RE: 1986 Chevy G20 3/4 ton, 6.2 Diesel
THing you have to remember, is the manufacture gcwr are more of a guidline than a 'WHAT" you should haul per say. If you do as mentioned, stay under 80km/hr vs trying to hit 100 like a lot of us do, then you need less hp, you motor etc may be up t the task! GM at about the time your truck was made etc, in the owners manuals stated, if under 25mph, you could increase tow ratings by 25%. Not that 80kmhr/50mph is 25mph, but hopefully you see the reason. At 60 mph you might need 120hp to move a given load, and need 45hp per 1% grade to hold that speed. Same setup at 50 might only need 80hp and 30 hp.
Many larger trucks in teh class 8 range, are speced based on if they are doing city vs hwy driving. A city/local road rig that really never goes above 50 mph will be speced way different than one that is on the hwy going 60-65 all the time. For your needs, you may very well be fine!
as I mentioned earlier also, your tranny is better from a starting standpoint with the same motor, than a heavier duty 8 lug trans. That trans is stronger per say as it will handle more torque/hp, but from a get up and go stand point, it is not as good! your 5-1 ability is better than the 4-1 of the heavier trans!
Marty
RE: trailer 'balance'?
I'd rather have then another foot back yet! back is better than forward. Some trailers even whenyou have the proper HW %, if the axels are forward, they still will not pull straight! Tilt deck trailers are notorious for swaying behind tow rigs. Because the axels get set forward so the deck will tilt, the balance is all screwy!
Marty
RE: How much HP & torque do I need ?
Sheet..... I used to pull a 3K trailer with a 105hp 292I6! I pull a 12K trailer with a 175/335 diesel, no turbo to boot!
Issue is NOT the motor! it is the cooling system of the tow rig. See if you can fix that frankly! I used to pull my 24' 6500 lb TT at 15K total with a 185HP motor too! granted it had 385 lbs of torque!
I would also not look at a nisheet either! I would fix what you have! you have more than enough motor!
Marty
RE: 1986 Chevy G20 3/4 ton, 6.2 Diesel
I might have an old brochure from 88, IIRC it had the gcwr's for a 6.2. I do recall them being on par with a 305 from that era, which I am pretty positive I mentioned them above reasonably close!
Marty
RE: How much HP & torque do I need ?
Depends upon thetotal wt of the combo. along with number of tires, tire width, frontal area, type of frontal/wind resistance, surface of the road you are on, along with the grade you are goingup, and total speed including the wind you are going against!
Example, a 15K rig with 70# of FA needs 105 hp to go 60 mph, change that out to 90#, you now need 135 hp to go 60 mph. ALong with an additional 45hp per 1% grade you wish to hold 60 mph at! Change that out to 69 mph against a 30 mph head wind.......a LOT o hp is needed!
So to honestly answer your question, it depends! we are not disCUSSing the diaper variety either!
Marty
RE: Got stuck.....
hmmmmm I have gotten rwd, AND 4wd stuck in conditions as mentioned. Even fell into a hole in the middle of an undeveloped lot with my right front tire one time. Took my bobcat and a blinking 4 banger toyota to get my 4wd one ton 454 yadda yadda out!
at the end of the day, life goes on! no one was hurt, live it up, live it down, depending upon how you want to deal with it!
Frankly, if a rwd will work for you, why have the xtra expense of the transfer case and front drive shaft? on the other hand, if you truly need the front drive axel, then buy the thing!
Marty
RE: 1T Pickup special rules and regulations?
I have a call into MNDot about a GVW restriction on a section of I35 through St. Paul (>9000lb trucks are prohibited, but buses and RVs are OK...not sure if this means I can't drive a 3500 p/u there or not).
With the RV trailer hooked up, you're fine.
Empty, the cop would have to be looking REAL CLOSE to tell the difference between a 2500 (legal) and a 3500 SRW (illegal?). They'd probably let you slide even if they did notice.
I recall a set of "2500" badges are about $50 at the dealer!
Being as I removed all badges from my RAM 3500 SRW,the LEO would relly be confused.
