I've been like a kid in a candy store reading about the factory visits this week! I've been too busy or tired to post comments up until now, though.
jcluff wrote: One last thing....these puppies are expensive $$$$$ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm curious, 'jcluff', hadn't you seen the Outfitter price list before? As a class, I find pop-up campers relatively cheap (campers in general and the beefy vehicles that move them, are _not_ cheap). Having priced-out other pop-ups (don't forget to add the cost of the options which are standard on Outfitter campers), I found Outfitter to be no different than the rest.
If it wasn't for the pop-up class, we wouldn't be getting an RV -- period. It just didn't make economic sense for us otherwise. I would hate to scare-off other potential pop-up owners strictly based on notions of a little bit higher price. You can buy a basic Outfitter for not much more than the price of a basic Lance and I'll bet you get more for your money with the Outfitter. It's all relative.
Last Spring when I was daydreaming about truck campers, I stumbled on Alaskan (which I had known about for years) and that gave me the idea that pop-ups in general might be a less expensive way to go. I looked around for other pop-ups and as I figured out how much they would cost (in general; as a class) I put that notion (and the idea of getting a pop-up) out of my head! I considered the pop-up to be inferior to the hard-wall truck camper (in the first place) and certainly light-weight economy-priced hard-walls (like Six-Pac) could be had for _less_ money.
This Summer, as we got to talking with pop-up owners on the road, my perception changed. I stopped thinking about the gusset of the pop-up as a 'tent' feature and started to think in terms of what the whole package could do for me (discrete low profile; won't gouge out new channels in tunnels; won't tear-out building overhangs; lighter weight; could squeeze it into the garage saving me tens of thousands in storage costs; etc.). Sure the the pop-up class is a little more expensive than the cheapest hard-walls but pop-ups (that work) are _more_ complicated. One thing I discovered this Summer is that, among all the people that we talked to with pop-ups who bought used, I realized that they had _all_ paid more than half of what the campers _originally_ cost (in a period of relatively low inflation!). I think of campers as a wasting asset so this really surprised me and was a big factor in our decision. One guy's (bought used) pop-up was 17 years old (the equipment was a little balky but he loved it)!!! With reasonable care, I think your Outfitter is going to cost you a _lot_ less in the long run than you _think_ it will.
Especially with the threat of gas prices tending to keep larger RVs in the driveway, either we pop-up owners are going to have more of the wilderness to ourselves, or folks are going to be clamoring to buy our used pop-ups (eventually). I think the future only looks bright for pop-up owners.
I don't believe that I'm an apologist for Outfitter -- I want to get to the truth about Outfitter whether it be 'pretty' or 'ugly'. I think Outfitter designs-in better quality and more features than its competition but whether they achieve that is still up for debate (hard to quantify such a notion). I think that Outfitter pricing is _fair_ and _competitive_. I've looked up the street prices of optional components and I've found the markups to be quite reasonable when you consider that Outfitter has to install the stuff or make a storage compartment for the portable stuff. The only thing I can't reconcile is the battery isolator that they have been selling (ie. the one that 'Silversand' has). I'm either missing something there or they are overcharging for what should be about a $20 solenoid (...but, according to factory reports, it seems maybe this is behind Outfitter, anyway!!!).
We could buy a small-cheap clearance priced Lance or a Six-Pac for maybe $5,000 US _less_ than what _our_ Outfitter is going to cost (because of all the options on our Outfitter), but those other campers would be inferior to me (now!) -- when I consider how tricked-out my Outfitter is going to be and what it is going to do for me. And if you like to pour on the options, what hardwall-camper builder is going to build you a camper as tricked-out as, say, 'Steve_in_29's for _less_ money???
I would be the first to say to anyone that if the pop-up class doesn't do anything for you, then consider an economy priced hard-wall. As long as a pop-up satisfies otherwise unachievable criteria, I don't think you can go wrong (and I've been running the numbers for six months!!!). Outfitter, in particular, still looks like an 'ace' bet to me.
Testudo & Princesse Caribou
2012 FORD F-250 6.2L 4x4 EC SB SRW
2006 FORD F-250 5.4L manual trans (Sniff! Gone but not forgotten!)
2006 OUTFITTER SUPER-Caribou 6.5
[quote=Steve_in_29]Tell me about it. But my only regret is that I didn't go with a long bed truck so that I could have gotten the 9.5
[/quote]
I was playing with the square footage of the Outfitter models -- basically comparing the Caribou 6.5 to the size of tent that we normally use. When you take the square footage of the camper (including bed) and subtract out the square footage of the bathroom, I noticed that the size of the Apex 9.5 is spot-on with that of the Caribou 8 and that the Apex 8 is the same as the Caribou 6.5. Keep in mind that I was comparing tent space to _similar-use_ Outfitter space (I was _not_ making a value judgment about the bathroom in the Apex).
Probably nobody cares but, there you have it [shrug].
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[quote=Steve_in_29]What were your "special request"? What kind of "new" ideas did you come up with?[/quote]
Yeah! Come on 'jcluff' -- don't be a tease [laughing]!!!
