RE: The effects of uncontrolled sway.
OK guys, I need to have this protocol established: what to do when you hit sway. I have been towing a 32' TT for 2 seasons now and I have two small children, so I want to develop these good habits now. I have a Hensley Arrow, and there is no sway with that system, but lets assume that will not always be the case. I may not always have the HA, you never know.
I am seeing 2 conflicting arguments not just on these forums, but other websites as well. The 1st argument is:
** Let off the gas when sway begins, apply TT brakes (NOT TV brakes).
** Speed up when sway begins so it pulls the TT out of the sway, apply the TT brakes (NOT TV brakes).
I was told by my dealer when I bought the TT that it was a good idea to let off the gas, and apply the TT brakes manually. This was a salesman, not a service tech BTW.
Help me out guys
Hi harper223
You are asking a good question however, you need to ask it in the context of the hitch you are using.
If you are using a conventional hitch, conventional meaning the tow ball is some 56” plus or minus behind the TV, (towing on the ball) there is a set of guidelines to thin thru.
These are what I use on my conventional hitch, I stated this a few posts back.
Condtions at the time may slightly alter these thoughts but this is a place to start from
- Hold the wheel and speed steady.
- Grab the brake controller manual button. Do not hit the TV brakes!
- When you feel the TT dragging the TV back, you know the TT brakes are working and the sway is starting to dampen out.
- Then seconds later, slowly start releasing the speed and slowly steer to a safe direction, keep the TT brakes working until you know you are stable.
- Then once stable slowly letting off the gas and use the brakes gently if possible to slow down and not hit anyone.
The speed thing, I myself do not feel speeding up to gain control is a good thing, but do believe in holding the speed steady until the TT brakes start pulling on the truck. Then the sway oscillations are starting to dampen, you can feel it and do not have to look. The reason I say to not speed up is, it may be that speed just broke the critical speed factor in your rig combination that set the sway off in the first place. There are more negatives to trying to go faster to get sway under control then holding speed constant. Does it work by going faster, it all depends on many thing going on at that time. I for one cannot sort out the speed factors in my head fast enough in the split seconds we have to react. So this is what I have memorized and researched to be the approach.
Now to define the word holding the speed steady, this does mean hold the speed, do not drop it as the TT can come forward into the truck and if it drifts a little high, 2 to 5 mph that is better then a little low. Stomping on it, I do not agree with as it may accelerate you into other issues.
Now for a Hensley Arrow or Pullrite hitch, these hitches are using a different concept. Since the pivot point is so close to the rear axle, the concepts are different. 2 to 5” behind the rear axle is a big difference then 50 to 56” behind the rear axle. I’m not a HA or Pullrite tower and have not thought long and hard on this. However this much I can see is that the affect of speed is very different on these style hitches in this same case. One needs to think thru the mechanics of these hitches.
Say something broke in the hitch and the TT is doing strange things. For the HA due to it’s linkage, I would go for the TT brakes to keep the linkage tight so the TT does not slam the truck. On the Pullrite, it does not have linkage like the HA but if a WD bar came unhooked some how the rigid connection to the tow bar would be lost. Again thinking thru this I would go for the TT brakes on the Pullrite. I do not see speed helping these 2 hitches get you out of a jam.
Your question is almost a total post itself as it is special to the HA.
Hope this helps
John
RE: The effects of uncontrolled sway.
No, DO NOT let off on gas as that makes sway WORSE. Hold gas steady, or speed up slightly. Then put brake controller emergency slide full on and hold it there, then slowly let off gas. During all this DO NOT hit TV brakes. TT brakes will stop sway, and slow you down. Then let off emergency brake controller override, Then gently put on TV brakes, pull off road, change shorts.
Been there, done that, worked for me. Now I have an Equal-i-zer.
Hi Chuck, good statements
I'll add one more helpful suggestion, try not to steer the TV and TT out of the sway event. Hold the steering wheel as hard and steady as you can in the direction it is heading unless you are going to hit something immediately. Trying to steer the TV out of a sway event can actually accelerate the sway in magnitude. The tow ball goes in the opposite direction feeding the sway beast in motion. I know this sounds counterintuitive and un-natural, however by holding the wheel steady the tow ball is not moving in the opposite direction trying to intensify the sway. Once things start to settle, slowly steer back in a safe direction.
