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Topic: mountains & automatic diesels
Posted By: eileeneh on 11/22/04 09:37pm

Hi everyone, I divide my time between trying to figure out what to do about getting a truck and what to do about getting a fifth wheel. Well, I'm on the truck again right now. I had settled on a Dodge 3500 Ram diesel automatic and I just found out they have transmission problems when going downhill. I had thought beforehand that I would have to have what I think are called pac brakes. I was told this voids the manufacturer's warranty. Can any of you tell me what to do if I want to get a diesel, specifically that Dodge, and I want to drive in the mountains without overheating the transmission? I certainly don't want to buy a new truck that I think is going to last 20 years and then not be able to drive it as I intend to.

Thanks, Eileen

Posted By: MegaDodge on 11/22/04 09:48pm

I have a Dodge 3500 but with a manual transmission. The truck and engine are bullet proof but I wouldn't buy a 'slush-a-matic trans' for anything. It's the weak link and if you're going to pull a big rig, the heavy duty 6 sp. manual trans is the way to go...... I believe Dodge will warranty the truck with an exhaust brake on a manual transmission. Good idea if you are traversing mountainous grades.

Now you're going to get a ton of advice about how great the automatics are.......hang on..!!

MegaDodge
Dodge CTD 1 ton. 5 speed.
2003 Everest 323P 5th wheel 13000 pounds ready to roll. .

"An honest man is the guy who does the right thing when nobody's looking"


Posted By: eileeneh on 11/22/04 09:59pm

Thanks MegaDodge. What does bullet proof mean? Eileen

Posted By: Gunship Guy on 11/22/04 10:08pm

Eileen,
If you want facts instead of emotional responses regarding manual vs. automatics just PM me. I'm not about to engage in a verbal war over transmission choices.


PICS OF STUFF
Posted By: MegaDodge on 11/22/04 10:12pm

I was refering to the engine being a proven capable engine with an awesome record and reputation, capable of running for 500,000 miles easily with proper maintenance and care, and it is installed in a truck that is extremely strong and well built that stays tight for years. Mine, a 1998 Dodge 3500CTD has 125,000 miles on it, 75000 miles towing, and is as tight as the day it was built.....not one rattle. Not one problem with the engine and drive line...original clutch. Most people don't keep trucks that long, but if you want to.......

Posted By: wilber1 on 11/22/04 10:14pm

You won't overheat the transmission going down hill. Because the torque converter does not remain locked during deceleration, you don't get much engine braking going down hill that's all. You don't get a lot of engine braking with a diesel without an exhaust brake anyway. You will have to use the service brakes more than you would with a manual or auto that does remain locked during deceleration. There is no question of harming the transmission without an exhaust brake.

I tow close to 10000 lbs in the mountains all the time with a 2001 Dodge auto with 4.10 gears. While an exhaust brake would be a very nice thing to have, I have never felt a real need for one. Lots of people are using exhaust brakes with the 47RE transmission (your 48RE is a beefed up version of the same)in the older trucks but it does void the warranty on the transmission. Done properly it also requires mods to keep the torque converter locked and hydraulic pressures up during braking, otherwise you don't get maximum braking and the transmission can overheat. If you are going to tow really heavy and you really want the Dodge, go for the 6 spd with an exhaust brake.

"Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice" WSC

Posted By: fppf on 11/22/04 10:22pm

When towing a standard is the way to go.
You can stay in any gear you want without the fear of over heating the torque convertor or clutch packs. You can also assend grades under full power without the same fear of heat.

If you look at commercial towing apps almost all still use standards. The OTR trucking industry is still using standards but now they make a computer shifted standard. Its a standard tranny but you don't need to shift it.

The only automatic I would ever think of getting in a truck would be an Allison. They have been making TRUCK autos for years in buses and local gov apps. Most large snow plows and garbage trucks are Allison autos. Almost all the MH use Allison.

The type of brake your talking about is called an "exhaust brake". It uses the pressure from the exhaust to help slow the motor and in turn the vehicle. "Pac brake" is just one of a few mfgrs that make exhaust brakes. Jacobs Vehicle systems makes many for dodge, I would use them first, Pac brake second, and Banks third. Just to name a few.

1997 International 9800 Flat Floor COE
2004 Fleetwood Terry Quantuim AX6 365FLTS
Trailair Air Ride Pin Box with custom Fab auto ride height leveling
Trailer Wire Convertors:
2 wire to 3 wire
3 wire to 2 wire


Posted By: mowermech on 11/22/04 10:23pm

Eileen;
Get the manual transmission and learn to drive it. you will never regret it. I agree with megadodge, I would never have a slush-box for heavy towing. The only thing I have done to my truck since I bought it is replace the tires and the alternator. It had 210K on it when I bought it, not quite 2 years ago. See sig.

megadodge;
At the moment, I got ya beat on mileage. They are great trucks, aren't they?!! See sig.

CM1, USN (RET)
'94 Dodge 3500 4X2 CTD, 5 speed, 4.10 LS diff., Jacobs Rambrake, 275,000 Miles
'95 Tioga 29H Ford-based Class C
Daily driver: 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee Hemi
Toad: 2006 Jeep Rubicon LJ
"When seconds count, help is only minutes away!"

Posted By: eileeneh on 11/22/04 10:32pm

Thanks for your suggestions, everyone, but I just hate driving a manual. My first car was that and my husband's Subaru is now. It's enough work to pay attention to everything without having to shift. I know how to do it really well--I just dislike it. Does that mean I have to buy a Chevy? I don't think I'm going to be able to afford one. . .they are expensive and I have no friend to give me an employee's discount.

