covetsthesun wrote: I've been on the market since February and just recently turned the listing over to a professional team in my office. Being a realtor... and a seller... I understand the pain from both sides of the fence. I'm losing money...pure and simple. And not just a few thousand. Many, many thousands. I will be lucky in comparison to some others I know of...I won't be bringing $40,000 to the closing table or more. Assuming I eventually GET a contract and to the closing table!!!
To the poster who "laughs with glee"... I had to cringe because there are a lot of people who have been badly damaged through no fault of their own. It isn't pretty and is certainly not laughable. Even some very wealthy people were brutally hurt by financial losses. DH met a very elderly woman who was working at a front desk somewhere. He joked with her about working at her age and she said "Bernie Madoff". She was losing her home. The people who might actually deserve scorn are not the ones being hurt. Wall Street is doing fine... it's Main Street that still suffers. I do not feel any glee toward anyone's misfortune. And...BTW...I did NOT participate in all the banking programs that landed so many in misery. I refused to drink that koolaid.
That being said... the market is what it is. Price means everything these days. I continue to be amazed as the housing market goes through its' contortions. It is fine to talk to your banker about value...but be aware that new laws took effect this summer and bankers can't talk to or use their favorite appraisers now. Verboten. That's why appraisals have started to get nuts. You are more likely to get an appraiser who's from an "appraisal farm" and doesn't know your area from a hole in the ground. And...they may only be a "note taker" and take info back to the "real" appraiser who never sees your home. My home is now below 2005 values. I will be grateful to be out from under the expense of owning it and very happy to be able to just move on with life. The poster who said we lose sight of our most precious asset...our time and life... is spot on. I don't want to waste any more heartbeats.
Too all who have sold their homes and are at last free...Much Joy to you and CONGRATULATIONS!!!! To those still waiting... crunch your numbers and decide what it is that's truly important to you and then have a very serious discussion with your realtor. Don't wait around. Finally...take a deep breath and keep moving on. Good luck.
cts
"I had to cringe because there are a lot of people who have been badly damaged through no fault of their own."
No fault of their own? The fact that they believed the lie that their house was somehow magically worth 200%-300% more than it really is? Look.... housing prices don't double and triple EVER. Housing prices were flatter than a pancake from 1890-1999 and all of a sudden they triple and people think it's real???? I have no sympathy for people who think a primary residence is somehow an "investment" and are somehow "owed" a grossly inflated amount for something everyone knows deep down isn't worth a fraction of the fantasy asking price.
Housing prices have a long long way to fall and it as a "realtor", you should step up to the ethics your organization claims to hold high and tell the public the truth about this. You know it, I know it.
Covetthesun: Thanks for the info explaining the changes in the appraisal process. My realtor had explained it to me also. Are these requirements for appraisers throughout the nation or just MO? My realtor also said that the appraisal is good for six months and that appraisers are nervous because of these new guidelines so appraisals are coming out very low. While I understand that the over appraisal of properties is part of the problem in the downfall of the economy, under appraising is not going to get the economy back on it's feet. When your house has to be comped to short sales and foreclosures a true appraisal IMHO isn't possible.
Paul and Karen
New to us 93 Pace Arrow
01 Tracker Toad
Kbix wrote: Covetthesun: Thanks for the info explaining the changes in the appraisal process. My realtor had explained it to me also. Are these requirements for appraisers throughout the nation or just MO? My realtor also said that the appraisal is good for six months and that appraisers are nervous because of these new guidelines so appraisals are coming out very low. While I understand that the over appraisal of properties is part of the problem in the downfall of the economy, under appraising is not going to get the economy back on it's feet. When your house has to be comped to short sales and foreclosures a true appraisal IMHO isn't possible.
The new appraisal rules are called HVCC. The realtor industrial complex lobbied hard and offered bribes to deep six HVCC.
The reality is that short sales and foreclosures ARE real, factual comps. Foreclosure transactions and short sales are considered arms length transactions and reflect the real value of housing, not the grossly inflated happy land prices used house salesmen would have you believe.