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[quote=jcluff]-They may have switched to a different kind of Isolator and it is now standard, no extra charge.
- They have switched to a new type of converter that includes a 60 or 90 Amp three stage charger. This is also standard.[/quote]
This is all highly interesting news. Outfitter doesn't stand still, though. I can't wait to get more details (we go to Outfitter around December 1st). Start developing your lists of questions to send email to me!!!
[quote=jcluff]...(I'm basing this on memory of my conversation so be sure to confirm any of this with Outfitter as I'm not sure if it's "official" or my memory may be in error)...[/quote]
I gotta remember to take the Sony IC Recorder so I don't miss any details in the conversation! (It's the altitude!) Get the kid all dopey with high altitude and throw a slick camper into the mix and he'll 'remember' anything [grin!].
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[quote=blindhog]...I placed an order for an Apex 8 with A/C, Honda gen, 8' awning, dual 6-volt batteries (T125), electric jacks, extended cabover, Tundra refer and expandable rear steps...[/quote]
You should go _far_ in that!!! Congratulations! I hope to at least follow in your footsteps.
[quote=blindhog]Delivery is scheduled for early Dec...[/quote]
I guess I will get to inspect _your_ camper before _you_ do! Maybe I should hide a note in a drawer??? "TESTUDO WAS HERE -- FEAR THE TURTLE!". Tell you what, ...I'll leave you a little something in the bathroom (...just kidding!!!) [grin!].
[quote=blindhog]Hopefully the weather will cooperate and we will drive up to Colorado and pick up the camper and go for a shakedown cruise in the Rockies before heading home.[/quote]
Heck, the weather is better in Denver right now than it is in Washington, D.C. The satellite images already show snow pack in the elevations, though. Odds are that if you go into the Rockies in December, we won't hear from you again until (at least) Summer!
EDIT: Fix quotes.
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* This post was
edited 11/02/05 02:10pm by Testudo *
Regarding the price. Yes, I've been researching along time and I knew their prices. I believe they charge quite a premimum for their product, but it appears to be high quality, and custom made for each order. They have a small shop so I imagine they get to know the intimate details of each camper by the time it leaves on the customer's truck.
Outfitter does offer a lot of stuff as standard which the competition offers as an option, so that somewhat explains the high price. Most quoteable prices from other makes are generally MSRP, so the actual price is somewhat depedant upon area, dealer, timing, and negotiation skills. My Outfitter speced out to almost $25K not including the generator or my solar set up. So yea, I don't care how you slice it, this is an expensive camper. The fact that it has a soft wall, is only 7 feet wide and has small holding tanks only makes that seem more expensive. However, like I said, I firmly believe there is a lot more quality time, work, and materials put into this camper than most others. Then again, I could probably get a fully loaded Arctic Fox with full wall slide out and large LP and holding tank capacities for less than this outfitter. Yes, it's a different animal but still, something to think about.
If anyone knows how to wrangle a discount out of these guys, please share......! Steve?
Re the water pump, I just wanted to swap whatever their standard water pump is for one of the better, supposedly more quiet, higher-flow variable speed models. I'd like the shower and exterior sprayer to have a little more umph if you know what I mean. With the 22 gallon extra tank option, I'll have 60 gallons of fresh water on board so I'm not worried about a little higher flow rate. Can you imagine that? 60 GALLONS of insulated fresh water in a pop up!!!
Brian also mentioned the option of getting a certain kind of on-demand water heater that instantly heats it as you are drawing it. It's pricey but you don't have to keep 6 gallons hot all day and if you have a water hook up, you could practically have unlimited shower if you wanted (subject to LP supply of course).
"When the time for decision has arrived, the time for preparation has passed."
jcluff wrote: My Outfitter speced out to almost $25K not including the generator or my solar set up. So yea, I don't care how you slice it, this is an expensive camper.
Wow!!! _Not_ including the generator or solar set up!!! Is your camper gold plated?!?!? ...But I think it is important to point out that your Outfitter isn't typical (I hope!). In fact, I'd venture to say that there are few campers (hardwalled or otherwise) that have the capabilities of _your_ camper when it is all said and done.
In comparison, we are currently looking at about $16,900 in purchases from Outfitter for our Caribou (before a modest few undocumented customizations). That includes personal property like a generator and truck modifications such as tie-downs.
I have to point out that Outfitter sells a very capable camper right out of the box. It doesn't have to have options and customizations piled on to make it special among pop-ups.
jcluff wrote: Most quoteable prices from other makes are generally MSRP, so the actual price is somewhat dependant upon area, dealer, timing, and negotiation skills.
But, except for one or two _pop-up_ manufacturers, it's hardly worth talking about 'dealer networks'. If there is no 'dealer' there is no dealer markup to negotiate away in the first place.
Given the pop-ups that we configured and priced out, the price that we are looking at currently for our Outfitter is in the middle of the pack (and the Outfitter will be a _better_ camper).
jcluff wrote: The fact that it has a soft wall...