Thanks, Eileen

Posted By: NGRRFan on 11/22/04 10:33pm

"Bullet-proof" basically means that regardless what you do to it, you can't hurt it.

FPPF is correct in his assesment of Allison transmissions, HOWEVER... the Allison used in a Chevy is not the same as the 3060 transmission used in the larger trucks and motorhomes.

Rich,and Tobi (the rescued dog)
Prowler 5ver, 84 Ford F250
KCOCOLOR78 Weather
Colo. Spgs. CO


Posted By: thiswebs4u on 11/22/04 10:46pm

I love my 'slush-a-matic trans' in my Ford. Rated to tow more than the Ford manual. Is Dodge the same?

Colorado Camping

2004 F-250 PowerStroke SuperCab Diesel 4x4 with TorqueShift trans, Camper and Tow package, limited slip.
PullRite SuperGlide
2005 CF28CK Cruiser


Posted By: Sam Ryan on 11/22/04 10:48pm

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* This post was edited 11/22/04 11:18pm by Sam Ryan *

Posted By: Sam Ryan on 11/22/04 10:49pm

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* This post was edited 11/22/04 11:15pm by Sam Ryan *

Posted By: Sam Ryan on 11/22/04 10:49pm

________________________________________________________________________

QUOTE:
I certainly don't want to buy a new truck that I think is going to last 20 years and then not be able to drive it as I intend to.
_______________________________________________________________________

Let me give you some advice; shoot for 10 to 15 years ownership, or 500,000 miles, total on your future truck.

eileeneh----------------How much weight will you be pulling? And does your trailer have brakes on it?

When my diesel cars have gotten over 15+ years old, the car starts to fall apart faster than the engine and transmission does. i.e. rubber suspension bushings, springs, interior is somewhat worn, electric window lifts, door locks, ignition locks, and on, and on, and on..........who needs it, on a car you've gotten a ton of usage out of?

I now intend to treat myself to a new diesel auto every 10 years or so. Even though the engine and transmission, have usually less than 400,000 miles on them. In my usage factor anyway. My current diesel auto has 100,000 miles on it, and is only 5 years old, and as tight and pretty as drum.

Haven't ever had one I put over 150,000 miles on, and it was 12 years old.
That coach was a _______ Motorcoach, and was still in very good mechanical condition, coach and engine/transmission.

My current coach is a ______ Motorcoach, with 35K miles on the diesel engine, and is two years old.

A 20 year old truck? Yeah, it'll do it, but it'll be ready to star in the 2025 re-release of "The Grapes of Wrath."



What is your favorite Dodge exterior color? Mine is what was called Driftwood, now called Desert Silver, or Desert Sand....(lite Gold metallic) nice!

* This post was last edited 11/23/04 06:44am by Sam Ryan *

Posted By: Sam Ryan on 11/22/04 10:50pm

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* This post was edited 11/22/04 11:14pm by Sam Ryan *

Posted By: fppf on 11/22/04 10:52pm

NGRRFan is correct, they are not the same.
But made by the same people that have been in the truck industry for years. Where as the others have made mostly car tranny's.

We had 1 auto tow truck. It just could not take the beating. Tow trucks are likely the most over used and abused vehicles out there. Our trucks NEVER stopped, they even idled for 10 minutes on shift change. I pulled a 80,000 semi out of a toll lane one night with a 3500. Of course it was on flat land and only for 100 feet, but man did that little truck pull.

Posted By: Sam Ryan on 11/22/04 10:52pm

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* This post was edited 11/22/04 11:12pm by Sam Ryan *

Posted By: Sam Ryan on 11/22/04 10:53pm

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* This post was edited 11/22/04 11:11pm by Sam Ryan *

Posted By: Sam Ryan on 11/22/04 11:09pm

ALL:


Sorry about the duplicates, was using the "BACK" key, instead of the "Edit" key.....

Sorry.

Posted By: joemyers on 11/22/04 11:26pm

This is better than watching TV. I think if you are somehow handicapped then by all means go with with the auto, otherwise your tow vehicle should have a manual transmission. I'm only 65+ and healthy so I'm still work'n a stick shift. JM1CW

Joe, Retired & on the road whenever I want, KeepMov'n



2000 Dodge/CTD 3500 DRW SLT+ 6 speed 4x4, 3.54 rear, Exhaust Brake
2003 Lance 1121 with all the options plus
1999 Toyota Taco V-6 5 speed 4x4 Toad, SMI wireless power brake control


Posted By: thecampingman on 11/23/04 04:02am

I have one of the oldest Dodge/Cummins Automatics there are. It's an '89 and still going strong. 170,000 and it doesn't leave the driveway that it isn't towing over 10,000 lbs. It's my work truck.
I've never had a problem with the transmission. I don't hot rod it, and I change the transmission fluid. With the traffic today I wouldn't tow without an automatic transmission.
The truck had an exhaust brake on it when I bought it. It had been set up to pull a camper thru the Rocky Mountains. The dealer said it spent the first 100,000 miles hitched to a camper. The exhaust brake soon stuck in the open position right after I bought it. At about 140,000 miles the head gasket blew on the engine. My diesel mechanic, who considered one of the best in the state, said it was due to the exhaust brake. He'd seen the problem several times before. The Cummins just cannot handle an exhaust brake and he would not even recomend even the newer vented kind with reduced back pressure. He said it's even worse on the Ford and Chevy diesels.
The good news was that a head gasket cost me less than $500. The really good news was that there was no engine damage. I'm getting really good diagnosing blown head gaskets on diesel engines. I've had three so far. Ford, Chevy and Dodge. One of each. The first clue is loss of anti-freeze.
Anyway, it seems you have lots of options. Standard transmission, or an automatic & exhaust brake with a head gasket around 100,000 miles.
I'd think a better option would be to spec air brakes for the camper. I've always thought those electric brakes weren't enough. My work trailer has electric brakes. They're OK, but it's flat as a fritter here.
I drove a gooseneck trailer with air brakes thru Hillsboro OH with a load of fertilizer. I was daydreaming, and allowed someone to stop short in front of me. Thought I was a dead man! Those air brakes stopped so quick and smooth it didn't even shift the load! There will always be a warm place in my heart for air brakes.
Why blame the truck for something that's the trailers fault? Sure even air brakes will fade on a long grade. But not unless they're undersized. If you're still shopping for a camper, I'd take the problem to the manufacturer.
"I want camper brakes that'll hold the camper AND the truck on a 3% grake for seven miles!"
Upgrading brakes might even be your cheapest option.