Think of it this way..... When I can build for $50/sqft and make money, what makes one think that a resale house is worth more than a fraction of that number?
Keep in mind it was the grossly inflated housing prices of 2000-2006 that put us in the mess we're in right now. High housing prices aren't good for anyone and I think people are beginning to come to grips with this fact. Essentially, we had a housing finance system that ran like a swiss watch for 50 years. Prices were flat, affordable and do-able for nearly everyone. Once the commercial banks were allowed to lend in 1999, the entire housing finance system came apart.
* This post was
edited 10/22/09 07:04pm by Turd Herder *
covetsthesun wrote: I've been on the market since February and just recently turned the listing over to a professional team in my office. Being a realtor... and a seller... I understand the pain from both sides of the fence. I'm losing money...pure and simple. And not just a few thousand. Many, many thousands. I will be lucky in comparison to some others I know of...I won't be bringing $40,000 to the closing table or more. Assuming I eventually GET a contract and to the closing table!!!
To the poster who "laughs with glee"... I had to cringe because there are a lot of people who have been badly damaged through no fault of their own. It isn't pretty and is certainly not laughable. Even some very wealthy people were brutally hurt by financial losses. DH met a very elderly woman who was working at a front desk somewhere. He joked with her about working at her age and she said "Bernie Madoff". She was losing her home. The people who might actually deserve scorn are not the ones being hurt. Wall Street is doing fine... it's Main Street that still suffers. I do not feel any glee toward anyone's misfortune. And...BTW...I did NOT participate in all the banking programs that landed so many in misery. I refused to drink that koolaid.
That being said... the market is what it is. Price means everything these days. I continue to be amazed as the housing market goes through its' contortions. It is fine to talk to your banker about value...but be aware that new laws took effect this summer and bankers can't talk to or use their favorite appraisers now. Verboten. That's why appraisals have started to get nuts. You are more likely to get an appraiser who's from an "appraisal farm" and doesn't know your area from a hole in the ground. And...they may only be a "note taker" and take info back to the "real" appraiser who never sees your home. My home is now below 2005 values. I will be grateful to be out from under the expense of owning it and very happy to be able to just move on with life. The poster who said we lose sight of our most precious asset...our time and life... is spot on. I don't want to waste any more heartbeats.
Too all who have sold their homes and are at last free...Much Joy to you and CONGRATULATIONS!!!! To those still waiting... crunch your numbers and decide what it is that's truly important to you and then have a very serious discussion with your realtor. Don't wait around. Finally...take a deep breath and keep moving on. Good luck.
cts
"I had to cringe because there are a lot of people who have been badly damaged through no fault of their own."
No fault of their own? The fact that they believed the lie that their house was somehow magically worth 200%-300% more than it really is? Look.... housing prices don't double and triple EVER. Housing prices were flatter than a pancake from 1890-1999 and all of a sudden they triple and people think it's real???? I have no sympathy for people who think a primary residence is somehow an "investment" and are somehow "owed" a grossly inflated amount for something everyone knows deep down isn't worth a fraction of the fantasy asking price.
Housing prices have a long long way to fall and it as a "realtor", you should step up to the ethics your organization claims to hold high and tell the public the truth about this. You know it, I know it.
Wow. TH...I'm not sure where to start with you. You appear to have a tremendous amount of anger and frustration, and I have to wonder... were you or a loved one involved in a real estate transaction that went wrong? As for me stepping up to the ethics standards of the NAR, while those standards are high...I adhere to a higher level of ethics and accountability. I once had a broker tell me that I was too honest to ever make good money. That has proven to be true so I won't take offense from your words.
As for the current housing bubble/crash...many factors played into this. Some factors were well intentioned...making it easier for people to buy homes when in fact those people were not genuinely qualified to be able to keep making the payments. Buyers were encouraged to buy as much house as they could afford...even if it meant eating hotdogs everyday. I often said this was wrong...and indeed would prove to be harmful. But...as long as there was money to be made, people ran with it. It did me no good to explain to buyers that they should buy less house than what they qualified for. They went to other realtors who wouldn't "preach" to them.