I myself do not feel speeding up to gain control is a good thing, but do believe in holding the speed steady until the TT brakes start pulling on the truck. Then the sway oscillations are starting to dampen, you can feel it and do not have to look. The reason I say to not speed up is, it may be that speed just broke the critical speed factor in your rig combination that set the sway off in the first place. There are more negatives to trying to go faster to get sway under control then holding speed constant. Does it work by going faster, it all depends on many thing going on at that time. I for one cannot sort out the speed factors in my head fast enough in the split seconds we have to react. So this is what I have memorized and researched to be the approach.
Condtions at the time may slightly alter these thoughts but this is a place to start from
- Hold the wheel and speed steady.
- Grab the brake controller manual button. Do not hit the TV brakes!
- When you feel the TT dragging the TV back, you know the TT brakes are working and the sway is starting to dampen out.
- Then seconds later, slowly start releasing the speed and slowly steer to a safe direction, keep the TT brakes working until you know you are stable.
- Then once stable slowly letting off the gas and use the brakes gently if possible to slow down and not hit anyone.
The above may only 4 or 5 seconds. At second 6 thank the Lord above for sparing you.
What occurred in this accident is very tragic and we are glad the camper folks in that rig are alive and recovering. Bad things happen to good people. We all need to learn from these things and if your rig has a small or large issue with stability, now is the time to fix it. If you are not sure how to fix it, ask until you get good answers and don’t give up. Go over in your mind, what would you do and try to make it instinct.
Hopefully talking about these things makes more aware that may have not know before.
John
RE: Dexter HD Suspension & EZ-Flex Install (long w/ pictures)
Hi Guys
I tried to buy the Monroe shock mount kit. None where available and Shock warehouse had no idea when they would be available. This was now 1 year ago. They said they had a hard time getting the install kits. But I did get 4 Magnum gas shocks from shock warehouse. Still in the box...
Monroe may have fixed there supply chain issues now, I hope so, but if they have not, it may be hard to get a mounting kit. I am making my own mounts. I have covered tanks and as such I can't mount the front axle shock inboard of the frame so I have to create a special thin mount to not have the tire hit the shock dust tube.
Good luck
John
RE: Bike rack for front of TT
Another fine article John :B ... John is a personal friend of mine and I consider him to be the "mechanic's mechanic"... We usually get together at least once a year and he always has a few surprises to show us :W
I've seen his bike rack previously and it's typical "Barca" :B ... Keep up the great work John... Can you give me a hint as to what the "surprise" will be for next year :B
Les
Gee Les, Thanks:)
Now what we might have or figured out to be installed for the next time we meet. H'mm here are 3 big ones in the works. A lot of little ones too.
A. An overhaul on the kitchen cabinets and entertainment center to offer more counter top space and how to deal with the new digi TV.
B. My Monroe shocks finally mounted dealing with the enclosed tanks compartment.
C. Maybe the rest of the story on where the 10% min. tongue weight rule came from.... :R
RE: The 10% min Tongue weight rule - Why?
As said before, the 10% min tongue weight rule is just one of those "rules of thumb" that have been developed over the millions of miles of RVing this country has done.
Increasing tongue weight increases stability, this much is known. So trailers with differing designs and therefore differing levels of stability can be somewhat mitigated by adjusting the tongue weight. As far as trailer stability is concerned, travel trailers are among the most challenging to get firm control on, partly because of their high profile and varying loads and balance. So it makes sense that trailers of this family should run higher-than-typical tongue weights (10% is often not even enough) to restore stability. Trailers with more inherent stability from the start (like Euro Caravans) do not require as much tongue weight to remain firmly controlled by the tow vehicle.
That is really all there is too it. You can't really have too much tongue weight, unless you are overloading the tow vehicle or hitch parts. But you CAN have too little, and it all depends on the trailer's behavior to start with.
Hi Caddywhompus
Thanks. I do agree with what you are saying. However I'm trying to be able to explain why more tongue weight creates more stability. My quest started when a camping buddy of mine asked me "why" as he only has 6% tongue weight yet his TT tows well at that 6%. However it may be unique to his small TV and small TT makeup.
And the more searching into this the more depth I myself understand into the other factors that are in the equation that can have as much effect as tongue wieght in controlling TT yaw. Actually if we could make the TT tongue longer would help all by itself. I'll try to find it again in the NHTSA file Ron G linked us to, but about ~ 18" to 2 foot of more tongue length can come out to about 5% less needed tongue weight to accomplish the same yaw damping.
