Thanks Salvo. The IQ4 blurb does state that it uses battery voltage, not converter voltage. It says Bulk voltage is 14.8 and the high trigger is 14.6
How would it measure battery voltage without a separate wire?
Coupling different batteries for one cycle is useful to determine exactly what?
I felt I had to put my 2-cents in to at least go on the record.
Same batteries with different base densities of electrolyte don't like each other. Different alloy batteries wish same electrolyte density don't like each other.
Taking them out for a soda is one thing. Having them bunk together is quite another.
I guess all it could show is what their respective SG changes read when the entire bank is presumed to be around 50%. But it appears you are not saying that there is, necessarily a SOC issue, but rather, more of... some kind of... mystical interaction between batteries of differing types.
I would love to learn more about this if you want to start a new thread. But since you've never steered me wrong before... until you do... I'm gonna' take your word for it and simply heed your advice. I'm sure BFL will too.
So far as I can see, the document suggests 2.41 per cell as a maximum boost charging voltage. That works out to only 12 volts.
Mena, where did you see 14.46 volts?
It would be 6 cells, correct?Yes, 6 cells.
How did PT come up with that???
I say, with batteries near junk status in worth GO FOR IT :)
And prosperous folks who don't mind spending money finding out the hard way, likewise. There is nothing like real life unbiased experimentation as a learning tool.
So do you submit that one ~50% cycle as an experiment will likely cause significant harm to the healthier batts?
I feel it's OK to parallel different capacity 12s together.B's two 12's are in a state of reduced capacity (he got them used). MEX said they would prey on his bank of 6's.
I still don't understand how. When fully charged, they should both find themselves at similar voltages, though, with no load, the older batteries may drop before the 6s.
However, BFL plans to tie them together and USE them.
I suppose, perhaps, if the used batteries are really beat...
Now when you say, "prey;" do you mean they will bring physical harm? Or are we just talking Ah robbery? If the latter, it seems BFL, with his meters, could run an experiment at home. Unless BFL is averse to running experiments. :B
BFL, I'm looking in your direction! Time for another test... now of this supposed "fact" from Mex... all in the name of... SCIENCE!!!
Interesting, that chart looks exactly like this one located in a solar-electric FAQ under the paragraph Cycles vs Lifespan.
The last sentence attributes the chart to Lifeline:
The chart is for a Concorde Lifeline battery, but all lead-acid batteries will be similar in the shape of the curve, although the number of cycles will vary.
Man! A guy can't get away with squat around here!
Yeah, good catch, mose. You busted me. I was running off of memory and ahhhhh... well... that's probably not always a good idea in my advancing age.
The main point is the same. The question was whether or not batteries could handle 100% discharges. The answer, again is yes. Just not as many as 5% discharges or anywhere in between.
I am about ready to defy the Great Master and go for more capacity-- at least for "weekend style" camping in the winter.
Sure. It's only money, right?
I mean... you guys have dollars up there in the Great White North, yes?
That's interesting. I am having a hard time reconciling his logic on that one. I feel it's OK to parallel different capacity 12s together. Logic says that they should both reach 50% at roughly the same time. More Ahs will come from the bigger battery and more will return when charged. Not ideal, but not catastrophic.
And when did Mex start wearing the pants in YOUR family???
(OK, I admit it. I would probably heed grandpa's advice too. But this grandkid is still gonna' ask, "Why?")
His new concerns revolve around charge settings for the AGM's that may be in his future. I use 3 of them and they are charged by either the solar or my old PD charger. They seem to be doing fine on a diet of less than scientific charging protocol.
And they should... so long as you don't do successive 50-90%-type charges. Then you may need to equalize them... which is not for the flippant.
I wonder if you may have actually been overcharging. I check them frequently, but my batteries can probably go years without adding water. That said... overcharging, in my mind, is more likely to cause a short by wearing out the positive plates than it is capacity loss.
Relying on a meter could cause you to go over or under. Neither are good. I like voltage for a simple metric and SG on occasion when I want more accuracy.
Then there's the idea of equalization. If you said you were good about that, then I missed it. Stratification can lead to early retirement too. Equalization should address that as well. Mex destratifies about once every 3 weeks. Just about a bubble a second for maybe 20 minutes to stir things up.
AGMs definitely have their place. They are primarily for those who want low maintenance... and who DON'T do successive 50-90s, i.e. won't be doing much in the way of equalizing.