Other factors...financial competitors had to come up with "new and improved" programs to attract buyers. Mortgages have to be backed up by investors who are willing to accept a certain amount of risk. Mortgage brokers make a percentage off the deals they put together. Everyone all up and down the real estate food chain has a piece of the pie. Appraisers, mortgage brokers, closers, title companies, surveyors, tax examiners, developers, builders and realtors. All of these fees and costs are annoying to buyers and sellers...especially sellers... but it's a cost of doing business and it keeps food on the table and the lights on for a lot of people. In addition to that...a lot of states have transfer fees... you get taxed on the size of your mortgage and taxed on the sale price the house. It's double taxation...but most people aren't aware of that and don't even question it. It wasn't just the "industrial realestate complex", but government involvement as well. As property values rose so did the tax base.
As for "the truth" that home prices have a lot lower to go... I do NOT know that. I don't have a crystal ball. I suspect that in certain areas of the country that may be the case... and that is a function of economic realities of the regions. That...has always been the enduring truth of real estate. If you have more demand for an area...the price goes up. If the demand falls...so does the price. In the current economic reality...demand is down. A lot of People have lost their jobs and those that do have jobs and money are cautious.
That being said... while there are people who bought homes betting on the increase...essentially gamblers... who are caught holding the bag...there are many more who did it the "old fashioned way". They worked, they saved, they put high down payments on their homes and paid their taxes. They lived in their homes a long time and kept them up. Then a medical problem got them, a job loss got them, a divorce or death got them. Or...an unscrupulous money manager cheated them. They were/are hardworking people who always believed that if they did right they would be done right by others.
Did some of them believe wrongly? Probably. Do they deserve to be laughed at? No. Again...the ones who deserve scorn and punishment are not feeling the pain. It's your neighbor down the street who's maxing out their last credit card (another industrial complex!!) to make ends meet. It's the neighbor whose 401k became a 201 or 101k because the trustee invested in the wrong place. It's the retiree who's had to go back to work because their retirement fund fell apart or their pensions have been trashed by corporate greed and "restructuring".
It's fine to be angry...heck...I AM REALLY ANGRY...about it. I warned about this kind of thing starting TEN years ago. But I won't take pleasure in the misery of others. As a realtor...I make my views known to the political action committees of all the organizations I belong to. I am also well aware of the widely held view that all realtors are money hungry shysters. All I can say to that is...are there bad apples? Yes...all institutions and organizations have them. We try to weed them out. If anyone has a complaint against a realtor...there are venues to be heard and you should pursue it.
As for the new appraisal laws...while these were well intentioned laws designed to protect the public...the implementation has proven to be problematic. Bankers can no longer choose or speak to an appraiser. Appraisal "farms" have sprung up..essentially clearing houses for appraisers. An order comes in and an appraiser is notified to go. I have heard so many horror stories... the wrong house got appraised and the appraiser says it wouldn't have made a difference anyway.... one appraiser says a house is worth 30k less than what one appraiser said a week ago or vice versa. Once again, good intentions did not work out the way it was supposed to.
I am certainly in favor of a fair... true arms length...contract and appraisal. I am in favor of getting rid of the greed and corruption wherever it is found. If a plan is put into place and it is found to be flawed...it needs to be abandoned or modified.
Things have changed...are changing. People have the responsibility to really read and understand what they are signing. If that means getting an attorney to review the contract...by all means do it. I've used attorney's in my own personal transactions...and I am familiar with the contracts!!
Well, pardon the long winded post. This is a profession I have long loved and enjoyed. It is with deep sorrow that I see so many wounded. That's why I say really crunch your numbers. Decide what is the most important to YOU. Don't waste your heartbeats...find the best way possible and move on to what's best for you.
cts
Kbix wrote: Covetthesun: Thanks for the info explaining the changes in the appraisal process. My realtor had explained it to me also. Are these requirements for appraisers throughout the nation or just MO? My realtor also said that the appraisal is good for six months and that appraisers are nervous because of these new guidelines so appraisals are coming out very low. While I understand that the over appraisal of properties is part of the problem in the downfall of the economy, under appraising is not going to get the economy back on it's feet. When your house has to be comped to short sales and foreclosures a true appraisal IMHO isn't possible.