Thanks
John
RE: The 10% min Tongue weight rule - Why?
Thanks. Yes, Ron linked me there already off line. I thought for sure he would of popped in here on this post by now. He must be off building another house.
John, you are absolutely correct. We're currently in Mobile just getting started on construction of two houses for Habitat for Humanity In Mobile County.
These houses are close to sea level and are designed to meet post-Katrina storm surge and wind loads. The foundations consist of concrete footings with 32" stem walls constructed of pressure-treated 2x6 lumber. The construction requires much more pre-work than our usual slab-on-grade design.
Anyway, I think you guys are doing a great job of research and brain storming the "min Tongue weight rule". A lot of good opinions have beed offered.
For further reading, you might want to look at Development of Car/Trailer Handling and Braking Standards from 1979. The document contains a lot of good stuff on minimum and maximum hitch loads. Enjoy.
Ron
Ron
You always have good links! Thanks and it even has TT tests!! I made it to page 117 of 154.. And I need to go to bed for tonight. Have to print out and reread. This was very good stuff. It shows the test at 0,5,10,15% and in some cases 20% tongue weight.
It also lists a great number of other things beyond tongue weight, again yaw inertia, mass of the TV to the TT, speed, distance from TT axle to ball, and the benefit of weight distribution in aiding in controlling sway.
I have some more reading and summarizing from this NHTSA sponsored test and other things I found to bring this down into easier to understand stuff for those not so heavy into the science behind all this.
Thanks again, I’ll be back in the near future to post the findings and see what the group can agree or not on.
Happy building
John
PS The Popular Science link was good but not so scientific. And if that source is quoted right, the GM engineer was recommend a WD hitch on any trailer over 2,000#. They also about 15 and 20% tongue loads, no 10%. Again a magazine article to be kept in perspective.
And the guys with the negative tongue weight with the trailer up in the air…I found that too before. Was good stuff but again not into much detail. Actually someone here on the forum use to have that as their sig pic.
RE: The 10% min Tongue weight rule - Why?
John,
Have you seen this post by Ron Gratz that he made on 1/8/09? That one and several of his that follow on that thread may have some bearing on your question.:)
Barney
Barney
Thanks. Yes, Ron linked me there already off line. I thought for sure he would of popped in here on this post by now. He must be off building another house. I will comment on his post as soon as I sort more thru it and I keep finding more on this.
I have learned some new things doing more digging. As Caddywhompus stated, it does seem the 10% rule is a Northamerica thing. Why??? I bumped into this today.
See here on this write up from down under,like in Australia.
Towbal Weights and Stability
They claim the reason for 10% rule is
“Towball Weight and Trailer Stability
We've all heard of the 10-percent rule: conventional wisdom has it that a trailer coupling should bear around 10 percent of the total trailer weight.
The purpose of this percentage is manifold: guaranteeing that the trailer won’t lift the rear wheels of the towing vehicle under acceleration or when climbing a steep grade; ensuring that the trailer tracks accurately behind the towing vehicle; and preventing trailer sway.”
Have not heard it put quite that way before. That is one published oppinion.
And then I found this in the UK. An actual study done and posted on yaw inertia. http://www.towingstabilitystudies.co.uk/stability-studies-research.php They have a few tabs there and a working model.
The Australia outback article also refers to the UK study. One of the findings was that if the yaw inertia is over the TT center of gravity, it can help to not allow sway oscillations to build in intensity. This make sense as once sway starts, having high mass at great distances from the center of gravity or centroid in this case, the pendulum effect keeps growing once it starts unless you can dampen it out or the TT/TV crashes. So if you are going to put weight in your TT, put it over the center of gravity…
Not always easy to do if your cargo hole is up front or in the rear of the TT. Like front kitchen models or rear kitchen models. Or rear living area campers that have high tongue wight and light rear areas. It seems a layout with high yaw inertia is optimual and that also seems to be slightly counterintuitve to TT with high tongue weight. Like in the case of my rear living area camper. A light tongue, light rear TT and heavy center would seem to point to a more stable tow. But many of our TT's are not built that way. And the article also lists all the other towing factors they we too know of.
