We also learned that 10 + 100 = 220.
He said $10 a month cell phone, plus $100 a year towing insurance.
That indeed equals $220.
Hint: There are 12 months in a year. :P
The mistake in his math was he said that "$3000-$220=$2880", when what he meant was likely $2780.
In the time it takes to type "you can do a search and read my postings/opinion" yonder... couldn't the essence of that opinion just as quickly be summarized to assist the OP?
IMHO, while the Suburban 6/6 will be an improvement over your current 5.4/4, it may not be as dramatically different as you might be expecting. The high revving will still be required to make the grade. I think you will see more of an improvement in the interior room for your family (if you have one), going from a crew cab to a station wagon.
"I found these by using "19.5" wheels" in a Google search...forged, several different styles of wheels in that size.
American Force wheels"
Using Google to look further into American Force...
Source for mstovall and mattyfz450 quotes...
"I do know that American Force does not manufacture their own wheels. I spoke with them and could not get an answer on where they are made. I called to order a set and was told that they were out until their supplier tooled up to make some more. I did not find out who the manufacturer is, but I was told that American Force was not in control of the schedule. They are supposed to be restocked sometime this month. Rickson told me that AF is made overseas. When I spoke with Southwest Wheel, Jeff and Mike (the owner) told me they would not carry a wheel that was not USA made (chinese wheels =bad hub ID spec's, out of round, lower load capacities and insurance problems-according to them). I decided to go the Alcoa/Accuride route; made in USA."
"The same thing happened to me... I called and talked to the guy for a while trying to find out if they were actually manufactured in the US and he kept avoiding the question and just kept saying that they are located in miami. So i proceeded to ask him a few more times and he got all pissy and said he just answered that question and said I was being annoying??? I was just like really?? complete ... told him Id get my wheels else where. I would stay far away!!!"
Source for OEM MFR quote below:
"We installed numerous sets of the 19.5" American Force direct bolt-on wheels a while back. They did fit well, and the aluminum wheels were good looking.
The problem is that the clearcoat peeled off of the wheels. When we called American Force to warranty the wheels for our customers, we were told that the wheels were out of stock, and that they would deal with the situation when they got them back in inventory. This was over a year ago.
In the meantime, on the advice of American Force, we replaced the wheels for the customers with the ones from American Eagle. Great people over there by the way.
Now that we have the American Force wheels back, they refuse to offer us any help on the cost of the warranty. I have called them numerous times with regard to the issue, and was initially promised $300 per set to offset the cost of repolishing the finish.
Now when I call Ray to check on the money, I am told that "we're done talking buddy. I'm not paying you anything. Sue me."
Note. I purchased and installed 8 sets of these things from the company. Quick math tells you that you still make money if you return these three sets. Quicker math tells you not to ever buy a product from a company who doesnt stand behind it"
Better Business Bureau record for American Force Wheels
BBB® Non-Accredited D- Rating
On a scale of A+ to F, American Force Wheels has a "D-" rating.
Reason for Rating: BBB Ratings System Overview
- 4 complaints closed with BBB in last 3 years
- 3 complaints for Problems with Product / Service
- 2 complaints closed in last 12 months
Source for Jayhawk Trailer quote below:
"Just broke a second American Force wheel, this time steel and a bad weld. No reply from American Force, would say that basically they sell junk with no warranty."
Leaving Google search results aside for a moment, and turning to the American Force website:
There is a direct conflict between one line of American Force Wheel advertising that says "All American Force Wheels come with a lifetime warranty against any manufacturing defects", versus the actual Terms and Conditions that American Force unequivocally states shall supersede any and all other representations made by or on behalf of American Force and/or it's dealers.
TERMS and CONDITIONS]
Wheels from American Force are covered by a limited warranty.
The real warranty does not say "lifetime."
TERMS and CONDITIONS continued:]In case of problems or returns, please contact American Force directly and we will attempt to resolve the problem. In some cases, American Force will authorize a return merchandise authorization to the factory for inspection and in order to make a determination in the validity of the claim. A RMA is required before any returned merchandise will be accepted by American Force Wheels. Packages shipped to American Force Wheels without an RMA number will be returned to the shipper. A 20% restocking fee will be applied on our discretion.
