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RE: Another AGM conditioning question

Download the FREE Lifeline battery manual Turn to page 21 Conditioning You need to disconnect batteries being conditioned from the coach as conditioning voltage is damaging to RV components. Can whatever you are using for a charger regulate voltage to 15.5 volts and stay there hour after hour? The hassles of where in the system the coach converter hooks to and then directing it to a single series pair is just awful. Not feasible. Connecting a 36-amp MEGAWATT to an isolated from the coach series pair is feasible. And the Megawatt has an EASY TO GET TO voltage adjustment screw - wide open to the outside world. And turned up, it can reach high conditioning voltages and stay there, hours, days weeks. Constant And adjusted to 14.4 volts, it charges the batteries correctly. To 14.4 volts. For hours and hours if necessary. One pair of L16's 400 amp hours, one half of which is 20 amperes charge current. Until amperage falls to 2.0 amps then the battery is charged like Lifeline insists on. I like the Meanwell RSP 1000-15 Because it has enough amperage to take the entire bank to 14.40 volts AUTOMATICALLY even when the batteries are in service. Just flip a switch you can leave it on for a hundred hours and it can not hurt the batteries. Forget theoretical float voltages -- what I am talking about here is at 14.40 volts turn it on and then shut it off when you remember to, or the rain stops or in the morning or when you find your slippers. You MUST SEE less than 8.0 charge at 14.40 volts MINIMAL HOTEL LOADS then the batteries are charged. This is a NORMAL EVERYDAY RECHARGE for Lifeline batteries. Anything less, kills the batteries. And Platinum Plated Plutonium batteries require the same care. Prove it to me that Lithium battery lifespan does not suffer if CONSTANTLY undercharged... For the price of a power supply, hundreds and hundreds of dollars of damage is done because of incorrect charging. Given enough AGM batteries the damage amounts to thousands of dollars and every cent wasted is utterly needless. The Lifespan of a Lifeline is one thousand cycles at 50% depth of discharge. It raises to three thousand cycles at a shallower depth. I purchased a group 31 Lifeline in 2012. In October it's capacity test was 99.1% In 1991 I purchased 2-volt flooded batteries -- they are still in service. And I am lazy as hell. I do not play manservant to my batteries. SCREW amp hour meters for battery management. No meter on earth equals a human brain and a little knowledge. You can disbullshit an amp hour meter by terminating a charge when the amp hour meter says the batteries are full then connect a power supply set to 14.40 volts and have your hair stand on end when you see black & white proof just how much WRONG your amp hour meter is. An amp hour meter gives a reasonable reflection of how much power was used. But for recharging only the straight old fashioned AMPS will give an idea of when the batteries are charged. ONE HALF OF ONE PERCENT ... PERIOD Salesmen touting the ability of their amp hour meter to accurately determine a battery's correct fill, need a converter's positive cable stuck up their *** and the "Equalize" button pushed again and again until the salesman changes his mind Care to see an amp hour meter control charge voltage to 14.40 volts and then switch to float when amperage reaches .5% of set amp hour capacity? It does not exist. Press THIS button again and again or THAT button again and again is stupid. Flipping a switch then returning when convenient and switch a power supply off is less stupid. And it does not have to be done every charge. Try every seven days. If it takes four hours or four days to reach .5% it does not matter. Try that with a converter / inverter / perverter. If I was forced to deal with short battery life and Alice In Wonderland hookah smoking caterpillar calisthenics with converters like I read on this forum I would junk the batteries and move to a hotel and ring down for room service. The definition of LAZY I have a UPS system sitting next to my bed. For lights and a BiPAP. A Lifeline AGM. With twin meters. Amps and volts. A voltage adjustment knob. Floating? Glance at the voltage and room thermometer. No longer cold at night? Tweak the potentiometer. Maybe once a MONTH Power outage? When power is restored I tweak the voltage knob. Elapsed time 3 seconds to set to 14.4. I arise and have coffee. Ooooooooooops the battery has been at 14.40 volts for 8-hours. I plumb forgot. Oooooooo the amperage is at .48 amps. Guaranteed full battery. Tweak voltage to 13.4. Elapsed time four seconds. Yeah the meters and the knob is mounted on a bedside table. Yawn, reach over and tweak, swivel neck and read meters. This is the epitome of lazy. Disgusting. For an AGM that has outlived 99% of the automatic mismanaged AGMs. Using a Meanwell or Megawatt as a de-B.S.'er is even easier. Just make sure the monitor is connected correctly showing amperage flowing into the battery. When it reaches .5% of amp hour capacity amperage, shut off the charger or not. Sometime reasonably soon, like maybe tonight, shut off the power supply. Once a week or 10 days. I simply do not have the money or low intelligence to believe plug and play. The premise is absurd and I have better things to do and purchase than fighting BS battery management. I can reasonably expect 12 years of service out of my Lifeline. And my 2-volt cells are of an age where they can legally purchase alcohol and inhale destructive distillates of burning vegetation... Meanwhile back at the ranch... Read the Lifeline manual about conditioning. And try to survive the needless replacement of battery replacement twice as often as need be...
MEXICOWANDERER 03/11/18 03:04pm Tech Issues
RE: Another AGM conditioning question