And they made this statement in the Australia outback article
“In summary, the engineers discovered that the three most significant parameters affecting trailer stability were trailer yaw inertia, nose mass and trailer axle position. Interestingly, the total weight of the trailer wasn’t a stability issue of itself, but weight distribution was critical.” While those may be 3 key factors we can only control them so much the way our TT is built.
And the UK article pointed me here to Al-Ko in the UK complete with a video http://www.al-koatc.co.uk/index.htm They have a new trailer sway control device for Europe. It has a yaw sensor on the TT and when the oscillations get out of range, it brakes the TT. Now keep in mind, Europe for the most part in not on electric brakes. Some reason they do not allow them on TT’s. So Al-Ko had to do it mechanically thru the parking brake. I have not found that in the US yet on TT’s. The concept to do that on electric brakes is not that hard to do.
However they do seem to now do this on semi trailer to help rollovers. Haldex Trailer Roll Stability System
Maybe some day they can add that as a kit to a TT.
Then I ended up with this Delpi paper. Have not made it all the way thru this one yet. http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2008-01-1228.pdf
It seems my simple question is not so simple. Where did the 10% rule come from? But I’m learning new things in the process so that is a positive step forward.
John
RE: The 10% min Tongue weight rule - Why?
Hi T Bone
Thanks for stopping in. I agree with everything you said to the Tee. I have read thru the Dexter applications manual and there is a lot of good stuff in there, just it does not break down the why. It does state 60% of the load foward of axles as a guide, but not exactly why.
And especially your point about distance from axle to ball. This is a larger factor then one may think and may actually mean more then actual tongue weight. However once the TT is built there is little the owner can do about axle to ball length except load the camper right.
Doing some more digging, RIVA just had a conference on this in March of this year. Current Issues in Designing Trailers
If I would of realized this quest early enough in the year, I'm close enough to Elkhart I would of went. They had all the right guest speakers there.
SAE has a lot too, however one has to signup and pay for the white papers.
I'm hoping Ron will pop in here soon. I’m sure he is thinking on this.
Thanks
John
RE: The 10% min Tongue weight rule - Why?
There are lots of creditable sources claiming the 10 to 15% is needed for stable towing, however they never explain why.
Faith John, Faith! You just have to believe! :)
Barney
LOL :B Yes we all need a lot more faith.
You mean just like when the you ask the dealer, Can I tow it? Sure you can!!! :S
This is not quite the same analogy... but, look what blind faith can get you into....
H'mm, I wonder if Leonardo had anything to do with this? Where's Les. :B :W
John
RE: The 10% min Tongue weight rule - Why?
Hey John,
I once had a book on trailer design that explained these things... I don't remember if I still have it but I'll take a look for downstairs in the bookcase... Think I may have thrown it out when I left work - had it there I think...
Les
Les,
Yes, please look if you can find it, that would be of great help.
How all this started was I helping a fellow camping buddy trying to understand his towing rig and how important proper weight and balance is. His rig is very small, both the TV and TT and it tows well for him. However he is only on 6% tongue weight, a whopping 160#. I encouraged him to get it up higher and he has no problems in doing so. This lead the discussion to rear overhang and other towing attributes. In the end he asked the simple question of where did the 10 to 15% rule come from and what makes it up? Basically “Why” is 10% tongue weight the magic low end number? Well… I can see how proper tongue weight affects towing forward stability, I can mock it up in a model, Barney even proves it every week when he takes the trash out…. There are lots of creditable sources claiming the 10 to 15% is needed for stable towing, however they never explain why.
It is a simple question that is not really understood well where it comes from. So even myself now realizing there is a component to stable towing I need to better sort out. So I came to the Open Roads Forum to see if they could help. The range of replies has sort of been all over. I’m not trying to prove why the sun comes up in the east in North America just a simple answer a simple question. Many have given good help and info into different aspects of it and I appreciate that.
However the more I dig it’s not all actually tongue weight related. There are other things going on. Critical Speed of when a rig can come apart, the wind acting on a large object behind the TV, aka the Brick effect. The relationship of the tow ball distance from the axle center to the wheels width plays in here as well. A very wide short tongued trailer will track different then a narrower long tongue trailer with the same tongue weight/GVW. However tongue weight is what most of us towing TT’s can have a level of control on. The trailer has to be made right then we as campers have to load it right.