The real warranty is only good "in some cases", to be "determined" by American Force, at their "discretion."
TERMS and CONDITIONS continued:]Important Note
All warranty returns that are reviewed by American Force Wheels warranty return department and found not to be subject to warranty coverage, will be returned to the sender, without repair or replacement, at the senders expense.
It can cost a several hundred dollars to round trip ship a set of large wheels. It doesn't mater how light aluminum wheels are, because shipping costs are also determined by package size. UPS, for example, has a minimum billing weight for any given cubic dimension of packaging that is calculated by multiplying L x W x H of a package in inches, and dividing the result by 166. I recently paid $69.00 to ship package that only weighed 14 lbs. via the slowest, cheapest ground method available. This 14 lb package was 24 x 16 x 19, and therefore the minimum billable weight was 44 lbs, according to UPS's formula.
The smallest market obtainable shipping box that a 19.5" dually dished wheel that is 6.75" wide would require measures 24" x 24" x 12", which is 6,912 cubic inches. Divided by 166, this means that each minimum weight would be 42 lbs, which is not that far off from what the actual weight of the wheel with the box might be. To ground ship that one wheel, with the current fuel surcharge, would be about $66.00. Since a set of wheels cost $3,000, insurance would be prudent, raising the price to $75.00. Multiplied times four wheels, shipping a set one way for warranty inspection will cost $300.00. When that warranty is denied and the wheels are shipped back, there goes another $300.00. So there is an inherent risk of losing $600.00 anytime one even thinks of considering a warranty return.
But is a warranty, even a limited warranty, even available from American Force?
TERMS and CONDITIONScontinued:]This is a limited warranty. Therefore no warranties or representations, expressed or implied, are made.
Verbatim. It gets funnier:
TERMS and CONDITIONS continued:]Every American Force Wheel is custom manufactured to your own style and reference... NO RETURNS ON CUSTOM MADE ITEMS.
(Bold emphasis added, but the ALL CAPS statement is verbatim from American Force, and they wrote it in all caps)
TERMS and CONDITIONS continued:]Please note that wheels that have been mounted with tires are no longer returnable.
Ha ha ha. So once you mount a tire, and then spin balance the tire, and find that it cannot be balanced because the wheel is out of round, then you are SOL, because a tire was mounted. Once you put that wheel on your truck, and after a few hundred miles down the road find that the wheel cracked at the bolt circles, you are SOL, because, guess what, you mounted a tire on the wheel in order to use it on the truck. Hmmmmm.
Back to google search:
Source for MD05 and 2Brak quotes below:
"Last try was American Force thru a company in Florida. They stated that the direct bolts are available purchase a set and was awaiting delivery..... oh wait American Force pull their 19.5 line due to bolt circle cracking. American Force used to make direct bolt for the 10 bolt 450 but had cracking issues at the lugs. (as posted circa 2011... availability status reportedly changed in 2013) These wheel came from China and there must have been some issue with the forging process. There have been several others that made direct bolt wheels again most of them were also built in China and drilled here. PS they are not DOT approved. For each whell sive and bolt pattern the DOT needs to test a bunch to make sure that they are safe. Look at a Big rig aluminum wheel you will see a DOT stamp on it."
"American Force - Wheel blanks from China and although many here state they love them, I know they are no where near the quality as an Alcoa long term. I even doubt they are TRULY forged. I also have heard of the aluminum coating coming off and causing corrosion."
Cracking bolt circles and corrosion are typically not discovered until AFTER the tire is mounted on the wheel and the wheel is mounted on the truck... and either one of those activities renders the American Force wheel "non-returnable". Is mounting a tire on a wheel, or mounting a wheel to a truck, an unusual or unexpected use for a wheel?
American Force does not publish or provide pressure or strength ratings for their 19.5 wheels. Their "strength" appears to be limited to the coolness of their custom design. And since American Force states there is no returnable warranty on "custom" products, and all of American Force products are "custom", there is no loss of warranty from attempting to use these products as wheels. One cannot lose what they never had.
These wheels are sold to people who seek to customize (decorate) their trucks, and it appears that is what they are best suited for... decoration.
