001-19500
Class 6 19501 - 26K
Class 7 26001-33K
Class 8 33K and above


Interesting ,a basic Truck license is required in Australia for what you call a Class 3. Prior to that a normal car license would do. In New Zealand it is now falls into your Class 4 definition, as a result they use a lot more Class C Motorhomes and drivers do have to upgrade their licenses. That is why US HD Pickups are referred to generally as cars, Utes, Big Utes , more uncommonly SUV's. rarely Trucks. Trucks is a term used by some Gen X, Y and "Grey Nomads" who use US Pickups to tow Caravans or 5vers.

rhagfo

Portland, OR

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Posted: 07/09/12 02:15pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blt2ski wrote:

I have yet to buy a 3/4 ton with a full floating axel! Other than one with a BB gas. All others have been SF, including ones with 8600 gvwr/8 lug rims etc. So even the difference said, can be wrong! The GM 2500HD IIRC with the 6.0 gas has an SF RA, or at least it did. To get an FF, you had to buy the 8.1 or dmax, and you also got an 11.5" R&P vs a 10.5". The Dually 6.0 gas rigs did get a full floater. And even the 35 series full floaters, and NOTHING like the true full floater in my 15.5K 6lug navistar RA! The FF axels in the light duty 25/35 series trucks are semi full floaters, in that the rim does rest on the hub vs lugs, but reality is, they are full load semi floating axels! Last I checked, I could not pull an axel shaft out of my current dually, or the previous two other rigs with GM FF axels with the tires on the ground, rims still bolted on. I have to remove the tires to replace the axel.

You got a full floater with the GM 5.7 diesel back in the early 80's too with 1500 series trucks. As did the 7200 gvwr 1500 trucks with the GM 6.5td, infact, many of these got the 4l80e tranny, not the 700r4/4l60e tranny. As Ben stated, one can not say for positive, a given 15/25/35 series or half vs 3/4 vs 1 ton has this that or the other thing as far as tires, ratings etc goes.

Marty


Well every 3/4 ton I have owned had a full floating rear axle and both of the 4X4's also were full floaters.

Dana 80 and Dana 60, you might look it up. This is the case with about 99 percent of the Big 3 3/4 and 1 ton trucks.

Edit: The Dana 60 isn't really a FF as you need to tear the front wheel off and bearing to get the axle out.

* This post was edited 07/09/12 02:29pm by rhagfo *

mowermech

Billings, MT

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Posted: 07/09/12 03:10pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Son-a-gun!
My Dodge Ram 3500 is a Class 4 truck! It is registered at 14K GVW!

I don't know anybody who uses the "half ton" or "three quarter ton" or "one ton" or "ton-and-a-half" etc. designators anymore.
Everybody I know says "1500", "2500", "3500", etc.
Unless, of course, they are talking about a Ford, then they drop one zero.
Or, if they are talking about an old Jeep, it is a J10, J20, etc.


CM1, USN (RET)
2002 Fleetwood Southwind 32V, Ford V10
Toad 1: '06 PT Cruiser, Kar Kaddy dolly
Toy (and Toad 2): 2001 Dodge QC SWB, 360 Magnum, Auto, 4X4
"When seconds count, help is only minutes away!"

blt2ski

Kirkland, Wa

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Posted: 07/09/12 04:10pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I guess my 1981 C2500 with that big ol powerful 105HP 292 I 6 must not have been a true 3/4 ton then, nor is my 2000 with the 255hp 350 a true 3/4 ton, as both have SF C14 axels! The BB and TD 8 lug SW rigs I have bought, had what some would call a full floating axel. None of the SB rigs have had them! Both have 8600 gwr, C6P payload, heavy duty emissions pkg from GM. You get/got the same setup from GM with the old 1500HD, a C14 SF, 4l80E trans, 8 lugs, 10 ply tires, 8600 gvwr and the C6P emissions pkg. NOT ALL 3/4 ton or 25 or DOT class 2 HD trucks have full floaters!

marty

TomG2

Central Illinois

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Posted: 07/09/12 04:25pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Can you imagine the stuff that would be avoided on here if someone asked, "I have a pickup with a 7,000 pound GVWR. Would it be wise to load it up to 9,000 pounds?"

We must like the truths and have truths, not to be confused with tons and half tons. HD or otherwise. I think some of the contributors on here must be on the payroll of the various manufacturers, from some of their answers. Say the same thing often enough and they begin to believe it.

whisperide

Golden Spike area

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Posted: 07/09/12 04:40pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

How the heck can you "people" worry about 8 lug and FF / SF without mentioning the most important difference of all? Why do y'all keep neglecting the frames? Maybe the GM twins are the only ones to use different thicknesses of steel, but the others use different boxing, or different vertical section, or other differentiators.
In NO year will you find any F150 frame to be identical spec to the dame year F350 frame, and likewise with Dodge.
Fitting the 8-lug FF axles to a half-ton is no challenge. These days half tons come with bigger brakes than 1 tons, because the halfs can use 17" wheels and a 17" spare, while the tons and duallies still have to be able to take 16s. Even the ones that come on 17+.
Put 6k of payload on a 1500 frame with an 8-lug FF axle, you're gonna rip the spring hangers loose.
Crash both trucks, empty, into Fort Knox at 85 MPH, any 1-ton is gonna have less damage to the passenger area than the same year / brand of half ton.
The frame is primary. ALL else is secondary.
If we're gonna fix this mess, the first step is to make ALL new pickups be 1-tons. No exceptions. Same for the big SUVs.


'06 GMC C2500HD RCLB gasser 4.10:1, 4L80E, custom camshaft
'84 Trans Am 6.2 diesel, 700R-4, custom Class-3 receiver
'69 F350 dually. GM 6.2 diesel, turbo, 700R-4, NP208 all pending.

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