My swag would be, the LEO's that enforce this issue, do not care of the rig is a 15, 25, 35 or larger dot class truck. ALL they will care about is the registered wt! If that state is like washington where I live, I buy truck plates in 2k increments. MANY of us with sw 25/35 trucks HAVE to buy a 12K plate based on how our licensing laws are setup. So those trucks technicly speaking. can not drive on that road! If you have a rig with an 8k plate, you are fine, but a 10k or higher plate, your screwed if pulled over. Empty wt does not always count in this instance! as my dually is under 9K, but licensed at 14K!
If the signes say actual or empty wt, then you might be ok driving on this road with a higher gvw truck. THIS sign and law, are what "weight laws" enforce, the ability of the road to handle the wt of the rig! THat is the engineering that goes into weightlaws! not the will the truck carry, perform at a give gcwr etc. Those are performance ratings, as is the road bed wt limits. but at the end of the day, the roadbed design wt limit is what the leo's enforce, not the manufacture wt limits!
Marty
RE: Might be forced to buy Diesel
If I was in your shoes, I would get a GM 6.0 gas with 4.10's. Then go driving. THat rig will get about the same mpg as a diesel. possibly pull a bit slower up steeper grades, ie over 5%. up to that point in time, both will have the same hp to the ground etc.
The gas will weigh some 500-600 lb less, so that chassis truck will have a higher end result potential to towing. Pickup.com did a test a few yrs back, the 6.0 was keeping up with the diesel trucks. granted slower, but if you want to say 3-5mph is SLOWER, go for it. not enough to worry about in my book. I also recal that there was a quote in the article, that stated the 6.0 might have caught the dmax if the hill would have been longer!
My next truck will probably be a gas rig as stated above. my dually diesel gets about the same mpg as sw gas rigs, with fuel being some 40-50 cents per gal higher, it will take many many miles of driving if I would ever pay off the 8G extra cost up front. If I traveled in the 5-10K elevation range a lot! then a turbo or supercharged motor would make sense. Other wise for where you are, a gas will work fine. Hanable that posts on here, pulls a 11K 5w with currently a ford 5.4, a dodge hemi before that. I believe the hemi did a bit better. Both do as well as the cummins he had before that with the same hp. Then you probably were not around back int eh day when one could buy a 10K gvwr dually, with an 8500 gcwr along with a big 6 cyl gas that had all of 105HP! those were the days! I had a 2500 with a 292I6, it could outpull a 454 with double the gcwr! so tow ratings is not all its cracked up to be.
Then the difference from gm, is gm supplies a reciver that is rated to 13K lbs. they do not supply a 5w hitch, hence why you have a 14K tow rating. My dually diesel has a 5K ball mount, as it did not come with a factory hitch, I put a 15K hitch on it, but if you can GM, they will still only rate it for 5K ball mount towing, as that is all the bumper is rated for! but I do get a 16K rating for a 5w! try that one out for size sometime!
Marty
RE: Payload vs Tow rating?
You know Elk, your relatively new here but I won't give you any more sh*t :W I'll just wait for the others.
Come on, GCWR is the most important figure :E Go tell my truck that....
I must have been typiong while you were typing......
GCWR is NOT the most important. My old truck did just fine towing a 12K trailer, with a 12K gcwr mind you! In fact, I would put it up against thesame truck with the auto that was rated at 14K lbs. I'd slaughter it in more ways than one! In fact, in some cases, I would put it up against my dmax, the dmax would lose! other possible testsperformance specs, the dmax would win.
marty
RE: Payload vs Tow rating?
Actually, total payload INCLUDES the passengers. Now camper or bed load, is total payload less # of seatbelts time 154 lbs per!
My truck has a door sticker of 4100, camper load is 3200. My C2500, has a door sticker payload of 3800, camper load of 3350!
GCWR on the other hand, is not a legal term, and Weight cops on the road will nto ticket you for being over or under this amount. Also having been pulled over by a few of them, taken a class or 3 or 4 from them, the axel and gvwr sticker on the side of the door is also not a legal number one has to follow. Most only care what your paid for license/registration says. So my C2500 since I have an 8000 lbs plate, that is ALL I am good too! If I load up to the door sticker gvwr of 8600, get pulled over, I am overwt by 600 some lbs! My dully on theother hand, has a registration plate of 14K lbs, which is over the door sticker gvwr and the sum of the door sticker axel ratings. I am legal to 14K lbs. the door sticker at least in wa st, means squat!