Wheels suited for transportation have a DOT stamp, a pressure rating, and a weight rating. The OEM Accuride wheels have all of this information engraved into the wheel at time of manufacture. If American Force is CNC milling their custom triangular hand hole designs into blank wheel discs, is American Force also obtaining DOT approval and testing for these wheels in their final cut form?
American Force is a two man operation in Miami Florida (Ray and Robert), and Rickson is a one man (Don) operation in Maryland. It is a fairly safe bet that neither one of these companies is an OEM supplier.
Therefore, as stated in an earlier post, direct mount aluminum dually wheels to utilize 265mm 19.5" tires that are:
- Forged aluminum
- 10 bolt
- 225mm bolt circle diameter
- 170.1 mm hub pilot diameter
- 7.5" wide (Recommended by the Tire Industry Safety Council & the Rubber Manufacturer's Association)
... were never manufactured for a production vehicle by an OEM supplier.
"They used to be made by someone Rickson contracted out to make them. I’m not sure the party, but you’re welcome to call them and inquire".
I have no need to call Rickson to inquire, as I have no need for such wheels. I was merely trying to help you by answering your original question with the any and all Ford, Accuride, and Alcoa 19.5 wheel information that I had that might be responsive to your question.
You are the one looking for the wheels, and the one who remembers them, and the one who spoke with Rickson. I'll take your word for it.
If even after talking to Rickson, you still do not know what company Rickosn contracted with to make the wheels you are looking for, then I seriously doubt that I would learn any more from them than you did.
"Back in 2011, the Stockton Wheel Company shut it's doors due to the death of owner Frank Mauro. The company was to shutter at the time, but it eventually came back around. Stockton wheel is alive and well, even today."
I wasn't aware that the name "Stockton Wheel" is back in business. Their website banner states that they are "Under New Ownership." As stated in an earlier post... another shall soon rise again. Hopefully, the new ownership will not just take on the name, but also provide the same or better quality than the original business had.
What wheels are the "Expedition" F-550 campers equipped with? That might be a semi proven option for you.
Despite recommending the Ford converter, I did offer you a list of the major aftermarket torque converter manufacturers/brands. If you are not sure which one yet, here are some features to look for:
- Torrington Bearing and races
- 4130 CrMo Impeller Hub, Hardened
- 1020 HS Steel Furnace Brazed blades on the impeller and turbine
- Forged and Heat Treated Turbine Hub
- Induction Hardened splines on the turbine hub
- Single piece Solid Steel Billet machined cover
- Triple plate damper assembly
- Triple (or multi) friction disc
"my ford mech had an identical 08 f250 6.4 in his bay with 262K with original motor and tranny."
Hang on to that mechanic!
Dacco makes the Banks Billet torque converter. You can go to daccoinc.com and learn more about other Dacco branded converters.
I don't know who manufacturers the BD torque converter (not likely BD).
Other brand names of torque converters include Valair, Suncoast, and ATS. Of these three, I do not know the actual manufacturer either.
Then there is Precision Industries, out of Tennessee. These are the purple painted billet torque converters that BTS (Brian's Truck Shop... famous for bullet proofing Ford automatics and guaranteeing them for life) uses in his builds. Precision apparently manufacturers their own product.
Then there is Ford. Not a bad idea to go OEM, especially if any of your 5 yr / 100K is left on your engine warranty. Even if there is only 5 months left, repairs on the 6.4L typically run north of $10K, so if an aftermarket torque converter can be pointed to as an even remotely possible cause for non-Ford designed stress on the engine, it would best be avoided.
Finally, investing a lot of money in high end drivetrain parts on a 6.4L with 76K miles is a questionable endeavor. You are just about at the magic mileage mark where many owners reported problems with this motor. At some point, a cost benefit analysis will run out of legs in favor of keeping your 2008, that for some folks became a black hole that gobbled up their replacement truck spending budget because they spent so much fixing the lost cause that they had.
This all points toward sticking with a stock replacement converter, or Ford's "HD" version of the same, if offered for your version of transmission.
The 2015 F-450 pick up is going back to 19.5" tires and wheels, with more axle, brake, & suspension parts from the chassis cab again. That should up the payload numbers a bit for forthcoming F-450 pickups.