As long as every single cell avoids overheating apply 14.4 volts even if it takes four days at 24 hours per day charge time. Naio's predicament is she feels sensitive about over-amping the Megawatt which is a valid concern. It is a tough power supply but reasonable is reasonable. It is designed to augment a properly sized converter, not replace it. AGM batteries have a formidable charge acceptance. With the 2-story Lifeline 31 I have whacked it with 137 amperes to achieve 14.4 absorbsion 14.4 volts limit. My error with Naio is I somehow believed she was dealing with wheelchair batteries. So right off the bat I was standing on non-existent ice. By virtue of physics and chemistry only a cell short or multiples thereof can cause an AGM battery to overheat if voltage limited charging is employed. So checking the battery by hand (an infra red scanner is easier and best) will reveal excess heat either in a single cell or series cells. WEAR EYE PROTECTION! Please! I mean it! Once a rig's converter set at 14.4 volts has amperage slump to LESS than the power supply's max amperage limit, then the power supply can constant voltage charge the battery for hours and even days if required. ============================================================================================================================================================= Let's use some common sense in diagnostics... A 135 amp hour AGM as an example. Connect a charger to it -- converter or power supply it does not matter Over whatever amount of time it takes, by keeping track, and voltage limiting to 14.4 it seems as though the 135 amp hour battery has taken 290 amp hours worth have charging and has not had its amperage decline to one half percent of total amp hour capacity (in this case less than 6.75 amps)... The battery is bad If amperage ALMOST declined to 6.75 amps than try the battery under load and if it works to your satisfaction then it works. If it falls flat on it's face it fails meaning a bad battery. Think of a five gallon bucket. If you jam 6 gallons into it, is it a five gallon bucket? No. It has a leak. A battery operates on chemistry so the leak can be twiddled with -- to a point. By equalization or conditioning charging. If it fails to respond to equalization or conditioning twiddling then you have a bad battery. If you want to be snotty about the protocol All batteries have a charge efficiency factor measured in percentage of overcharge needed to bring a discharged battery to full charge from being discharged. A neglected battery has a moderate fault in amp hours needed to return to full charge A bad battery can never be returned to full charge. Endless charging, never reaching one-half percent of amp hours at 14.4 volts, or reaching the magic figure but then rendering a notable lack of ampere hours of charge storage. The lack of charge storage can be treated with conditioning. The never reaching the one-half-percent even with ridiculous amounts of excess amperage at 14.4 volts is like allowing an at bat hitter slack. But "Strike twenty-seven you're out" should be ample proof the battery is scrap. Hope this helps...
MEXICOWANDERER 03/07/18 01:28pm Tech Issues
RE: Another AGM conditioning question

