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RE: Good news for Cummins and Dodge
What's the purpose of bringing up a story that's a year and a half old? OLD news for sure.
How about for people who weren't on this board a year ago. If you don't like a post, simply don't read it (or respond).
Apparently you're one of those that only gets their information from this board. Time to expand your horizons. The internet is a huge place.
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Rob_NC
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10/09/09 06:23pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Good news for Cummins and Dodge
What's the purpose of bringing up a story that's a year and a half old? OLD news for sure.
Why do you have to be such a hater Rob? :)
Two rude posts in two threads about Dodge/Cummins. You got a beef or something? :?
Rude thread? Just stating facts. I am a big Cummins fan, but it seems odd that since the announcement of the Ford 6.7l, all of the Dodge boys are trying to dig up anything that will make them feel better. No need to worry guys, there aren't any of the 6.7 sold yet. It will be a year or more before the jury hands in a verdict. As far as your comment in the other thread about superior technology, I've tested both first hand. And while both have their advantages, I'd take an SCR diesel over a NOx absorber any day of the week.
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Rob_NC
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10/09/09 06:20pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Cost of 2010 compliant diesels
Another article stated that Dodge/Cummins is avoiding SCR Urea injection for the light truck 6.7 by using EPA credits, not because it is compliant.
That's incorrect. The 6.7L Cummins was 2010 compliant at it's introduction in 2007. It uses different (better) technology called an adsorber (yes aDsorber, with a "D") cataylst in the exhaust to negate the need for urea. This superior technology won it an Automotive News PACE Award: LINK
I'd like to see a link to that article.
Your so-called "superior" technology uses additional diesel fuel to clean itself and has a finite life span. So superior that no one else is using it, even Mercedes.
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Rob_NC
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10/08/09 07:37pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Good news for Cummins and Dodge
What's the purpose of bringing up a story that's a year and a half old? OLD news for sure.
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Rob_NC
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10/08/09 07:28pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Who hates diesel?
The general public sees diesels as noisy and stinky, which is the main reason we haven't seen them in pass. cars in North America. GM didn't help that image when the produced the 5.7. Now that diesels are cleaner and quieter, Mercedes and Audi are turning up the marketing dollars for this market. A small diesel that consistently gets 30+ mpg makes more sense than any hybrid.
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Rob_NC
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10/03/09 10:46am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: What Do You Do When Regeneration Is Impossible?
There are 2 types of regen, the free kind AKA passive regeneration where elevated EGTs oxidize soot without the injection of over price diesel fuel and the expensive kind, AKA active regeneration where expensive diesel fuel is used to elevate the temperature of the DOC to oxidize soot. If a truck is pulling a load, it should be enough to activate an active regen at speeds below 50 mph when needed. The ONLY reason the owners manual says to drive this fast is for the majority of trucks that aren't pulling a load. This will help get the EGTs high enough to start fuel injection into the DOC and have it burn completely. Not knowing the individual control strategy for each OEM, I can only comment on what I'm used to and the way it works. In theory though, no matter the control strategy, the end result is the same.
Passive regeneration occurs any time the EGTs are at least 250C. However, I can't comment on whether passive regeneration is accounted for in any OEM control strategy. In theory, it should be and a shame if it isn't. Each OEM should know the balance point where soot formation and soot oxidation equal each other. It's at this point where the soot load of the filter should neither increase or decrease. If EGTs are higher than 250C for an extended period time, the amount of soot oxidation will increase beyond the level of soot formation and the soot load of the filter will decrease. Again, I don't know if this is accounted for in any OEM control strategy.
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Rob_NC
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09/22/09 07:47pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: What Do You Do When Regeneration Is Impossible?
I wish you would know what you are talking about before you open your mouth. The truck is always in passive regen mode. Unless placed in active mode buy a tech with the proper scan tool.
ib516 was simply saying that towing a load should generate enough heat to up the "passive" burn off rate to keep the 80% light from coming on.
Mav
Thank you and well said.
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Rob_NC
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09/22/09 07:29pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: No urea injection on 2010 Dodge/Cummins pickups
So, in your example sited that trucks cost for that trip just went up by what? $54 dollars! In today's economy that additional cost could be the difference between making a profit this month or not! Or we can look at it another way. If you have to refill the urea tank every two tanks of diesel. And it costs $3 dollars to fill the tank. That add an additional $1.50 per tank of fuel. Each and every tank of fuel for the rest of the trucks life. Does not sound like a lot, But what if the cost of that urea goes up to 10 or 20 dollars a gallon? One only needs to look at the cost of diesel to see where this could head.