At the end of the day, to me, you still need the proper payload to tow a trailer equal to what ever % HW you need, along with passengers etc. FOr some of us, we will need a Crew cab with 3000 lbs of payload, and will use ALL 3000 lbs of payload while towing a 6500 lbs trailer as I did with my family of 6 that totals 1200 or so lbs when my kids were adult sized teens! We would have typical crew cab 15 series truck at gvwr before loading a trailer. So for me any how. those trucks have ZERO, NADA, NO tow rating ability!
Marty
RE: What would you do...
WHat is so special about leather? Cold in the winter, fries you legs in the summer! dang near as bad as vinyl! The only thing nice about leather from the get go, is the heated seats.
Reality is, your current 6.0 gas is everybit as capable as a dmax. Other than less HP. And the HP difference is pretty minor frankly! Compared to days of yor, when one could get a 105HP motor up to low 200hp in a truck like you have! a low to mid 300hp motor vs a mid to high 300 hp motor, nothing worry about. Yeah the diesel has more torque. BUT the 6l90e has a 4.1 first gear with a 2.05 tc, vs the dmax with a 3.1 first gear, and a 1.73tc. At the end of the day, the gas rig might actually have more torque to the rear wheels than the dmax in first gear!
Marty
RE: Is this a can of worms?
I had a 1990 Chevy 2500 std cab, 8' bed, 2wd, 350cid, 5 speed manual. Today it would be a 1500. It only had 5 lug wheels. Fact is, it was a 1500 short bed extended cab chasis that had a little extra hauling capacity, because it had a regular cab on it, so they badged it a 2500.
Part of this issue is when that body style came out, GM changed the badging/gvwr for a couple of years, then went back to more or less as it is today, and before that. In 88, you couldnot get a K3500 dually, on a SW! IIRC the same in 89. It was 90 before you could get a dualy not in the older 80's body style. The 3500 was a typical 8600gvwr 2500 as most of us would call it. In 89, they came out with a 8600 2500, that had the 350 in it. you had to get a 3500 to get the 454! Other than badging, BOTH were identical!
1500's at the time had a 6000 or 6600 gvwr. 2500's had the 7200 gvwr. Later the 7200 became a ld2500 as the 8600 2500 came back, the 3500 sw became a 9200 gvwr, and a dually with a 10 or 10.5K gvwr came out!
Lots of playing with gvwr's and badging thru the years. Hence why it is usualy better to look at the gvwr/axle ratings than the badging!
Marty
RE: Measuring grade on hills
90 degrees is infinity rise is 100' lets say, run is 0'. 100% is when you rise one unit, go forward 1 unit. hence 45 degrees being 100%. 66degrees if I am doing the math really quick in the brain should be 200%,
I usually use 2% equals 1 degree. WHile not correct to a nats asset, gets me generally speaking, pretty close!
Marty
RE: What would you do...
"IF" you trade, you need a 3500 diesel to equal the payload you wil have with your currect rig. Because as mentioned, the diesel will weigh some 500-600 lbs more than your gas motor. SO in reality, that is a loss of 5000 lbs of tow capacity!
NOt sure how much bigger of a trailer you want, but if a 5w, go to a dually if you have a family! I would even skip the sw3500! My dually has 4100 lbs of payload, my old diesel CC with a9200 gvwr had 2400 lbs. BIG difference in what you can or can not do! A 10K 5w had the old truck at gvwr before adding occupants, this truck I still have 1600 lbs for occupants etc assuming 25% HW!
Marty
Marty
RE: Payload vs Tow rating?
Issue as Dougie pointed out, payload can be gone before you even hook up a trailer. If the rig is at gvw before hooking up a trailer, you have NO trailer capacity! My family of 6 was a bit heavier than dougie, when my 4 kids were adult size teens, we pushed teh scales into the 1200 lb range. Pretty much putting his burb at gvwr BEFORE adding the 600-700 lbs of hw of our trailer. Not to mention the two alaskan malamutes and crates in the bed. Sometimes a canoe, 3500wt generator, 6 bikes, gear for the canoe. It was not uncommon for my CC K3500 to be in the 9-9500 lb range, and it weighed 6600 empty! so 3000 lbs added to my truck, and I was only pulling a 6500lb trailer with up to about 750 lbs of hw depending how it was loaded for what type of trip etc!