Do you have another healthy enough battery you can hook the questionable AGM to, in parallel? The MEgawatt will self limit to its maximum amperage. My meanwell on a ~60AH calcium calcium maintenance free starting battery drained to 10v had to be turned down to its lowest setting to keep amperage below 20, as moreamperage than this the battery temperature rose quickly. My meanwell is capable of 40 amps. A battery drained as low as the OP's I would likely not even bother with, unless I paralleled another 12v battery to it and then put then put the charging source on the other battery. I'd still not have much hope. While most flooded deep cycle say 0% charged is 10.5v, I see 'some' AGM's saying voltages in the mid 11's equal 100% dischrged: Crown1 AGM pdf saying 11.64 is 100% discharged If the battery was slowly brough to 1.7v i doubt I would waste any time effort or electricity trying to get it to rest above 12v ever again. Even if it did, a small load would likely have it back below 10.5v again as its capacity is likely long gone. but best of luck and keep flammables away from it
landyacht318 03/07/18 01:24am Tech Issues
RE: Another AGM conditioning question

Megawatt does not seem like a good solution if it does not self limit the amps at the max rating. Or are you adjusting the voltage while connected? Set at just 1 volt over the battery voltage. Increase 1 volt when amps are steady or dropping. Do you have a different charger or some jumper cables? Standard converter would be better. If you can jump the battery to get the automatic charger started I think you could leave it charge overnight in a safe place.
time2roll 03/06/18 11:23pm Tech Issues
RE: Another AGM conditioning question

Glad to hear there may still be hope! But how low a voltage can the MW put out? This battery won't take 13v. Even with the MW at 12.36v, amps still kept going up albeit more slowly, about 1a per 30 seconds or so. So I got in maybe 5 mins of charging before it hit 30 amps. But that 5 mins took me up to 6v ;). I am not sure if the Megawatt goes much lower? Also I gotta do this on a dry day, as there is no roof :B and I have to sit there staring at the ammeter.
Naio 03/06/18 10:58pm Tech Issues
RE: Another AGM conditioning question

This info wasn't published...time spent charging =+ total amp hour capacity. I know of no lead acid battery that has recovered successfully from a 50% cell voltage that had spent time utterly and totally depleted. 0.00 volts, then a rebound to 50% voltage after extensive charging attempts. With something like a Megawatt, current limiting through a light bulb (amperage throttle) is the only safeguard that would prevent runaway. A 25 watt bulb would limit current to two amperes and change. Hasn't had a heartbeat in a half hour would be an appropriate analogy as to why mouth-to-mouth would be futile. Sometimes it's best to yell "Uncle" and settle for a low battery cutout.
MEXICOWANDERER 03/06/18 06:32pm Tech Issues
RE: Another AGM conditioning question

Addendum: Megawatt now at 12.36v, amps still going up but more slowly, about 1a per 30 seconds or so.
Naio 03/06/18 02:02pm Tech Issues
RE: Another AGM conditioning question

Hi guys. I got too sick to deal with the agm chassis battery for an extended time, and now I am back to it. But no matter what I set the megawatt at, the amps just go up and up. Then I turn down the megawatt til watts are about 24, and they climb again. Within two minutes, over 30. My last try was 13.18 volts. I know above 32.4 amps will burn out the megawatt. Should I give up on this battery? Is there something else I should try? Thanks a bunch for any advice.
Naio 03/06/18 01:46pm Tech Issues
RE: Lifeline Battery Recovery experiences?

Loss of capacity means you get 11 volts when charging is complete. That's my interpretation at least. Sounds like you're beyond that point. It could be a manufacturing defect allowed the glass mats to dry out and the battery is now toast. If you dig around on YouTube there's videos on how to rehydrate an AGM battery... It involves drilling. If you want to try rehabilitation, pull those batteries from the RV and work on them somewhere a rupture or explosion won't do much damage. You'll need a beefy adjustable power supply like a Meanwell or Megawatt, a standard battery charger won't hit the voltage needed.
GordonThree 03/05/18 09:21am Tech Issues
RE: Megawatt Article

There is this one, which I was following, but nothing further was forthcoming. I have the megawatt and works well for manual charging/equalizing. Was interested to have the pot to replace the hard to adjust thingy, and the timer. https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/29066221.cfm
Byrogie 02/26/18 12:20pm Technology Corner
RE: Megawatt Article