No thanks, I will keep my emission chocked 6.7L Cummins and forgo the extra cost at every fuel fill up.
Our calculations, based on $4/gallon fuel and $3/gallon DEF show an increase of only $.006/mile to the overall operating cost of a vehicle.
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Rob_NC
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09/13/09 09:08am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: No urea injection on 2010 Dodge/Cummins pickups
Time will tell.
Anyway, this thread really isn't about fuel economy bragging. It's about the use or non-usage of DEF (urea).
I suspect urea will NOT be popular in colder climates, like Canada's prairies, and the Northern Alberta oil sands region, as it freezes at 11*F (-10*C). I have heard that most of the diesel pickups sold in Canada (75% +) are sold in Alberta. It'll be interesting to watch how the oil field companies deal with urea in their work trucks or if they avoid them and choose gassers or another brand.
DEF starts turning to slush at 11F. It takes over 27 hours at -34C to freeze 27 liters completely solid. The EPA has given the OEMs 30 minutes from engine start up to start injecting DEF. Our testing in Thompson, MB in January this year shows it can and will be done. This testing was with the engine at idle only. All OEMs will use electrically heated delivery lines and coolant heated tanks. Bulk storage containers will also be heated. I have 2 trucks based in Winnipeg that routinely travel to Thompson and above and have encountered zero problems related to DEF freezing.
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Rob_NC
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09/13/09 09:03am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: No urea injection on 2010 Dodge/Cummins pickups
hone eagle:
Two of your links are to the same site, FRAM :h who says:
"Cost to operate over a 5 year lifespan is estimated to be the same as the Catalytic Converter technology, including urea purchases over the same period." And even then, I question what Fram knows about anything, they certainly make a junky oil filter...
And, in my mind, increasing the fuel economy of a Ford Superduty isn't a lofty goal. Many current 6.4L owners report single digit mpg numbers. Lots of room for improvement there IMO. So many Ford owners complained when they started driving their 6.4L powered trucks, Fords bandaid was to sell them (not give, sell) an extra deep chin spoiler for $100. Now they eliminated the deep axle gears in favor of 3.31 and 3.55s. They're trying, I'll give them that.
Your last link, labelled "linky", talks about common rail diesel injection systems, and how and why they work well, and are superior to other designs. Good thing Cummins has used that system since 2003. I believe Ford/Navistar began using HPCR in 2007 with the intro of the 6.4L.
I remain unconvinced that Ford and GM will get better fuel economy than the Dodge/Cummins. They may improve their own performance (again, lots of room for improvement with some), but nothing says urea injection is the panacea for diesel engine mpg.
If Ford has done it right, I will guarantee the fuel economy will be better. The fleet of heavy trucks I'm testing with SCR is getting outstanding fuel economy compared to like vehicles with US07 emissions.
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Rob_NC
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09/12/09 05:45pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Ford Scorpion Breaking news-Still called "Power Stroke"
It will be interesting to see how people up north will cope with the freezing of the urea. Read somewhere it freezes at 11 degrees. Does that mean you will run in limp mode if it freezes up? Also read where the urea will cost $2.75 a gallon in addition to the high cost of diesel fuel. This is going to be a headache from day one.
The tanks will be heated with coolant and the lines will be electrically heated. The EPA allows 30 minutes of operation without DEF injection to allow for thawing before any inducement is activated.
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Rob_NC
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09/01/09 03:55am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: What you should know about Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)
The simple rule here is to never buy version 1.0 of anything. Get your 2009 model diesel where they have worked the bulk of the bugs out of the new for 2007 technology, then wait until 2012 or so for the bugs to be mostly out of the new for 2010 technology. The new emissions technology isn't really a problem in itself, just the early buggy versions of it.
There will be more emissions "crap" in 2012.
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Rob_NC
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08/31/09 07:05pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Major diesel news coming...Fords 6.7L SCORPION DIESEL
Read closer, from one of your links:
"Like Ford and GM, Chrysler will use diesel exhaust fluid to scrub NOx from the exhaust but only in its new 2010 Dodge Ram 3500, 4500 and 5500 commercial Chassis Cabs."
The pickups are excluded from that list.
My info is correct -- The Dodge pickups will NOT need to use urea injection in the already 2010 emissions compliant 6.7L Cummins Turbo diesel. That will be a major advantage for Dodge and Cummins considering, also from the link you provided:
It will be a major advantage ONLY if the trucks using DEF don't get better fuel economy as a result.