'03 GMC 4500 Topkick with Duramax/Allison
'04 36' McKenzie Medallion triple slide
Honda Magna motorcycle mounted on the front of the truck and touring kayaks on the roof
Snowbird W/Ohio camper dock

Posted By: Truth Justice on 11/23/04 04:50am

eileeneh,
The Dodge with the 48RE tranny addressed the problems Dodge was having with their 47RE transmissions. The problem was that Dodge has so much torque that it was too much for their auto transmissions. I put over 37,000 miles on my 2004 3500 Dodge Dually, Quad Cab, 48RE Automatic Transmission, 5.9, 600 Diesel this year which included some heavy duty grades in the Rockies and many others. Never had an ounce of problems with it. Dodge has the 7 year 70,000 mile warranty, which is the best in the industry, and the Diesel has a 100,000-mile warranty on it. I have driven just about everything that has a steering wheel and doesn't go in the air, including piggyback long hauls from California to Florida. I would not be afraid of the new 48RE auto with Tow/Haul in the Dodge at all. The problems you heard about with the Dodge Automatic Transmissions was it the old 47RE or the new 48RE? I sold mine this last month and ordering the new F350 with auto because of the weight ratings on the new Fords. I don't like driving a manual shift either anymore

2005 SunnyBrook Titan 31BWKS, MorRyde SE Suspension, King Dome Satellite. Direcway Internet Access.
2005 Dodge 3500 SLT,Cummins,Quad Cab,L/B,SRW,48RE Auto w/Tow/Haul,Line-X,Chrome Step Bars,Prodigy Controller,15.5K PullRite Hitch,Cowboy Creations V-gate.


Posted By: Veebyes on 11/23/04 06:22am

I spend my time divided between looking at trucks & 5vers too. In some 35 years of driving I have never owned an automatic anything, haven't even had power steering or windows. My only automatic experience is with rentals. I want to be lazy in my retirement driving. I know manual is better. It is great to be able to 'feel' what is going on in a slippery situation with the clutch. My Admiral is perfectly accomplished with the manual too. We just want to be spoiled.

I am partial to the Dodge, if only because we have a Cummins 5.9L in our boat that has been more or less problem free. The problem is the tow rating of the auto vs manual. We are trying to limit our 5ver search to units with a LOA under 35' & rated loaded weight under 15,000lb.

Boat: 32' 1996 Albin 32+2, single Cummins 315hp
40+ night per year overnighter

2007 Alpenlite 34RLR
2006 Chevy 3500 LT, CC,LB 6.6L Diesel

Ham Radio: VP9KL, IRLP node 7995

Posted By: RRUGG on 11/23/04 06:51am

eileeneh...I am on my third Dodge since 1992, all with the much maligned 47re transmission without any problems. Twice a fluid line popped a coupling causing loss of the transmission fluid. I was towing both times and absolutely no damage to the transmission either time. Collectively we're talking about hundreds of thousands of miles. If you want the automatic, get it.

RRUGG
2009 Chevrolet Silverado LTZ 1500 4x4 5.3L
2011 Kodiak 281RLGS travel trailer
2011 Egg Camper
2010 Chrysler Town & Country
Good Sam life members
Bob & Grace professional retirees


Camped in 49 states. Missing Hawaii.

Posted By: LUKE SMORE MAKER on 11/23/04 07:20am

The best thing for you to do if you dont like the manual transmission is to forget the whole dodge thing and go with the ford with the tourqe shift transmission in it. You wont be sorry. They are very tough.

I think they look better anyway.

'04 F350 4x4, 6.0 POWER STROKE DIESEL,5 SPEED AUTO W/ 373 LS GEAR,CREW CAB LARIAT,TRUE BLUE, SINGLE WHEEL REAR AXLE,SHORT BED,HUSKEY 16K EZ-ROLLER SLIDER,PRODIGY VERSION 2.4,ROTOCHOKS,EU2000I HONDA GENERATOR,AMERI-CAMP F321QBS
May the fork be with you!!!!