I have been away from this forum for several months for personal reasons. My question is did the article on the Megawatt as a battery charger ever get done? If so could someone point me to it? I think this is what you want
theoldwizard1 02/24/18 06:42pm Technology Corner
Megawatt Article

I have been away from this forum for several months for personal reasons. My question is did the article on the Megawatt as a battery charger ever get done? If so could someone point me to it?
iagary 02/24/18 06:26pm Technology Corner
RE: Hydraulic Generators

I like my own personal natural gas field and 1 Megawatt Worthington natural gas generator to sell power back to the utility. With enough dehumidifiers, I could get structure humidity down to 20% with 22c. Even the garage which houses my Rolls extended chassis and Oshkosh touring rig. Nice to dream. I was forced to use a hydraulic test bench to test alternator output curves from 500 RPM to 3,000 RPM. The winner was my 50DN Delco that develops 80 amps at 500 ALTERNATOR RPM.
MEXICOWANDERER 02/21/18 01:20pm Tech Issues
RE: Half Baked Survey / Battery Management Panel Meters

Magnum remote (ME-ARC 50) connected to the Magnum inverter/ charger. Solar- Magnum PT100 charge controller connected to the inverter/ charger. Scrolling through the menus. DC Meters DC Volts shows voltage from the battery bank connected to the inverter. DC Amps meter shows current going in or out of the battery. AC Meters AC voltage output either inverting or passing through from grid/ generator. Load Amps meter displays the total AC current delivered to the loads on the inverter’s AC output terminals. A positive (+) Load Amps value indicates power is being pulled from the inverter to run an AC load—either using the batteries in Inverter mode, or from the AC input source in Standby mode. Input Amps meter displays the total AC amps being used by the inverter for charging and for any load connected to the output of the inverter. Inv/Chg Amps menu displays the inverter or charger amps and is shown as an AC value. A negative (–) amps reading indicates the inverter is powering the inverter loads, and the batteries are discharging (inverter amps). A positive (+) amps reading indicates the inverter is using the AC input source to charge the batteries (charger amps). PT charge contoller menu Charging status -Bulk Charging, Float Charging, Sleeping Faults (if present) Power status Relay status Battery amps Power to Batteries- Now: This display shows the power out of the PT controller occurring now (in Watts). Life: This display shows the total power out of the controller since it was installed (shown in Megawatt-hours or MWh). PT Ground faults PT Data (past 255 days)- KWH Harvest total, Max PV, Max battery volts, Min battery volts, On/Work time, Max power. PT Faults History LiFePo4 Battery Management System connected to a 7" display showsz live time readings. 1st screen- pack voltage, pack current (amps being used or charging), pack capacity (state of charge in percentage), Min/Max Cell Voltage, Alarms and Warnings. 2nd screen- shows individual cell voltage & individual cell temps,5 batteries x 4 cells = 20 cells
Itinerant1 01/08/18 12:56pm Tech Issues
RE: Inverter AGM questions

Any time there exists a possibility of over amping the wire conductor or damaging the generating supply voltage, fuses should be used. Inside the Megawatt and Meanwell power supplies for instance there are circuit board 10-amp AC fuses. When an alternator shorts to ground, voltage at the field decreases so rapidly, the alternator cannot over-amp itself to death. This can be shown on a test bench where over-loading the alternator will quickly bring amperage potential down from say 130 amps to 20. A seven gauge power wire would therefore be intrinsically protected against over amperage. When power to the rotor field is slumped output is slumped. Therefore protection for this line is because the battery can cause wire overamperage not the alternator.
MEXICOWANDERER 01/05/18 06:03am Tech Issues
RE: Amish Cooling Unit

Old technology isn't necessarily bad technology. If it works, it works. More efficient (and expensive) electric compressor units are great if you can afford them and you have the electricity to run them. If you need to run on propane then the absorbtion fridge is the way to go. I rebuilt my fridge with an Amish cooling unit and it's been great. About half of my camping is without hookups so I need the ability to run the fridge off of propane (I don't have a multi-megawatt battery bank and solar system).
turbojimmy 12/25/17 06:22pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Your opinion of Battery Desulfators

