RE: Your thoughts - Trade 09' Lance for Apex Outfitter pop up
the weight difference between soft vs hard side is really not valid
....um, yes it is; especially when comparing the *Caribou* pop-up to say the lightest hard-side on the market: Lance 805: a 357-LB difference.
I think that your lumping all "pop-up" campers into "insignificant weight difference between hard-side and pop-ups" isn't valid. There are myriad pop-up camper styles, manufacturers, and configurations. Example: the entire Four-Wheel line is significantly lighter than the lightest hard-side on the market; the entire Caribou (and I'll bet the equivalent Hallmark) lines are significantly lighter than the lightest hard-side. We have the largest of the Caribou configuration, and it is significantly lighter than many other *pop-ups* :B
Soft-sides:
Despite all your soft-side negatives, we've only encountered 1 bullet-point negative in common with your list: closing down top in driving rain scenario. Other than that, our soft-side is in near factory condition (read: near mint inside and out) after 5 full camping seasons (3 of them in very harsh Southwest climate for a solid month each expedition; 2 in driving snowstorms before we managed to put camper into indoor storage (i.e. we mis-judged the onset of winter, and as everyone now knows, we leave our roof in the up position constantly-- except whilst driving :B)).
Rusty roof latches:
We camp by the ocean, and have sum-total 2-months of salt spray exposure on the roof latches, and not a spot of corrosion over 5 seasons. Perhaps you've got a product that is not weather-rated on your Apex?
Driving away with roof up:
One could easily drive away with 30-amp twist-lock main plugged in, too; or drive away with the side awning out; or, drive away with 2 roof vents up and storage compartment open-- with a hard-side :B
The one point that is really telling (well, to me anyway) is the comment about too little space in the Apex. Without a doubt, you are poised to jump over to a hard-side for sure. If one could boil-down your entire list to one critical point, it is that you are definitely ready for a hard-side at this point (a hard-side to Burning-Man is easily doable) ;)
Appreciate your getting everything off your chest!!
Cheers,
Silver-
Silver,
The weight issue is on like units. The point being if the same wall was composed of hard material vs soft weblon the weight savings is minimal. I would be foolish to compare apples to oranges. With everything else being equal a soft wall does not save enough weight vs a hard wall to really matter.
My bullet point are exclusive to hard side /soft side issues and anything that is directly related and do not relate to global camper issues. Leaving the top popped open on a soft side would not happen on a hard side.
I live a one mile from the ocean and my latches are rusted and one of them I have had to replace.Minor issue yes..fact..yes!
I could really care less if you or anyone else agrees with MY list of concerns. They happen to be my concerns that are posted as my facts regardless. Whether you have them in common does not mean they are not so.
I am not poised to jump to a hard side. I am not the one that solicited thoughts. I have had my Apex for 4 years and a pop up Wildernest for 15 years before that so, it is safe to say I am a soft sider. I do have a hard side to me and thus is why I had a bullet point on the lack of humping clearance. Possibly unfortunate for you that we did not have that in common as an issue.
My chest has always felt fine. I have nothing to get off my chest.I have posted some useful non biased information for the prospective camper consumers out there. If one construes "negative" comments as venting then so be it. To me it just balances the hype.
I think perhaps you missed the boil-down point of the list.
:S
RE: Your thoughts - Trade 09' Lance for Apex Outfitter pop up
why would that "list" have to be PM'd? That sounds like it defeats the purpose of this forum.
Yes it would defeat the purpose!
The advantages of the pop ups have been discussed many times but the down sides are not always mentioned. So here are the ones that come to mind. Not in any particular order. These are issues that those with hard sides may not encounter..
High winds in excess of 50mph get real nerve racking.
Ambient noise from outside.
Conversations and noises from inside emit outside.
Once roof is popped up you cannot walk on roof. (makes cleaning the solar panels difficult).
Structural integrity of camper is lessened due to the roof not boxing in frame.
Cannot leave camper popped down for too long after closing when raining and wet.
Condensation when in freezing temps.Wet sides must be popped back up and dried.
Forgetting to latch roof down and driving away.
Not much room in bed over cab, increased possibility of hitting head.Not enough humping clearance.
Cannot get to storage under over cab bed when popped down (new design may have fixed this issue).
Soft sides can be damaged easier by tree branches swaying in wind.
Bird******and other harsh chemicals must be cleaned of promptly.