It may be a bit of a stretch in Arkansas, but $8K-$15K is what folks are paying on the left coast. (Literally, to a retrofit company actually called "left coast diesel"). If going the keep it stock route, the Ford dealer often hits 6.0 and 6.4 owners with five digit repair bills between $10,000 up to $18,000.
On the other hand, in 13 years, I paid a total of $15 for a cam shaft position sensor that I installed... in the glove box. That's it as far as engine repair. And truth be told, I haven't even needed it yet on the motor. I'm still on the original camshaft position sensor. Furthermore, I didn't even have to spend that $15, because Ford issued a recall beyond the original 5 year warranty. It just wasn't worth it to me to find the receipt and submit the paperwork for the reimbursement.
So, which do you choose?
An older engine with a well known $15. potential repair?
Or a newer engine with a well known $15,000. potential repair?
Even if it is only a $5,000. repair in states with a lower cost of living, the economics of potential risk is clear.
The 2005 coil springs, integrated brake controller, upgraded transmission, tighter turning radius, a more modern looking front grille, etc, won't matter one bit when you're stuck on the side of the road with a catastrophic five figure, cab off, three week repair to have to finance.
The cost of having to pay for two tows at once to pull you off of the side of the road... one for your truck, and another for your trailer, plus the nights at the local motel and the rental car, will likely far exceed the cost difference between the two trucks you are considering.
I take it back... the tighter turning radius might come in handy for the tow truck driver to steer your disabled truck in line with his flatbed.
If you are just now trading up from a 95, it doesn't sound like you are looking to waste an extra gallon of fuel to be the first guy to the top of the mountain pass. So unless you have an extra $8,000 to $15,000 in cash handy to cover the well known, well documented repairs needed to either fix or "bullet proof" a motor whose history you have no idea about, I'd take a pass on the 2005.
The 7.3L may be bit slower (although I've seen highly modified 7.3L's pull 11 something second 1/4 miles at the track), a bit older, and turn around in a bigger circle, but at least it manages to do so on it's own power. There was an article two years ago about an RV delivery guy reporting over 1.2 million documented miles on his 7.3L. And many more mileage reports exceeding half a million miles and still running strong.
The 6.7L from Ford looks promising. But that remains to be seen long term, and remains an order of magnitude more expensive to get into.
Marketing-speak can be confusing...
"Interesting to see they stretched the length by 20"!!!"
What they are referring to is the 20" overall length difference between the Tahoe and the Suburban. Nothing new there.
But the way marketing-speak minces words, they can make what has been the norm for 20 years suddenly sound like it is "new". It is attention seeking. "Check it out. Our product is bigger, faster, longer. Come on down to your local dealer and see for yourself."
But as far as length, it is not that different at all. The wording works though... even on folks who have owned the Suburban for a long time.
While marketing-speak twists the mind into thinking the 80 year old Suburban nameplate got "stretched" 20 inches, they invoke the history (80 years) of the brand. Yet a closer look at that history shows that Suburban was "shrunk" into the 4 door Tahoe back in 1992, not the other way around. But "shrunk" doesn't sound as value added as "stretched."
A review of the overall lengths of previous generations of Suburbans made after WWII, ie, from the 1950's, 60's, 70's, and 80's confirms the fact that the Suburban has remained the same length more or less for the last almost 3/4 of a century.
wirenutz... join the Escapees forum, and look in the MDT and HDT sections. A lot of your questions/concerns about moving up from a Class 3 tow vehicle to a Class 5 - 8 tow vehicle can be better addressed on those forums, because the user population there is more concentrated with MDT and HDT owners pulling large RVs.
The following quote caught my eye:
"One thing you must realize is that the Ford works best when starting down at a speed in the 50 to 55 MPH range max. Starting downhill at speeds greater than that just means you will need to use your brakes."
I don't think the Ford is unique from any of the competition on this count. All vehicles work best when starting down hill in a lower speed. Physics dictates that the Ford is no different than a Volkswagon in that regard.
Starting down a hill slow and in low gear helps save the brakes regardless of vehicle brand or transmission type... whether with stick shift or with fancy electronic shift strategies.