Put me down for 3 more G27s and a watering system. Cheap and easy... just like me.
But DEEP CYCLE are designed to recover from 50 percent discharge (or more claim some) and Starting is not.
True. And the claim is more than a claim. There is simply a curve for that. The old standby for GC2s is below. The bottom set of figures is percentage of discharge. The left is number of cycles expected (so long as the battery is well cared for otherwise.) So if you discharge to 50% every single time and fully and immediately recharge each time, you should expect to get 1000 cycles out of the bank. All 100% discharges should still yield 350. (Well, yeah.... maybe. I'd be interested to hear Mex's opinion on that.) But if you do a dozen 100% discharges with a starting battery?
I am a deep cycle fan, mainly due to the antimony which allows for gassing at a lower charge voltage and temperature, which allows for much easier recovery from Progressive Capacity Loss.
But Hybrids have their place. I don't have the height in my battery box to allow for GCs. ALSO... I can fit 3, but not 4. So I have 3-G27s in parallel. Over a pair of golf cart batteries, this gets me an extra 100 Ah or so with the added benefit of limping along if one or two batteries were to fail. If one out of 2 6V batteries fail while your hunting way up in the mountains... you might be SOL.
Also... Hybrids hold their voltage better with heavy inverter use. So... whatever floats your particular boat.
Below is a paste of an old post of mine regarding battery expense vs. camping expenses. It goes on to discuss fast charging vs. slower charging too.
Mileage is expensive. Battery expense is a drop in the bucket. Don't pick up a nickle while a dollar blows by. Enjoy your life and your RV.
Here's a breakdown that applies to our family's approximate usage... or at least the usage we'd like. YMMV.
Camping Battery Cost – Per Day Camping
Given 20 weekends per year or 40 nights per year
Given a Battery Bank of – 3 Costco G27s @ $68.99 ea for a total of $210
1. 200 miles round trip average @ $1/mi = $200
2. Campsite – average $15 / night for 2 nights = $30
3. Boat gas etc. = $50
4. Bait & tackle = $30
5. I’m sure there’s a few things I’m missing, but that’s good for now
$200 + $30 + $30 + $50 = $310 Total per trip or
$155 per night
IF… my bank only lasts me 6 years. (I believe I can do much better)…
6 years * 40 nights = 240 nights
$210 in batteries / 240 nights = $0.875 per night or $1.75 Total per trip
Slow v. Fast Charging
IF… because I charge at a rate above C/5… (AND enjoy 30 minutes of extra peace and quiet with no generator running) my bank only lasts 3 years (doubtful, but for the sake of argument)…
3 years * 40 nights = 120 nights
$210 / 120 = $1.75 / night
$1.75 – 0.875 = $0.875
Therefore… by pushing my batteries and running my generator for a half hour less each day, I might have to shell out another 88 cents.
Oh, but wait…
Forgot about generator gas. An Onan 4.0 might do ½ a gallon per hour under a light load. So subtracting 0.25 gallons per day for that half hour at current gas prices of about $3.90 per gallon is just about $1 per day in fuel savings.
And even if I only run the generator every other day. That’s $.50 in generator fuel savings, let alone oil changes every 50 hours, depreciation and tune-up expenses.
So now that extra half hour of peace and quiet is costing me (MAYBE) $0.33 per camping day. Could be less. If I run the generator every day, it could be a negative number.
The trip cost me $155 per day. I think I can come up with an extra 33 cents for the half hour of peace and quiet. If not, perhaps I can hit up 4 neighbors for a dime each. I'd bet they'd be happy to. Then I'd make out with 7 cents!
Again YMMV, but you get the idea. Though I’m betting many of you that are pushing your batteries with C/3 charge rates are doing much better than $0.33 a day. BFL13… I’m looking in your direction.
I've never bought into the notion that capacity is king. I'm for a balanced system. If you have solar then there's no need to go overboard on capacity. I see only one capacity sizing requirement. In your daily use, keep SOC above 50 to 60%. If you can maintain that with one battery then you don't need more.
Again, it depends on your use. I'm a 4-day weekender, at best. My 3 batteries get me through that without firing the genny, with room to spare over 50%. Then the alternator does most of the work on the way back home. Nothing but peace and quiet the entire stay. And only 1 cycle with no Progressive Capacity Loss.