In the truest sense...foreclosures, shortsales, etc are real market driven comps. An appraisal is driven by market forces, cost approach, or income derived. A typical residential appraisal is usually a market approach. Basically...a property is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it. And that's driven by other factors: location and demand. If demand for a property in a desirable location is high...the price goes up. The highest priced locations have been the most desirable places. And that is totally driven by the wants/needs of the buyers.
My residence (for sale) is near a lake north of KC. Harrisonville is near lakes as well. However...we are both far enough away from the city proper that people automatically assume we are going to be cheaper...and to some extent that's true. Add the cost to commute to the city (general metro area) and our buyer pool gets nervous. So... the demand for outlying properties is affected by gas prices. Add the job loss factors in...people lose their homes and go into foreclosure/shortsale and you've changed the picture.
In my area... a few builders went under and some very nice homes were sold below the cost to build them. I didn't like it...but it is a factor affecting the overall price of homes in my area. So...now my home is on the market for less than the cost to build it...way less. I know this because I've built a home and was my own GC...and I've renovated homes. I'm losing money...not happy about it... but DH has a job in another state and it is important to us to be able to get on with our lives.
Over appraising properties was a problem and I can understand why appraisers are really minding their p's and q's now. I know some very good appraisers...I didn't always like their opinions... but I respected their integrity. Unfortunately...we don't get to choose who we want. That can be both good and bad. The problems are another indicator of the current housing turmoil.
It sounds like your realtor did explain the situation to you. Believe me... no one is really happy about short sales and foreclosures being part of the comps...but they do portray a reality that has to be taken into account. A buyer will choose a less expensive option to a higher priced one...all things being equal. Everyone is looking for "the deal" or "the steal". It's the nature of the beast.
covetsthesun wrote: I've been on the market since February and just recently turned the listing over to a professional team in my office. Being a realtor... and a seller... I understand the pain from both sides of the fence. I'm losing money...pure and simple. And not just a few thousand. Many, many thousands. I will be lucky in comparison to some others I know of...I won't be bringing $40,000 to the closing table or more. Assuming I eventually GET a contract and to the closing table!!!
To the poster who "laughs with glee"... I had to cringe because there are a lot of people who have been badly damaged through no fault of their own. It isn't pretty and is certainly not laughable. Even some very wealthy people were brutally hurt by financial losses. DH met a very elderly woman who was working at a front desk somewhere. He joked with her about working at her age and she said "Bernie Madoff". She was losing her home. The people who might actually deserve scorn are not the ones being hurt. Wall Street is doing fine... it's Main Street that still suffers. I do not feel any glee toward anyone's misfortune. And...BTW...I did NOT participate in all the banking programs that landed so many in misery. I refused to drink that koolaid.
That being said... the market is what it is. Price means everything these days. I continue to be amazed as the housing market goes through its' contortions. It is fine to talk to your banker about value...but be aware that new laws took effect this summer and bankers can't talk to or use their favorite appraisers now. Verboten. That's why appraisals have started to get nuts. You are more likely to get an appraiser who's from an "appraisal farm" and doesn't know your area from a hole in the ground. And...they may only be a "note taker" and take info back to the "real" appraiser who never sees your home. My home is now below 2005 values. I will be grateful to be out from under the expense of owning it and very happy to be able to just move on with life. The poster who said we lose sight of our most precious asset...our time and life... is spot on. I don't want to waste any more heartbeats.
Too all who have sold their homes and are at last free...Much Joy to you and CONGRATULATIONS!!!! To those still waiting... crunch your numbers and decide what it is that's truly important to you and then have a very serious discussion with your realtor. Don't wait around. Finally...take a deep breath and keep moving on. Good luck.
cts
"I had to cringe because there are a lot of people who have been badly damaged through no fault of their own."