So I’m just trying to understand it better. I was pointed in this direction by a fellow camper friend, Vehicle stability By Dean Karnopp start on page 75, there is a level of higher end math in there but it is a start. The key is to take that and bring it down to a more common explanation that most camper folks towing TT’s can understand.
Thanks
John
RE: The 10% min Tongue weight rule - Why?
I don't know the physics behind it but I have one of those plastic garbage cans that has two small wheels on the bottom. I have pulled it to the curb for pickup many times. I have found that if I try pulling it with the handle high (can almost vertical - little "tongue weight") that it will "sway" almost immediately and want to tip over in just a few feet. All I have to do is lower the handle down a bit so the can is more horizontal (more "tongue weight") and the "sway" stops immediately.
I imagine the exact same thing is happening in a trailer. There is a definite point during the pulling of the garbage can that the sway will start and a definite point where it stabilizes when lowering the handle. I think this would relate to the 10% and higher tongue weight on a trailer.
snip...
To this day, the ceiling of his enclosed deck on the back of his home has tire marks on it in testimony to his improper loading of the trailer! :B
Barney
Barney
Thank you. Your garbage can is doing exactly the principal we are talking about. Perfect example. And since your garbage can is most likely single axle, the problem is not masked by having tandem wheels. Tandem axles creates more stability against this unstable steering effect that we are having a hard time trying to explain why it does this.
Your garbage can also brings up the thought there is more to this tracking effect that is beyond just tongue weight.
There is a length of the trailer tongue from the front axle (distance from axle to tow ball) to the width between the tires relationship that interacts with the forward towing stability.
Think of a small sail boat trailer that is 5 feet wide and about 15 feet from the axle to the tow ball. The back of the day sailer is only about 5 feet off the back of the axles. Here the trailer at lower speeds tracks straight even with low tongue weight, maybe in the 3 to 5% range. However hit a good bump and the tongue pops up in the ball coupler making it do strange steering things.
Take that same sail boat trailer and make the axle 8 feet wide. Since the wheels are further out from the centerline of the trailer, the wander would increase for the same tongue weight if the tongue length was the same. At least in my thought process anyway.
And if the trailer is not made right, a real short tongue and wide axle spacing does not like to track well either. I don’t know what the ratio is between wheel spacing and tongue length is to make a stable towing setup, but if you are less then 1 to 1, or 8 foot tongue (axle to ball) on 8 foot wheel spacing, that will not track as well as a 1.5 or 2 to 1 ratio trailer. 12 foot tongue to 8 foot wheel space or 16 foot tongue to 8 foot wheel spacing.
Speed is a factor in here as well. Once you hit a certain speed it can all seem to come apart. This point looks like Dale proved it. I’m sure he nor you will ever forget that.....
Maybe if we can get enough positive feedback bits and pieces we can understand this relationship a whole lot better.
Thanks
John
RE: The 10% min Tongue weight rule - Why?
I will give you my theory. There are times when you hit bumps in a certain way that the rear of the trailer has more of a downward force (g's) than the front attached to the TV. This downward force (mass X velocity) can cause the front of the trailer to lift, using the wheels as a fulcrum. You do not want that, it is very dangerous. I had some friends who towed a small utility trailer with a load of wood. This happened at 65MPH, flipped them, and they were almost killed. Having more weight on the hitch will prevent the lifting.
Make sense?
Hi Burp
Yes, I agree with your point as this can occur when a bounce in the back of the trailer occurs and the trailer goes close to no tongue weight, this will make the trailer wander all over. What that bounce force is depends on a number of things with trailer length being a variable, a 1,000# impact load 8 feet behind the axle will result in a different front end lift as opposed to 4 feet behind the axles.
But you have stirred up the steering fulcrum thoughts when you approach 0% tongue weight and that has me thinking more. A single axle trailer is very bad for this while tandem axle is better but still not great. Actually I think Heartland TT’s creates a very long equalizer to spread the wheels out more to help overcome the issue. I say some at a dealer and asked, do they scrub hard going around a turn? Well yes….but it is not that bad explained the salesmen. I'll have to think on this more as it is part of the answer. I do believe it is a relationship between tracking straight ahead and resisting side forces acting on it as the trailer is pulled forward, the axles are the fulcrum.
Thanks
John
RE: The 10% min Tongue weight rule - Why?