Mex made a mistake. Mex was thinking Meanwell but his fingers insisted on Megawatt. Many thank you's Landyacht because that was a BIG blunder. Having a device that requires multiple turns makes it a lot tougher to jar or disturb the pot enough to cause unintentional unperceived adjustment error. Meanwhile back at the ranch Mex promises not to be multitasking six errands when addressing a tech issue. Such an error is damned near unforgivable -- snort.
MEXICOWANDERER 12/23/17 12:50am Tech Issues
RE: Your opinion of Battery Desulfators

To think these gizmos work is like believing children can be sent to school where a teacher can impart values, honesty, social graces, as well as an education. The education system is a babysitter -- put the little monster on the bus... Not Going To Happen... I guess for the hundredth time I shall repeat this: The lead acid battery is a chemical laboratory in which electricity is a curious by-product. Guesswork -- the responsibility of proper battery management is totally up to the individual. There is no "automatic device" in battery management. There are helpful aids. One has to remember the (then) not inexpensive VX-66 miracle engine renewal kits sold in magazine ads... "Simply drop the pellets into the gas tank and pour the liquid into the crankcase and while you drive the cylinder walls and bearings will be plated with a smooth sealing renewal that will dramatically improve power and performance" The public bought into this by the hundreds of thousands. They believed in the process whole heartedly. If challenged they would become defensive, often aggressive, ridiculing the idea that their miracle was not real. A person cannot see, hear, or smell electricity. It takes instrumentation. For many people that first step alone is too much to bear -- for lack of education, interest, or even showing disdain, they will revert to opinion, derived conclusions, and seek fellow travelers in the process. With a storage battery, such warping of reality is easy to do -- no two environments are the same, like the blind men describing the elephant, they tout their opinions with enthusiasm. There is only one single solitary way to properly manage a flooded lead acid battery -- when in doubt examine battery chemistry. Determine what's actually going on inside the cell. By measuring battery acid density -- with an instrument. Measuring acid density will provide an anchor point. Like the necessity of re-zero'ing an amp hour meter, battery gravity will zero out guesswork and will establish "way-points" to ease the learning of battery characteristics. Once a battery has had a chance to make equal the density of acid in all cells, then instrumentation can be used to manage the battery until another "zero-reset" becomes necessary. By PICKING ON the habitual weak sister, the cell that sulfates first, a hydrometer needs to be used only once. If that cell is up and running properly the remaining cells will also be operating OK. And again (how can I make this even clearer?) the dipping of the weak sister cell only needs to be done when doubt exists about battery performance. Like recovery from a discharge that has taken the battery to "8 volts" The only sane and sure way to correct a sulfated battery cell is to follow the regimen that has been used for the last 100+ years. Physics has not changed -- attitudes have. Find out the capacity of six cells. It can be one or two batteries (working with three cells is more difficult due to lack of a means to charge the three cells) The formula is simple. Achieving the formula is less simple but it is easier than it appears on the surface... A constant current, current meaning amperage of close to 5% of the rating of total amp hours (the 20 amp hour rate) is impressed on the battery following a regular charge to get the battery as full as possible. Constant current means exactly that. Let's use a badly sulfated 100 amp hour battery as an example. 