'Partial' soft wall! I've been a tent camper for forty years so I think too much is made of the 'softwall' argument. I'll admit that when I first priced out a pop-up last Spring, I had the same reaction (...it's got a 'tent' in it and for that price!) but if all the horror stories that people dream up about 'softwalls' were true, I'd be dead forty times over! The latest I've heard is that somebody is afraid to sleep in a pop-up because someone might climb up to the softwall and attack them. I mean, do they realize how high the hardwall is on pop-ups?!?!? If it was me 'breaking in', the last thing I would do is climb up on top the camper to slash and hack my way inside the gusset. I'd just kick down the door!!! -- The same way I would break and enter any hardwall camper!!!
_RVers_ pretend to camp: I read a post where somebody was describing pop-ups to a newbie and they said, "It's like camping..."
(I think _that_ says it all!!! [grin!])
jcluff wrote: ...is only 7 feet wide...
The hauling equipment has gotten so huge as the truck campers themselves have grown. Most of the combinations strike me as not being as road worthy as the truck the Beverley Hillbillies operated! I'm _happy_ about the prospect of carrying a load that is manageable and that I won't need telescoping side mirrors to see around!!!
jcluff wrote: ...and has small holding tanks...
I look at our camper as primarily a 30 night expedition vehicle. Our 'weekend' camping will be incidental to that. Taking into consideration our long stretches of use, _all_ RVs have small supply and holding tanks! This past Summer, I noticed that even class A owners seemed to spend a great deal of time dealing with plumbing and dumping issues. That's the initial reason we didn't get the APEX -- I didn't want to 'work' while vacationing. We'll have the outside shower and a chem toilet for primitive sites but plumbing fixtures aren't going to stink-up our camper or take up any appreciable room. Best of all, I don't have to worry about the sewage side of the equation very much.
I'll grant you that it is easier to find potable water than it is to dump holding tanks but it's not just Outfitter -- at 8.5 pounds per gallon, water and sewage quickly overcomes any tow/haul vehicle's capacity to schlep it around [shrug].
I just hope that RVers aren't dealing with it by dumping it in streams or by the side of the road!!!
jcluff wrote: Re the water pump, I just wanted to swap whatever their standard water pump is for one of the better, supposedly more quiet, higher-flow variable speed models. I'd like the shower and exterior sprayer to have a little more umph if you know what I mean. With the 22 gallon extra tank option, I'll have 60 gallons of fresh water on board so I'm not worried about a little higher flow rate. Can you imagine that? 60 GALLONS of insulated fresh water in a pop up!!!
Well, actually they use a 2.8 GPM pump (1 GPM on sink only models) and I think that's probably fine (you have to consider the water pressure that is developed). Steve indicated that the shower pressure was 'satisfying' (maybe not his exact word but he seemed to agree it was 'okay') [grin!]. One thing I'm going to question when I go there is if they lay out the plumbing system to SHURFLO's guidelines, ie. an expansion tank, check valves, etc. A lot of irritating plumbing emanations can be cured by just designing it right in the first place. Good shower pressure is important to me too but 2.8 GPM _should_ do it. I'll be interested to learn of your field experience with your upgraded water pump, however.
jcluff wrote: Brian also mentioned the option of getting a certain kind of on-demand water heater that instantly heats it as you are drawing it. It's pricey but you don't have to keep 6 gallons hot all day and if you have a water hook up, you could practically have unlimited shower if you wanted (subject to LP supply of course).
I was reading about just such a model the other day -- aimed at class A's. But, on a small camper, I'm happy to plan my hot water usage [shrug]. We'll spend a little more and get the dual fuel model to 'goose' the hot water production.
Testudo wrote: Wow!!! _Not_ including the generator or solar set up!!! Is your camper gold plated?!?!? ...But I think it is important to point out that your Outfitter isn't typical (I hope!). In fact, I'd venture to say that there are few campers (hardwalled or otherwise) that have the capabilities of _your_ camper when it is all said and done.
LOL. I wish it had some gold in it. It's amazing how fast things add up. Actually, the list of options I came up with at Outfitter are pretty standard. It does include almost all of their standard options for the Apex 9.5. The most expensive is the airbags with on board compressor at $895. Actually, I'm hoping my solar will come in around $1,200 so I guess that would be the most expensive, but that isn't included yet in the price. Other pricey options are both awnings, the extended cabover, the air conditioner. All the other options are just the standard stuff like oven, TV antenna (roadstar 2000), rack and ladder, generator slide, AC heat strip, microwave/inverter, hide a bed. The only "custom" things are the Tundra fridge, three extra outlets, black tank rinse, extra 22 gallon fresh water tank, and T-145s.
It adds up so fast that it is downright scary.
Other options I'm considering but aren't in the price are:
-electric probe for water heater
-Sensa Tank sensors
-Euro-style thermal windows
-water filter system
Based on their retail pricing, the total package could be close to $28k which unless they are willing to discount SOMETHING, it may be a deal breaker. That's a bit over my budget but rather than give up any of these options, I may simply choose a different camper.
FYI: I visited Hallmark and they showed me a LOADED 9.5 brand new and gave me an out the door price of $21k. I'm still thinking about it. It had everything including two awnings, AC, etc. Only missing the solar. It's not an outfitter but it was VERY nice and it's at least 5 to 6k cheaper.