Posted By: magster on 11/23/04 07:31am

Bah, humbug. Eileeneh, if you want an automatic go for it. We have a 2001 Dodge 2500, automatic, and it pulled our nearly 13,000 pound 5er over every moutain range in the West this summer, and gave us nearly 13 mpg to boot.
Cheers,

Magster

2 retirees
2 dogs, 2 cats and a foul-mouthed parrot
2003 29RL Dutchmen Classic, "The Ark"
2001 Dodge 2500 diesel

Posted By: SidKaye on 11/23/04 07:38am

Eileen, I put 170,000 on my '96 Ram Auto with about half that towing 10,500 lb trailer. NEVER a problem engine or tranny and I used a Pacbrake. New 2003 Ram with Auto currently about 20,000 towing 14,000 lb 5'er over most of the BIG mtn more than once NO problems and I use a Pacbrake for added control in those mtns. I do suggest gauges to really know what temps are. If you want to know more go to TurboDieselRegister

Sidney

2003 Dodge Ram 3500 SLT,48RE, 4:10,Cummins HO Diesel,Quad Cab,LWB,SRW,PacBrake,Prodigy, X-Monitor Gauges,Line-X,Bedsaver

2002 Excel,Ltd,30RGW,Hughes Autoformer,Honda Eu1000i, ClearSpot 4G+,

http://www.kayepics.com

Posted By: eileeneh on 11/23/04 09:11am

Thank you everyone. I'm trying to think about all this. I was told by the lovely man who put together weight information for me for choosing a truck that I am way under weight with an Arctic Fox 24 5 N and a Dodge 3500 Cummins and he precisely recommended this so that I would be safe in mountains. He does not think I will have any problem. But I haven't yet mentioned the manual vs. automatic transmissioin. I like the idea of air brakes on the fiver (never heard of this) and will write to that person directly for more info. I appreciate hearing all of your experiences.

Eileen

Posted By: eileeneh on 11/23/04 09:20am

Hi "campingman" in Ohio, could you please tell me more about air brakes for a fiver? I didn't know this was an option. Are they extremely expensive and hard to put on? Do they work differently from the electric brakes?

Thanks, Eileen

Posted By: Armand_C on 11/23/04 11:21am

I don't know about Dodge, but I know both the Fords and Chevy's have a tow/haul mode on their auto tranny's. I have the Torqeshift tranny and I love it. I was coming down the Hoover Dam area last year with the tow/haul mode engaged. It was a pretty steep grade with a lot of switchbacks and the speed limit was around 25 mph. The auto tranny kept me within the speed limit all the way downhill. I was towing my 7,000 TT and the auto tranny worked great and never allowed the TT to push me downhill. I assume the Allison auto tranny is similar. I wish I could comment on the Dodge, but I don't know anything about them.

2005 Keystone Outback 29 FT bunkhouse model 29FBHS pulled by a 2004 Ford F250 Crewcab shortbed 4x4 with a 6.0L PowerStroke Diesel with torqueshift 5 speed and guided by a Kenwood Excelon navigation system with Sirius Satellite radio, now that's the ticket!!

Posted By: WorkinTooMuch on 11/23/04 06:41pm

As others have stated, the standard transmission is more reliable.

However, if you want an automatic like I did, talk to some independent truck mechanics and automatic transmission mechanics. The automatic transmission will be the weak point of your TV. The concensus of those that I talked to was to go with the Allison. They had the fewest problems.

Me, Wife, Kids, Dogs, Cats, Cows, Horses, and Chickens
2002 Chevy Duramax/Allison
2004 Jayco Eagle 261

Posted By: sharpshooter on 11/23/04 08:20pm

Hi,
I am also looking to buy a new Dodge truck with an auto in it and plan on putting an exhaust brake on it. Cummins and Dodge are working on the problem and the fix is being test now.

Here is a web site that will give you all the info on it.

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76813&page=22&pp=15

You can goto www.turbodieselregister.com for all kinds of info on Dodge/Cummins trucks.

sharpshooter

2006 Dodge 3500, Qudcab, LB,Dually 5.9L Cummins diesel,Jake Brake, auto, Advance folding cover, Pressure Pro LandMark Golden Gate

Posted By: ron b on 11/23/04 12:12pm

Just to add to this string, my Dodge with the six speed diesel is alot easier to drive then a gasser with a six speed. As I learned on this forum before I purchased it, you do not have to add throttle as you let the clutch out, the diesel does it for you. In other words, you do not kill it if you do not add "gas". Another trick that I learned is to shift into low 4x4 when backing up, it reduces the speed in half and it is easeer to control when hooking up the fiver.

ron in illinois

Posted By: buster13h on 11/23/04 12:16pm

Try dodgetruckworld.com and look for the discussions about the automatic tranny and exhaust brakes. I think Jacobs is working on one for the 48RE

2003 Dodge 3500 DRW 6 spd CTD 4:10
2004 Fleetwood Triumph 365FLQS

Posted By: fppf on 11/23/04 03:54pm

You wont find air brakes on a 5er.
I don't know how you would even tow a trailer with air brakes unless your truck has air brakes also.

If you do find an RV type 5er with air brakes, let me know.

Posted By: Ram2001 on 11/23/04 04:07pm

I have a 2004 Dodge 3500 4x4 with the Cummins Diesel and the 4speed automatic. My trailer weights 12,700 so I had camping world install a Pac Brake and so far it works great. The truck has been to the dealers for service since the pac was installed and no comments about it affecting the warrenty so far. My old truck was a 2001 Dodge 2500 with the V-10 and 4speed automatic and I have never had any problems with either transmission.

2004.5 Dodge Ram 3500 SRW Quad Cab LWB 4x4
Cummins H.O. 600, PAC Brake,34 Gal. Aux Fuel Tank
2004 Alfa Sun SF30RL

Posted By: Tobie105 on 11/23/04 05:08pm

I have a Dodge with automatic and banks brake system no problems for 58000 miles been back and forth accross country north and south love it ...

Cedar Creek Rv Owners Club <<-- Come join The fun.

Posted By: Volsforever on 11/23/04 05:16pm

My Allison "slushamatic" seems to be doing well with our Laredo.

Vols Forever!
04 Laredo 29BH
01 Silverado 2500HD CC,
Powered by BIG BLOCK, Driven by ALLIE!
Oh yeah, 99 Dodge Dakota EC, Daily Driver, 20 mpg city, 24 mpg hwy.