"DEF starts to freeze around 11 degrees, so heating lines are necessary to keep the fluid warm in very cold weather."
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Rob_NC
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08/31/09 06:37pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: What you should know about Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)
With a DEF will the new diesels need a DPF and other pollution crap? If Cummins went to a DEF will Dodge remove the 6.7L pollution crap?
I have no problems with a DEF system as long as I have good gas mileage and a problem free truck.
I don't want my truck to pollute and have the government target me with a green tax.
If the new diesels are clean, get good gas mileage and are problem free, I may purchase one in 10 or 15 years (I keep my trucks 10+ years). For now I will keep my 08 Duramax.
All new diesels will continue to have a DPF. Dodge uses a NOx absorber catalyst instead of SCR. The downside of this technology is that it uses diesel fuel to clean itself. No fuel economy advantage there.
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Rob_NC
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08/31/09 06:35pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: What you should know about Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)
You have to wonder what measures will be taken to assure that owners are not diluting the DEF. Not that $1 extra for every fill-up is a budget buster, but people are lazy and I can see how this will naturally progress.
I guess the other question is will the vehicle continue to run if you have 20 gallons of fuel left and no DEF? It would be a shame to see $50,000 pickups scattered about the side of the highway for lack of $2 worth of DEF.
Urea dilution will be one the the criteria monitored by OBDII. It measures NOx conversion efficiency of the SCR by measuring NOx into and out of the SCR. If the system isn't seeing the amount of NOx being reduced at the rate it expects based on the quantity of urea being injected, it will initiate a derate.
Engines will derate if the DEF level reaches less than 15% of the tank's volume. It will remain at this derated level for a predetermined amount of time or until the DEF tank is filled. If the key is turned OFF and the DEF tank isn't filled, the vehicle will be limited to 5 mph max speed at next engine start.
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Rob_NC
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08/31/09 06:20pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Ford Scorpion Breaking news-Still called "Power Stroke"
There is a distinct error in this article. It mentions that the exhaust gas passes thru the DOC then the SCR then the DPF. This is wrong. It does pass thru the DOC first, which is part of the DPF. It then passes thru the SCR.
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Rob_NC
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08/31/09 06:08pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Ford Scorpion Breaking news-Still called "Power Stroke"
One of questions I have for the new Ford diesel (and other Makes) is what can of mileage can one expect from a gallon of Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF). How large a tank is going to be on board the vehicle? Are we going to be able to buy Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)at the local diesel pumps or are we going to have to buy at the large truck stops? Are we going to have to carry a spare jug around just to be sure we don't run out?????
The amount of DEF used is directly proportional to the amount of fuel burned. Expect a consumption rate of 2-3% of fuel burned. The on-board tank for a light duty truck will be less than 5 gallons. DEF will be available in nearly every station that carries diesel fuel, auto parts stores, Wally World, truck stops, etc.
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Rob_NC
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08/31/09 06:06pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Ford Scorpion Breaking news-Still called "Power Stroke"
The more interesting question is, what happens if I run out of DEF? Will it run the same? As I understand it; it is just a fine mist sprayed into the exhaust, which turns the NOx into amonia and water vapor. It sounds like a little program override, and you could run without the urea cr@p, maybe without it even!!
All new diesel vehicles will be using OBDII. This system will derate the engine if the DEF tank runs empty, the wrong concentration is used, or is tampered with. Also, most states will adopt an emissions testing program. Kalifornia will be the first with copy cat states to follow. Eventually, it will be manadatory.
The urea forms ammonia gas when heated in the exhaust. The ammonia converts the NOx into pure Nitrogen and H2O.
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Rob_NC
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08/31/09 05:58pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Spy pics of the 2011 SuperDuty test mules
They just keep making them uglier and uglier... now the ugly has migrated from the frontend to the rear?? By the time they're done with it, the whole dam thing will be hideous!
Nothing's uglier than a Chevy, not even these spy pics.
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Rob_NC
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08/20/09 05:39am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Ford
Speculating? I guess you missed what was said in the president's visit to Elkhart Indiana today. Electric vehicles were mentioned many times. Who do you figure is going to be building these vehicles?
Doesn't it seem a bit odd that Obama spoke so much about electric vehicles to an area of Indiana that the RV industry essentially was born in? I mean, he is trying his darnedest to get rid of our beloved tow vehicles which, if that happens, will cripple Northern Indiana. The current OEMs have more than enough factory capacity to build any electic vehicle without expanding. Just how dumb does he think "We the People" are?
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Rob_NC
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08/07/09 01:37pm |
Tow Vehicles
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