Even with solar, I would want the high capacity. A crabbing trip to a foggy coast is not apt to garner a lot of sunshine. So if I was set up with lower capacity with the hopes of more easily topping with solar... I would have to run the genny at the foggy coast. No thanks.
Like BFL, I'm a camper... not a long hauler or full-timer.
I also don't live in an area with 360 days of sunshine (yes, exaggeration) like Sal. If you do, then a balanced system with solar is probably a great way to go.
Otherwise... for campers... capacity is king.
A camper for 2 weeks or less doesn't need to top the bank. He can do that when he gets home. What he DOES need to do is have a bank that is ready and capable of accepting current. Once you get to about 85%, the smaller the bank, the less current it will accept while that generator is workin' away.
And what's the cost of 3 batteries? I paid something like $200 for mine and they are still at original SG after 3.5 years. If they last 7 years, that equates to less than one Starbucks a month (though I don't drink Starbucks.) Point is... that's peanuts for the convenience of all that peace and quiet.
BFL is a heavy battery abuser and he gets a LOT of mileage from his. At like 100A a day, he would need a pile of solar to replace that without running the genny.
The mantra we're discussing here was originally geared toward boondockers. And for any of them without solar that either wish to or are required to limit genny time... the mantra holds.
So I'm thinking capacity is not king.
That's BLASPHEMY you speak!!!
No, high capacity is definitely not for everyone. There is already lots of good and accurate info on this thread, but I'll simply add...
capacity is still king... for those of us without solar who prefer to run our generators as little as possible. Or, like BFL who are heavy users (not like other Canucks currently in the headlines) and park at campgrounds with stiff generator time restrictions.
My... albeit... old, but light parasitic-drawing rig can go a week before 50% is reached, with 2 hours of TV/DVD per day and all day music; this on 3-G27, flooded batteries. My LEDs don't hurt, though.
The Onan in my rig is, pretty much used only for A/C during the warm summers. I have to run it monthly, simply to exercise it.
Ahhhh, the peace and quiet.
The only other time I need it is when camping with a friend with a newer rig, no genny and a single G27.
And yeah... the bottle exchange costs almost twice as much in my area. It's amazing what some will pay for convenience. And it's not THAT much more convenient. It might save you 5 minutes, but costs like 10 bucks. That's $120 an hour! At 40 hours a week, that's almost a quarter million in a 50 week year. I know some folks make that kind of cash and more, but about 99% of us don't.
I've been working on a tally propane filling/gas stations for my town of about 35,000.
Out of the 14 that I was able to get a hold of on the phone or drove by personally...
9 sold propane
5 did not
These did not include RV shops. These are just gas stations that also fill propane.
I may be missing some, but I do know of 4 more stations in town that I was not able to get a hold of or drive by as of yet.
So it appears that Southern Oregon may be in the upper echelon of propane filling station areas.
The only easy site that I found was the Flying J site which list stations that have propane and prices. U hauls are my next choice but a phone call is needed to see if the can accommodate MH's and a price quote. The cheapest but most difficult to use is the Tractor Supply Stores. Some sell propane but can't accommodate MH's two web site searches and a phone call is required.
Yeah, but around here, and plenty of other places, (I gather from some of the replies on this thread,)... there are many gas stations that can fill MHs, etc. Many more phone calls required.
try this one
Been there. It sucked. But thank you. :)
It showed 45 in the whole of the state of Oregon. There are that many in Southern Oregon alone. I'm guessing up north in Eugene, Salem and Portland there are a few more.
In a gasser motorhome, definitely gasoline, although a gasoline generator takes some upkeep (fog it before storage, drain carb bowl, etc.)
I know that little Onan carb is especially sensitive to spoiling fuel, but I run marine Sta-bil in my full tank for winter storage and run the genny at near full power once a month. The electric end needs exercise anyway. No problems year after year this way and only costs me maybe a gallon of gas a month.
I should run the chassis engine this way too, but I haven't. Starts right up every time I ask her to. Perhaps a 10 minute run or so would be good; enough to clear the moisture out of the exhaust and more than enough to cycle fresh gasoline through the bowl.
Don't mind me. Thinking out loud here. I digress...
Just looking at my Zip code, that suggested www site does not list many, many sources in my area.
X3. Nowhere near.
I neglected to mention that I had found that site already in my plethora of searches. OP updated.