Posted By: davelinde on 11/24/04 02:33pm

I had to scroll all the way to the last post to see much that addressed the core issue here. so, setting auto/stick aside...

How big a hill do you need to see to need an EB? I'm having deja vu now. I ordered my 2004 2500 CTD (auto), only to find out after it was too late that I could not add an exhaust brake. I'd never heard of an EB and was researching here just like Eileen has been. For my 2004, it looks like an EB will never be approved by DC. I cannot find a definitive statement that the EB will be OK for an auto trans on the 04.5 or 05. There's lots out there on exactly what is needed to get done, but it's been a year+ now I've heard that DC will say OK any day. So, for an 05 3500 it may be moot and the EB will be approved - or maybe not...

But for me, I'm stuck w/o an EB. But... to date I have not been convinced that my situation needs one! I've towed my setup all over and I'm yet to find a hill that gave me trouble. And I've driven down a lot of long, steep grades in PA, NY, VA, NC and SC. For sure there must be steeper and longer hills in the US and a bunch of people who swear by EB's can't be wrong. However, so far, I've been able to use the stock truck+FW brakes and descend everything just fine.

Dave Lindemulder
Tammy, Mark & Kirsten
04 Dodge 2500 4x4 SLT QC/SB HO-CTD/48RE
01 Volvo VNL660 singled VED12
09 Heartland Cyclone 3210


Posted By: eileeneh on 11/24/04 05:22pm

Hi everyone, I called 3 Dodge dealership service departments in Montana or Wyoming today. They LIVE in the places I like to visit and I just wanted to hear what they had to say. I was told that they sell mainly automatic trucks (very few manual). One said that only the old cowboys insist on manual. I called a place 35 miles from Beartooth Pass, which my little Toyota would not ascend last summer. I was told that if one turns off "overdrive" the trucks are able to go over this pass without problems, and that exhaust brakes are not necessary if one is within towing limits. Few people there have exhaust brakes. One man seemed to know less than the other 2. He said to perhaps look into some kind of transmission cooler. The other two said the Ram 3500 Cummins automatic should be OK, and without exhaust brakes. People drive them there like that all the time, and they tow things too. I didn't feel like these people were trying to bamboozle me. They seemed like honest people telling me what happens where they live. It further confirmed to me that I should look into this truck, which is much less expensive than the Chevy, and use it in mountains with a careful eye on the transmission temp (someone here sent me a private email about this also) and no exhaust brakes. That's the best I can come up with for now. . .thought you might find this interesting.

Eileen

Posted By: davelinde on 11/24/04 05:35pm

hmmm.....

EB's are for downhill only, so the advice about overdrive and trans coolers are well off point That said, a 1 ton diesel is a nice tow vehicle and should do fine in many applications. As I noted, I learned about EB's late and wished for one at one time. I've yet to feel I needed one and I've been down some big mountains.

btw - a 3500 has a big tranny cooler already. I think mine runs a little hot still (stop/go traffic and backing up only) and will be adding an oversized oil pan when I get some time.

Since the truck is still in "planning" stage - one other thing I might do differently... I got 4WD without the limited slip differential. I figured why both? Although it has not been a problem, it might be nice to have 4WD AND limited slip. Again, there are opinions out there on this one.

Posted By: eileeneh on 11/24/04 05:43pm

Hi Davelinde, actually, I was asking about UP and DOWN when I spoke with those people. That's why I got answers on both. What is a limited slip differential? What does it do?

Eileen

Posted By: tgatch on 11/24/04 06:07pm

Quote:

If you do find an RV type 5er with air brakes, let me know.


Hey Tim,

Air Brakes are an option on Tetons I believe. Better get your order in.

Check out Wushaw's Picture gallery he has air brakes on his 5er.

Wushaw's Pictures: http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=4771389&uid=2416888

Posted By: fppf on 11/24/04 06:38pm

I have seen his pics before, those are "Fake" air brakes.
Its actually a "Air Over Hydraulic".
I look on Teton's web site and found nothing about air brakes. They do have electric over hydraulic, which I think Wushaw got and added the air hydraulic part.

I want to get rid of the brake controler, but I ALSO want the spring brakes. This will make it so 99% of the time I wont need to mess with wheel chocks.

Posted By: 4wheelingNUT!! on 11/24/04 08:41pm

I guess nobody has really thought about the budget part, so Eileeneh what kind of budget can you afford? There is all kind of different options from really expensive to just enough that most of us can live with. So buy a diesel and auto of your choice and I stress your choice, because in my opinion all Ford, Chevy, and Dodge make super tow vehichles, It just depends on your personal preference, I mean I don't think you will go wrong with any of them, and if something was to happened then that is what the warranty is for. With that said, then pick the truck of your choice and to save money you might want to opt for a less plush interior. You might consider getting a auto with grade braking functions like the new torqshift 5 speed automatic from Ford, or the Allison 5 speed auto from Chevrolet, and I think that I have heard that starting this 05 model year that the Dodge's 4 speed as got true tow haul mode capabilitys, which should give you grade braking. I Know the Dodges have had the tow haul button on the auto for a couple of years now, but I don't think they have been a true tow haul type tranny till this 05 year, although they are still 4 speed as of the 05 model year,- (all of this Dodge info is just to the best of my understanding, so I may be wrong about the Dodge automatics, so if I am please forgive me)))).... With a good grade braking transmission, I don't think you need any kind of aftermarket engine brake, especially if you are a safe minded driver.

Posted By: eileeneh on 11/24/04 09:39pm

I Know the Dodges have had the tow haul button on the auto for a couple of years now, but I don't think they have been a true tow haul type tranny till this 05 year

4wheelingNUTT, what is a true tow haul type tranny? I've never heard of this.