Plastic windows must be kept clean or they get scratched up and make viewing difficult.
In very dusty ,windy environments there is dust leakage around Velcro window fasteners.
If roof has a load on it such as a kayak or utility bin, it must be unloaded to pop up roof.
Soft sides get wear spots that leak water.
Latches that secure roof down get rusty and need replacing.
Items placed in camper must be taken into account when roof is lowered as to not interfere.
Any cabling running up side walls to the roof must routed as to not get kinked or broken when closing roof.
Although most features can be accessed when roof is closed,it does get cramped.
When popped up the stealth factor is removed when spending nights in parking lots.
The insulating factor of soft walls are not as good as hard walls.
Longevity of side walls even under the best scenario are not as long as hard sides.
There is always a possibility of crank up mechanism failure.
In dusty or muddy locations the soft walls require extra care in cleaning and maintenance.
Shower enclosure must be dried before collapsing or reopened latter or wooden sides and curtain will mildew.
Less internal cupboard space.
Long items such as extra long fishing poles and long tent poles cannot be place conveniently inside.
And it does only take a few minutes to pop up and down but walls have to be sucked in correctly.
Come on Pop Up owners fess up to other "issues" you have encountered that are of applicable to pop ups versus hard sides. No matter how trivial. Thoughts are wanted on Lance vs Apex and what may be trivial to you may be a show stopper for others.
And come on.. the weight difference between soft vs hard side is really not valid. The COG yes..but weight it is so very little.
Hope this helps.
Dirtstu
RE: Your thoughts - Trade 09' Lance for Apex Outfitter pop up
dirstu, what maintenance of the soft sides do you do? I haven't touched mine since I bought the Apex in 2004! Should I be doing something that I've neglected? :E
It would depend on the environment you set up under...
If you ever set up in a dusty environment.
If you ever set up and taken down in the rain.
If you ever set up in the freezing temps and suffered inside condensation.
If you ever set up on the beach and been sprayed by sea salt.
If you ever set up in a smoggy, dirty air city.
Each of these scenarios (IMO) should call out for cleaning and protecting of the soft sides.
After I get home from a trip I pop up the top, wash with mild soap and water, dry, then apply vinyl cleaner,vinyl conditioner.
I also clean the plastic windows with Plexus plastic cleaner.
Under less severe environments I suppose a once a year cleaning would be ok. Also guess it depends on what is considered acceptable condition of the soft sides.
Even with my cleaning regiment my walls have mildew stains,small cuts and misc. wear marks. I could only imagine what the walls would look like not maintained.
I had a Wildernest pop up before the Outfitter. I maintained it also and it was in great shape the day I sold it...others that did not maintain are not so lucky as their tops are destroyed. I'm not taking any chances on the Apex!
I camp in brutally dusty places such as off road races in the deserts southwest. Also camp at BurningMan which is the epitome of harsh environments.
Your situation is probably less severe and may not require action.
If this were a hard side it would only involve a hose down and be done with it. But on the soft sides there are special considerations.
There are many that praise the Outfitter because of its many advantages...and rightly so...but someday I will bring to light all the disadvantages...most likely after I sell my Apex. Bottom line on this side topic is if one thinks a soft wall will hold up like a hard wall and are as easy to maintain as a hard wall... you ARE misguided.
:)
DirtStu
RE: Your thoughts - Trade 09' Lance for Apex Outfitter pop up
I "Off Road" my Apex often.
Often wondered if I had hard side if I could be making some treks like THIS !
If you are going to truly off road your rig then I would also suggest stepping up your tie down system !.
Been on many roads I would never attempt with a "Lance"....
http://www.stuver.com/trips/2006-06-10%20Deep%20Creek%204X4/2006-06-10%20Deep%20Creek%204X4%2017.JPG height=472 width=365
Independently controlled air bags on the suspension sure help keep things upright.
Remember though ... the pop up comes with a plethora of down sides...number one being maintenance. I spend countless hours maintaining the soft sides. Do not fail to figure that into the equation.
RE: Three OUTFITTERs spotted on the hoof !!!
Did you spot my Outfitter at Burning Man 2009?
http://view.ds1.photoshow.com/media/ud8KR9yC/w638/h479/b898391eaad5d61ea519e67907e92d69.jpg
Sometimes there are distractions involved in spotting them Outfitters.