The car manufactures can take a flatbed trailer, load it with concrete blocks, and then tow it on a test track. Try out the braking, and stopping the truck without the trailer brakes. Check stability in turns, and so on. THey can move the hitch weight around, overloading the hitch, and bringing the hitch weight to a negative value if desired during a test run.
They found out that 10% hitch weight with a travel trailer is about the minimum weight that you want. 12% seems to provide more stability in strong crosswinds, and putting the weight closer to the ground helps too.
Some boats do not have a lot of hitch weight, and they also tow fine. But they are not as tall as a travel trailer, and tend to have more weight over the trailer axles, and that might be why they still tow well with only 100 pounds on the hitch with a overall weight up to 5,000 pounds.
Good Luck!
Fred.
Fred
Thank you for your response. Some things in there I did not know in a general sense, good to follow up on some day if I ever need to.
I follow what you are saying and I agree with it. Yes, testing can show the stability is better and I’m sure this was discovered many years ago. So many years that I’m having a hard time finding anyone that remembers why it works. And your right, low profile loads on a flat bed do not have the same wind problems we have with our TT’s. The wind forces create other dynamics. The 10% min guide also fits cargo trailer and even utility trailers and other trailer where the axles are in the mid section so to speak.
I have even mocked this up to prove it to myself, yet I have not yet pin pointed why it tracks better. And doing this, the further back the axles are the more stable it seems to come. However the tongue weight rises along with it. Take a horse trailer with the wheels in the back and a gooseneck up front. There is stable towing just high pin weight and need a truck big enough to hold it up. If 30 to 50 years this was sorted out and it came that tow vehicles of the time could only handle an average of 500 to 1,000# tongue weight, then that becomes a design factor to figure out how to stay within. A 20% tongue weight may tow a lot more stable, but most do not have a TV to hold it and as such up so they cannot sell that many trailers.
I hope there is more science in this then, this then is what we came up with 40 yeas ago as a compromise to fit the TV’s of the times. I know there is more to this it is just escaping me at the moment. And if this falls into the same question as why do many TV manufactures rate the WD ratings of there receiver based on 10% of the pull rating? You can pull 12,000 pounds but can only handle 1,200# of tongue weight in WD mode. This is a great disservice to us in the RV world. A 1/2 ton truck and a 1 ton Dully can at times have the same rated receiver. But that is yet another post.
Thanks
John
The 10% min Tongue weight rule - Why?
Hi Fellow Towing Campers
I have a semi simple question on where did the 10% minimum tongue weight per trailer GVW number come from. I’m after a explanation of “why’?
1st let me state I’m a firm believer in good TT weight and balance and use a figure of 13 to 15% tongue weight as a guide.
Also I can find creditable source after source that state that the minimum for a TT is that 60% of the weight is forward of the center of gravity of the TT. Or the 10% tongue weight rule as 60% forward of the center of gravity is the same as moving the axles 10% behind the center of gravity.
And if we have 0% tongue weight or a 50% weight spilt around the center of gravity, the TT will not track very well. Any little disturbance to the side of the TT will shift it left to right. Even wheel alignment in this case can case it to wander. The same goes for negative tongue weight so to speak. If the weight behind the axle is heavier then the tongue area, well first the tongue will pop up if not coupled down and the TT will wander easily left to right when towing forward.
So we all believe in good tongue weight and balance but what trailer tracking science is going on that make 10% the lower bottom target?
I can make up a model trailer and prove it by pulling it by hand and I can see it tracking straighter, I’m just missing the science explanation behind “why”?
Any help? And what would be icing on the cake is a web site link with back up of any kind. I can find tons of creditable sites preaching a min of 10% but none I have found so far ever explain the why.
Thanks
John
RE: Manual operation of slideout
Thanks for the help. At least I know what to look for. I hope I never have to use it but I wanted to know what to do if I did.
Hi Bulldawg
Is yours a hydraulic slide or an electric motor ACME screw drive system?
I do believe the one Bonefish has is a hydraulic one. The Lippert one I linked you too was the electric motor ACME screw drive.
They sort of look a lot different.
Hope this helps
John
RE: Lexan or plexiglass on my screen door
Hi Fellow Door Panel Campers....
See this post, 4 pages worth and mine is in there too with more pics.