Thanks, Eileen

Posted By: 4wheelingNUT!! on 11/24/04 10:43pm

Sure Eileeneh, it is a automatic transmission that has a special feature called tow haul, and this feature is used for the times when you pull a trailer, and in return it allows your engine and transmission to work smoothly together so you don't have to use your service brakes as much. One special feature that I know Ford and Chevy has is there trannys have grade braking features that actually downshift the tranny at the right moments to keep you from having to use your brake pedal as much, it allows the tranny and motor to work together to slow the vehichle so you can stay more relaxed and focused on your surroundings, remember Ford and Chevy both have 5 speed autos so the shifting is extremely smooth and at times without notice. The gearshift will have a little button on the tip of it that says tow haul, and especially when you are towing in hilly type country you need to push the button and it puts your tranny in the that special mode so that you physically do not have to work as hard, and you can enjoy your drive more. You don't have to use it all the time if you don't want to, it is just there to make your life easier, one more thing to remember is that these transmissions are what the market calls smart transmissions, because they actually learn your driving habits and can adjust there functionality to the size of load that you are towing or not towing so they can work more effeciently. These 5 speed smart autos are availalble in Ford and Chevy/Gmc only at the current, not to take anything away from the Dodge because their 4 speed auto is also a very capable tranny as well, they are on the verge of coming out with a more advanced tranny sometime soon according to all the rumors floating around, time will tell. It is a very exciting time for this market, I can not beleive how far the advancements of todays heavy pickups have came since even the early 90's. The Fords new 5 speed is called Torqshift, and the Chevys/Gmc 5 speed auto is called Allison. I don't think you will go wrong with any choice including Dodge, but remember Dodge has a warranty issue if you put a engine brake or pac brake aftermarket system on their trucks, and with the Ford and Chevy the tranny does such a wonderful job slowing the vehicle that I don't think a engine brake would even be necessary. I don't think Ford likes the idea of a engine brake on their trucks anyway. So good luck and Happy Thanksgiving. If you have anymore questions feel free to send me a personal message or post here and I will do my best to help you, I am by no-way a expert or try to be, but I will gather facts and try to help you the best that I can......Stuart

* This post was last edited 11/24/04 11:04pm by 4wheelingNUT!! *

Posted By: Veebyes on 11/25/04 06:21am

I have pretty well gone through the whole thread. Not knowing much about automatics, never owned one in over 30 years, is there a problem in manually downshifting, provided one is doing a speed that suits the gear you want it to drop to, for going down long grades to reduce riding the brakes & getting fade?

We rented a 30'C class 2 years ago, F450 truck, & did a Denver-Vegas-Denver trip which ran over just about every mountain pass we could find including places like Loveland Pass & Rocky Mtn Nat Pk. I often shifted down fore the long grades, sometimes to 2nd, to ease up on the brakes. I know you can't hurt rentals but seriously can the same be done with the diesel autos without long term damage or accelerated wear & tear?

Posted By: 4wheelingNUT!! on 11/25/04 07:09am

Sure Veebyes you can, but with the new smart Torqshift, and Allison autos with the tow-haul mode featuring grade braking capabilities you really don't have to. These are extremely smart trannys that actually learn or adapt to any situation that is thrown at them, and with the tow-haul mode engaged you can do your job of driving with out all the extra stress of trying to guess what gear you need to be in, the new trannys will do all the work for you.

Posted By: davelinde on 11/25/04 09:29am

A limited slip differential provides improved traction all the time. I thought I wouldn't need it since I was getting 4WD. I learned that you can only use 4WD when you CAN slip the wheels a little, eg grass, mud, gravel, ice, snow. On pavement, if you go around a corner in 4WD the driveshafts bind up (front and rear axles are locked together) and at some point a wheel must slip - the truck will kind of hop. Not good for control and not good for the drive line components. LSD is for traction when 4WD is off.

I didn't understand all that with my first 4wd, so I don't have the lsd. It's not bad, but I'd re-think it if I had it to do over.

Posted By: cwsoules on 11/25/04 11:05am

I added an exhaust brake to my Dodge and like it. When I did I had my transmission upgraded with an aftermarket system made by Diesel Transmission Technology. It beefed up my automatic transmission and added a smart box which allows me to change the set points where the transmission will shift up and down and will keep it locked up when going down hill with the exhaust brake on. I would not go back. If Dodge starts to offer an Allison transmission I might get a new truck and add an exhaust brake. Look at dieseltrans.com for more info and even better call them and ask to speak to the owner Bill K.

Adding an exhaust brake will not "void your transmission warranty". It will allow the dealer and Dodge a way to avoid paying for repairs to the tranny if they can "blame the failure" on the exhaust brake. Practically speaking if you have an exhaust brake and a tranny failure within the warranty period you may have a battle to get coverage depending upon your dealer. It might even force you to hire a lawyer to fight them. For me I decided the benifit of an exhaust brake made a potential problem with a possible transmission repair was worth the risk.

USN RET. 2001 Diesel Dodge Quad Cab 2500 Auto w/4:10 rear end. Miller Mfg Truck Bed Cover, with RBW hitch, and a 1995 29' Automate 5th wheel with one slide

Posted By: trainbuf0 on 11/25/04 01:21pm

To prevent auto tranny overheat problems when using an exhaust brake I would suggest a transmission lock-up device, such as offered by BD or Banks. I have been using this device on my 98 Dodge RAM 2500 with good success.

Good Luck, Don

Don
98 Jayco Eagle, 98 Cummins w/exhaust brake & tranny lock

Posted By: Dick&Sue on 11/25/04 05:53pm

I haven`t driven an exhaust brake on an RV but have on tour busses. Its the only way to go. Many hills need no service braking or down shifting. This means your brakes will last much longer. As mentioned by others, exhaust braking is very relaxing.