Here is a pic of my 88 ext cab, but had the same trailer behind a 96 CC! you can see my sons at age 6 or so, the dog crates, did not have teh canoe, but add a rack, tool box etc......adds a few lbs!
http://imageshack.us/a/img18/204/88k3500andttsept91.jpg width=640
Reality is, if you talk tow capacity, you need to discuss payload! as you can not have one, with out the other! Kinda like HP and torque. For our motors, you can not go forward with out both!
marty
RE: 1986 Chevy G20 3/4 ton, 6.2 Diesel
Then depending upon the view you have, the 700r4 is not a strike against you. The TH400 or 4l80e WOULD be imho. WHile those tranny's are stronger per say, they have a 2.48 first gear vs the 700r4 having a 3.10 first gear. Your rig has an overall low lower than a 4.56 geared rig with a th400/4l80e! so much better gearing to get going. Along with if you got a really good rebuild done. the 700r4 will out perform a stock th400/4l80e.
The real issue is the 120-130hp your motor has! If you can rebuild it, to a 6.5 with a turbo, you can get into the low 200hp range, the trans will handle it if rebuilt properly, and you will have no issues with a 6-7K trailer!
Marty
RE: 1986 Chevy G20 3/4 ton, 6.2 Diesel
Considering that motor has maybe 120-130hp, and mid 200lbft of torque. It is speced equal to a 305v8 at the time. IIRC 3.42 gears are around 10K gcwr, do not remember if they went up 500 or 1000 lbs per GR. Either way, 4.10's might net you 11 or 12K lbs total.
The main goal of the 6.2, was to be a high MPG 305 v8. THe 6.5td was to be a cross between a 350 and 454 of that time frame.
Then if you have a 6 lug 2500, that is IIRC maybe 7200 gvwr max. You had to order a 3500 to get the 8lug 8600 gvwr setup.
If you are on a level, you might do ok. It takes about 105-115 hp to motovate 15K lbs at 60mph. That is about your limit frankly!
Marty
RE: Fifth Wheel Capabilities Truck
This motor has 300plus HP, and it only has teh ability to tow 10K lbs?!?!?!?!? yeah right! This setup has better gearing the the 4sp trannies with 4.10'S! I'd pull my 12K equipment trailer with this truck. My guess is a 12K 5w will tow easier yet, much easier than a TT would, due to better aerodynamics of the setup! Frankly, as long as you get a hard sided smooth walled trailer, with no frontbed room slide, I'd go for it! You should be under the axel wt ratings etc too!
Yeah you will be turning some rpms, like 4K going up hills, in the gear below direct, not that the 6sp has a direct from what I understand....still, you will be in 3rd or 4th gear going up steeper hills, probably in the 50 mph range. The only person that gets tired, is one not wanting to hear a motor turn some rpms! My dmax sounds horrible with a 25K total load going up a 4% grade with the pedal to the metal doing 55 at 3000 rpm. Would imagine the same sound at 5K+ rpm in a as rig.
As long as you can stay under axel wt ratings, the truck will handle the trailer fine! A dmax is rated higher, so the truck etc will handle the trailer.
Marty
RE: 3/4 ton Duramax capacity
The variable I find time after time that affects the factory payload rating is the wheels and the tires on the different trucks.
How do you know this? Do you work for GM/Ford/Ram?
If you look at the specs typically, and truly dig into them, you will find, that the tires and rims are usually the lowest wt carrying denominator. Even then, the axel and gvw ratings get derated per say in light duty vehicles, and even some of the lighter medium duty rigs.
Go to class 6 and above trucks, the gvwr IS the sum of the axel ratings, and many times, like my mdt, the tires were the weak link. It is common on class 8's to have a 25K axel, springs, but tires are good to 20-21K total. As on can only go to that total per axel and be legal!
For a GM 2500HD as the OP isasking about, the tires are typicaly 6100 total, springs 6400, axel houseing around 10K. My dually, the tires are potentially on the rear, the higher number at 10K at 80 lbs, but only 8500 at 65 as recomended, the springs to 9K, axel same as the 2500 at around/over 10K.
Front axel on the other hand, typically it is not the tires and rims, but the axel and springs are the weak link per say.
Marty