5% of 100 is of course 5.0 So five amperes is the magic number. Vary from this formula is then the results will be like guessing at how to bake a cake... 350 degrees for 25 minutes does not mean 1,750 degrees for 5 minutes nor Five hours at 70 degrees. A battery charging device is needed that can attain 16.0 volts. Sixteen volts at however many amps is called for in the 5% formula. And amperage must remain constant. No starting at 40 amps dwindling to 2 amps at 14.9 volts. This means a GENUINE battery charger must be used. Like with many chemical processes, some cheating is permitted. A Megawatt or Meanwell power supply can be used. To throttle current to a reasonable "near five amps" a 12 volt light bulb can be connected inline with the battery charger's positive charge wire. This is a connection done in "series". Positive wire in, positive wire out. With the Megawatt it cannot reach 16.0 volts, so the adjustment "knob" must be turned up to maximum -- around 15.6 volts. It's cheating but the reality cops will permit a little deviance. With a 15 series Meanwell the adjustment pot has to be set with a meter to 16.0 volts. The 15 series can exceed 16 volts and a tiny bit higher than 16 is OK but is limited to one or two tenths of a volt. Charge the battery as full as it can get with your converter, then disconnect the battery ground cable. Pop the cell caps off and note all cells should not have the plates exposed to air. Connect the Meanwell or Megawatt using the 12-volt lamp in series with the positive charging cable. A FIFTY WATT 12-volt light bulb is close enough for 6 cell RV batteries. A HUNDRED WATT 12-volt bulb is close enough for a pair of golf car batteries connected in series to make a 6-cell 12 volt circuit. Power up the Mega-Meanwell. Note the electrolyte in all cells. You will be monitoring the presence of bubbling. If it takes one hour or ten, one of two things must happen... 1. Rechecking the weak cell with the hydrometer indicates it is fully charged. 2. 16.0 volts is reached. Either way the charging is to be stopped. Allow the batteries to cool down to room temperature. The electrolyte will CONTINUE to equalize for almost an hour while the batteries are cooling down. Then hydrometer check all cells. Those that have not reverted to original density are going to be a persistent problem -- live with it or buy new batteries. This is the age old BATTERY COUNCIL INTERNATIONAL equalization formula and it was used on hundred ton battery banks on submarines in World War II. Physics does not change. Nor does chemistry. HOW TO RADICALLY DELAY THE ONSET OF SULFATION Once per 20 cycles of 50% discharge OR 3 months of maintenance by a smart charger or converter... TOP CHARGE THE BATTERY Set the Meanwell or Megawatt to 15.0 volts and allow it to charge for a half hour with a single 6-cell battery, or one hour with golf car batteries. No current throttling light bulb need be employed for Top Charging. If you follow the top charging regimen it will eliminate the need for about 95% of the full, elaborate equalization charges needed. AND MIND YOU Power Post Princess, lightly used batteries may NEVER need to be equalized. But their lifespan will be shorter than it could be. Trying to compare experiences gathered between a heavy battery user (boondocker) and a weekend warrior or a few weeks per year camper, both having permanent power after their trip is like... Hearing someone belittle and argue with a chef "when a package of Twinkies is so easy to tear open" is all too common and it is frustrating. The remnants of "slip the tablets into the tank and pour the syrup into the crankcase" mentality.
MEXICOWANDERER 12/20/17 12:58pm Tech Issues
Plug In Receptacle Timer

This otter make hooking up a Meanwell or Megawatt easier. Plug this into an outlet Plug the Meanwell or Megawatt into this timer Select a time button, choose 1 hour 2, 4, 8...whatever... Walk off Remember about it next Tuesday. No harm no foul... https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61t%2B%2BdgcwuL._SL1280_.jpg height=500 width=500 AMAZON PRIME! Woods Import Woods Import - Digital Countdown Timer 4.3 out of 5 stars 273 customer reviews 28 answered questions Price: $10.49
MEXICOWANDERER 12/19/17 07:43pm Tech Issues
RE: Replacing my Converter/Charger - Help

Amplitude + time An extreme example. Batteries that are discharged to 30% of capacity then put on continuous power at 13.6 volts for an unlimited time, they will recover slowly and over a period of perhaps 12 recoveries using this formula, over 8-10 months time, become sulfated. That's what they make the Megawatt and dial timers for. To chop the idiotic manufacturer's anti-lawsuit, anti-battery psychosis off at the roots. Even the 29 amp 350 watt unit would work. But some people seem to be afraid of setting up a Megawatt or Meanwell. You can pinstripe a donkey but you ain'g gonna have a zebra.
MEXICOWANDERER 12/19/17 07:16pm Tech Issues
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