Someone mentioned that 4x4 drive will lock up the drivetrain. ONLY if you have locked out the third differential. Limited slip can be good if you are in a lot of sand or mud. Can be a real problem on ice or packed snow.

If you need 4x4 and/or limitted slip, you shouldn`t be towing.

`84 Rockwood, class C, 28 ft, 3500 Chev, 350, auto

Posted By: fppf on 11/25/04 06:13pm

Quote:

If you need 4x4 and/or limitted slip, you shouldn`t be towing


LOL, tell that to a tow truck driver.

Posted By: davelinde on 11/25/04 07:28pm

Not all 4wd is full time, with 3 differentials. On a Dodge your only choice is to lock it up.

Posted By: SatchMax on 11/25/04 09:55pm

The allision transmission in the GM 2500 and 3500 are great transmissions. With the duramax engine and allision transmission you can handle any kind of hill or grade with no problem. The allision has a tow haul mode for going down grades that will down shift for you so you are not on your brakes all the time. I have a 01 crewcab dually with the duramax and the allision with 65000 miles and not one problem with either. If you want a auto transmission, take a good look at the GM line.
SatchMax
Lubbock, Texas

Posted By: eileeneh on 11/25/04 10:19pm

Thanks, SatchMax. That seems to be what most people are saying. My worst travel experience comes from Lubbock, Texas. I was at Carlsbad Caverns and decided I would drive as far as Lubbock, spend the night, and continue on to near OK City the next day. I got into Lubbock probably around 7 or so and it was graduation week-end. I could not find a single place to stay except dumps that were $50 or more. I looked for 2 hours. I decided to sleep in the car but I couldn't sleep. I finally realized that unless I left and started driving, I'd have to be there the next day because I would be too tired to drive. So at 1 am I set out driving alone in the pitch black night across Texas on a little highway. It was just horrible and I arrived at Shawnee Mission, OK early the next am with my eyes barely open. Having an RV would have been great!

Eileen

Posted By: eileeneh on 11/25/04 10:20pm

Thanks, SatchMax. That seems to be what most people are saying. My worst travel experience comes from Lubbock, Texas. I was at Carlsbad Caverns and decided I would drive as far as Lubbock, spend the night, and continue on to near OK City the next day. I got into Lubbock probably around 7 or so and it was graduation week-end. I could not find a single place to stay except dumps that were $50 or more. I looked for 2 hours. I decided to sleep in the car but I couldn't sleep. I finally realized that unless I left and started driving, I'd have to be there the next day because I would be too tired to drive. So at 1 am I set out driving alone in the pitch black night across Texas on a little highway. It was just horrible and I arrived at Shawnee Mission, OK early the next am with my eyes barely open. Having an RV would have been great!

Eileen

Posted By: davelinde on 11/26/04 12:28pm

I'm curious since I've seen several comments to the effect that Ford and Chevy transmissions automatically hold speed by downshifting going down hill. I know my friend's GMC gasser does that, but a few have implied that the diesels work that way too. Ford and Chevy include an exhaust brake as standard equipment on the diesel?

Posted By: gfs1943 on 11/26/04 12:42pm

Quote:

I'm curious since I've seen several comments to the effect that Ford and Chevy transmissions automatically hold speed by downshifting going down hill. I know my friend's GMC gasser does that, but a few have implied that the diesels work that way too. Ford and Chevy include an exhaust brake as standard equipment on the diesel?


No exhaust brake on the Fords, and I don't think they are standard on GM either. But the GM Allison transmission, and the Fort Torqshift (2003 & later), in the tow/haul mode, automatically downshift allowing you to use engine braking to help slow the vehicle.

gfs1943
USAF, Retired (1962 - 1983)
'00 Itasca Horizon 36LD
Cat Diesel Power


Posted By: davelinde on 11/26/04 01:48pm

...ok, so on the gas applications tow/haul the Ford/Chevy will downshift and use the engine to help braking. got it.
But on diesel application there IS no engine braking unless there's an exhaust brake. At least that's how I understood it. One of those differences (aside from no spark plug) between gas and diesel basic operation.

Posted By: fppf on 11/26/04 02:02pm

There is an ok amount due to friction.
But the addition of an Exhaust brake will make it stronger.

You should feel the full engine brake on my truck.

Posted By: fppf on 11/26/04 03:42pm

Actually compression raito has nothing to due with grade braking.
This because the energy taken to compress the air is almost totaly returned to the motor.

Grade braking is mainly caused by air restrictions and friction.

Diesels don't have as much grade braking because there is no throtle plate. The air is free to move through the motor. Thats where the exhaust brake comes in. It restricts the flow of air through the motor. Just like a throtle plate but on the exhaust.

Posted By: gfs1943 on 11/26/04 04:49pm

Do a search on "diesel" +"engine braking" and read some of the numerous links you will find. Because the diesel has no throttle plate, it continues to take in a large amount of air, even with the accelerator at idle. The compression is what gives the braking effect.

Posted By: fppf on 11/26/04 06:23pm

Not unless you have an engine brake it wont.

All the energy put into compressing the air is given right back to the engine on the down stroke.

An engine brake works by opening the exhaust valve when the piston is close to TDC. This removes the engery the engine took to compress the air so it WONT go back into the drive train.

Check out http://www.jakebrake.com

Posted By: donthebrewer on 11/29/04 10:01pm

On the Ford 6.0 diesels, the tow haul mode also closes down the variable vanes on the turbocharger which makes it act similar to an exhaust brake. The combo works quite well. I came down from Powderhorn (started at the top of the hill at 25 mph) and never had to hit the brake once. The torqueshift and turbo vanes did a great job of keeping my speed down. GCVW of 15k.