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/22665852/srt/pa/pging/1/page/2.cfm
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Sunline%20Camper%20Upgrades/Plexigalsdoor.jpg
The first one I did in the pic above was made from Plexiglass, about $50 of material. I cracked one section flexing it getting it on while fitting it :M. Had enough to make another and it works OK. However on this new TT I will use Lexan as I could not find it before. Home Depot now has it, about $65 to $70 a sheet when I bought it. Like 24" inches by 70" ish. It's still in the shed ready to be cut and fit. Have not made it to it yet.
Mine uses clips. Can take upper or lower panel on or off. However you do this, it is a great mod.
Hope this helps
John
RE: Manual operation of slideout
Hi Bulldawg
A heads up on manual slide cranking. Pending what brand slide mechanism you have the mechanical advantage is very large in the slide motor system. When you put the manual crank in, in many cases pending brand, the overload clutch is not active during manual cranking. If you hit resistance, you can accidentally crank right thru it and bend up your slide motor actuator.
Here is mine. It is a Lippert slide system and on mine Sunline gave me a special crank to reach thru the TT body.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Camper%20Upgrades/Slide%20Actuator%20Repair/manualcrank.jpg
Lippert bent slide motor mounting brkt's. (long- lots of pics)
See this post which has some use full info on the manual slide actuator. The prior owner of my camper somewhere in it's life bent the system, and it is suspect it came from manual cranking or using a portable drill on too much power.
Good luck and hope this helps
John
RE: Inside mount storm windows
Here is another Idea for storm windows, check out this site:
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/everest323k/storm.html
Hope this helps,
Don
Don
Thanks, that does help.
RE: Double windows, hard to find in the US?
John,
Moisture always finds a way to get to areas we thought we have covered. The reason is that absolutely nothing is 100% resistant to dry water molecules traveling through them. Not even glass. All we can do, then, is slow the process down. I'm not sure exactly what happened to your metal frame but it looks like since some humidity was able to still get through the shrink wrap, it chose to settle on the aluminum. Or it may be coming round-about from the area around the perimeter of the aluminum after first going through the wall cavity. Humidity does travel as a dry vapor until it reaches a cool enough surface to condense into visible water. The idea is to always slow the molecular migration down on the warm side of the wall and yet make sure the cool outside can breathe any remaining vapor (or condensed water) amount to the outside atmosphere.
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Hi Wes
Thanks for the note. I "think" I know the problem but before I do the fix I have in mind, I want to make sure there is not an easier way. Someone with factory storms may help say, yes they still have aluminum sweat or not and why not??
See here the 1st problem. There is a hole direct to the outside aluminum flange in the frame work. This is with the inside aluminum flange removed.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Camper%20Upgrades/Windows%20-%20Storm/airspace.jpg
OK so I thought I would insulate it. So I did, then I put the shrink wrap on like I did last year.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Camper%20Upgrades/Windows%20-%20Storm/Insulatedslidewindow.jpg
But it did not shift the aluminum sweat. It is as bad as last year when I had no insulation in that gap. What I believe the problem is the way the windows are made. The inside flange screws to the outside flange. Since aluminum is such a great conductor it heat sinks in cold from outside right to the flange on the wall inside. And with the stretch wrap right on the aluminum inside it does not insulate that flange. The window does not sweat because of the now insulated air space. And the inisde vapor cannot reach the glass.
See here how the inside flange screws to the outside flange. This is another window but same problem. That metal to metal joint is the problem I do believe.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Camper%20Upgrades/Windows%20-%20Storm/alumframe.jpg
My thought process unless someone can chime in on how there factory storms fix this is, to add a gasket of something insulating between the inside flange and the outside flange before I screw the 2 together. I have to stop the heat sink from the outside world. Cutting gaskets is a big deal as well as insulating washers for all the screws. I believe it might stop the problem, but there has to be an easier way. Almost like making a lexan storm window that goes over the entire flange to the wall and still leaves an air space between lexan and alum inside flange but seals to the wall with a sponge foam. Then the inside vapor will never get to the aluminum.
Almost need to see a pic of a RV storm window system to help spark more ideas.
Thanks for the help
John
RE: Bike rack for front of TT
Jbarca, tell us about those downspouts.
Ah you picked up on them. :) Follow these 3 links. A little off topic in this bike rack post
T2499 Gutter Down Spouts - One Approach
T310SR Gutter Down Spouts
Black Streaks