Posted By: SoCalDesertRider on 11/27/04 11:15am

Part of the confusion here might be because we're talking about 'engine brakes' and 'exhaust brakes' and those are actually 2 different things. Yes, they ultimately accomplish the same thing, but in different ways. The engine brake FPPF did a fine job explaining how the engine brake works, so no need to go there again. An exhaust brake is a seperate valve outside the engine in the exhaust pipe that restricts the flow of exhaust gasses out of the motor.

Engine and exhaust brakes aside, on the transmission braking issue, I don't see what the big fuss is over 'tow-haul' mode in an automatic. I have had automatics in most of my full-size trucks and when I want to increase braking and control speed going downhill with the engine and gears, I just reach up and pull the trans shifter down a gear and I have all the braking I need to maintain speed downhill without riding the brakes. I don't see where having a trans that does this for me automatically is a necessary thing to have. I imagine it's a nice feature, but my right hand is not dysfunctional and pulling the lever down myself is not a problem.

I prefer to control the transmission myself anyways when climbing or descending a steep grade with a load. On some autos, manually shifting the gears engages an additional set of clutches which makes the trans stronger.

My old trucks with 3-speed auto trannys (C6, TH350, TH400, and Torqflite 727) don't have lock-up converters and provide plenty of engine braking, and more so with low ratio gears in the axles of most of my trucks.

In our van and Taurus with 4-speed OD autos, I lock out overdrive on the hills to keep their speed from getting out of control. Have been doing this for years without any problems.

05E350 6.0PSD
97F350DRW 7.3PSD 4x4 4.10 11' flatbed
98Ranger
69Bronco ATC250R CR500
20' BigTex flatbed carhauler
Callen Camper

92F350 CrewCab 4x4 351/C6
B&W TurnoverBall, Curt Magnum V
HD Springs Bilsteins,
285/75-16E BFG AT on 16x8 Stocktons
4.56's & LockRite rear

Posted By: SoCalDesertRider on 11/27/04 11:39am

About limited slip differentials:

The limited slip differential goes in the axle. It can go in either the front or rear axle, or both, but currently most trucks are only available from the factory with one in the rear. If you want one in the front, they can be purchased aftermarket. They can be and are used in 2wd and 4wd trucks alike and they work regarless of if a 4wd truck is in 4x4 mode or 2wd mode. The one has nothing to do with the other.

Most typical limited slips, like those used in Ford and Dana axles, have 2 sets of clutch packs inside the differential case that 'lock' the axleshafts together under equal or near-equal traction situations. As the difference in traction between the left and right tires increases, there arises a difference in torque between the axleshafts and at this point, the clutches begin to lose their grip and start slipping. Once they lose their grip, one wheel begins to spin and traction is lost. At that point, the limited slip diff operates like a standard open diff untill the torque difference is equalized and the clutches can regain their grip.

Some limited slips work better than others and as time goes by, the clutches wear and lose their holding power. They are very mild in operation and most of the time you won't even know it's in the axle untill you need it on soft terrain. There are no adverse effects to using one on the highway or having one in a truck that is used for towing either.

The limited slip differential does help traction in most offroad terrain, like mud, snow, sand, dirt and gravel. I have one in each axle of the Bronco and they definitely are a good thing to have. Much better than two open diffs . I have a locker in the F350 that works much better than a limited slip, but that's for another discussion...

If you plan on getting off into the dirt or driving in mud or snow, it is a good idea to get the limited slip option on the truck when you buy it, as adding one later costs alot more, sometimes as much as 3-4 times more than the option cost at time of purchase. If you get a 4wd truck and intend to use the 4wd, you should get the limited slip too, otherwise the 4wd is not as effective as it could be offroad. 2wd trucks are especially helped by a limited slip since there is no option of getting traction from the front tires.

* This post was edited 11/28/04 10:09am by SoCalDesertRider *

Posted By: SatchMax on 11/26/04 02:39pm

In the tow haul mode going down a steep grade the duramax will wind up over 4000 rpms and it it will scare the heck out of You the first time it does it, but it works great. I have not seen a exhaust brake standard on the GM products. Don't know about the ford transmission, but the allision is great in the 2500 and 3500 GM trucks.
SatchMax
Lubbock, Texas

Posted By: gfs1943 on 11/26/04 02:44pm

Due to the high compression ratio of a Diesel engine, it has very good engine braking. The modern transmissions keep the engine tied to the drive train, instead of letting the truck "free-wheel" down a hill.

Posted By: RedRam on 11/30/04 07:18am

In regards to the dodge 48RE dodge engineers and cummins have been working together on this,as i understand they are almost ready (to my understanding)to approve the auto for the exhaust brake,the early 04's have the needed parts but it seems to be a software problem.I have heard they have the brake on a truck and testing has been going on a regular basis but i can downshift to a lower gear if i need the extra braking for now but no,i havn't been down mountain roads yet and i decided to go auto over manual for a few reasons but i'm happy with mine so far.

04 Dodge CTD
08 Bighorn 3370
04 Keystone Springdale 245 RL


Posted By: rosco on 11/30/04 08:51am

Donthebrewer, good response...But I would like to get the real skinny.. does anyone know for sure if the " 2005 F350 DRW automatic " has whatever is needed build in to handle a 15,000 lbs 5th wheel in the mountains?? thanks and have a great day ..

Rosco
2006 F350 Lariat 4X4 DRW 4:10
2006 Jayco 36RLTS
Reese 18K Signature series
Garmin 2720 GPS


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