No fault of their own? The fact that they believed the lie that their house was somehow magically worth 200%-300% more than it really is? Look.... housing prices don't double and triple EVER. Housing prices were flatter than a pancake from 1890-1999 and all of a sudden they triple and people think it's real???? I have no sympathy for people who think a primary residence is somehow an "investment" and are somehow "owed" a grossly inflated amount for something everyone knows deep down isn't worth a fraction of the fantasy asking price.
Housing prices have a long long way to fall and it as a "realtor", you should step up to the ethics your organization claims to hold high and tell the public the truth about this. You know it, I know it.
Wow. TH...I'm not sure where to start with you. You appear to have a tremendous amount of anger and frustration, and I have to wonder... were you or a loved one involved in a real estate transaction that went wrong? As for me stepping up to the ethics standards of the NAR, while those standards are high...I adhere to a higher level of ethics and accountability. I once had a broker tell me that I was too honest to ever make good money. That has proven to be true so I won't take offense from your words.
As for the current housing bubble/crash...many factors played into this. Some factors were well intentioned...making it easier for people to buy homes when in fact those people were not genuinely qualified to be able to keep making the payments. Buyers were encouraged to buy as much house as they could afford...even if it meant eating hotdogs everyday. I often said this was wrong...and indeed would prove to be harmful. But...as long as there was money to be made, people ran with it. It did me no good to explain to buyers that they should buy less house than what they qualified for. They went to other realtors who wouldn't "preach" to them.
Other factors...financial competitors had to come up with "new and improved" programs to attract buyers. Mortgages have to be backed up by investors who are willing to accept a certain amount of risk. Mortgage brokers make a percentage off the deals they put together. Everyone all up and down the real estate food chain has a piece of the pie. Appraisers, mortgage brokers, closers, title companies, surveyors, tax examiners, developers, builders and realtors. All of these fees and costs are annoying to buyers and sellers...especially sellers... but it's a cost of doing business and it keeps food on the table and the lights on for a lot of people. In addition to that...a lot of states have transfer fees... you get taxed on the size of your mortgage and taxed on the sale price the house. It's double taxation...but most people aren't aware of that and don't even question it. It wasn't just the "industrial realestate complex", but government involvement as well. As property values rose so did the tax base.
As for "the truth" that home prices have a lot lower to go... I do NOT know that. I don't have a crystal ball. I suspect that in certain areas of the country that may be the case... and that is a function of economic realities of the regions. That...has always been the enduring truth of real estate. If you have more demand for an area...the price goes up. If the demand falls...so does the price. In the current economic reality...demand is down. A lot of People have lost their jobs and those that do have jobs and money are cautious.
That being said... while there are people who bought homes betting on the increase...essentially gamblers... who are caught holding the bag...there are many more who did it the "old fashioned way". They worked, they saved, they put high down payments on their homes and paid their taxes. They lived in their homes a long time and kept them up. Then a medical problem got them, a job loss got them, a divorce or death got them. Or...an unscrupulous money manager cheated them. They were/are hardworking people who always believed that if they did right they would be done right by others.
Did some of them believe wrongly? Probably. Do they deserve to be laughed at? No. Again...the ones who deserve scorn and punishment are not feeling the pain. It's your neighbor down the street who's maxing out their last credit card (another industrial complex!!) to make ends meet. It's the neighbor whose 401k became a 201 or 101k because the trustee invested in the wrong place. It's the retiree who's had to go back to work because their retirement fund fell apart or their pensions have been trashed by corporate greed and "restructuring".
It's fine to be angry...heck...I AM REALLY ANGRY...about it. I warned about this kind of thing starting TEN years ago. But I won't take pleasure in the misery of others. As a realtor...I make my views known to the political action committees of all the organizations I belong to. I am also well aware of the widely held view that all realtors are money hungry shysters. All I can say to that is...are there bad apples? Yes...all institutions and organizations have them. We try to weed them out. If anyone has a complaint against a realtor...there are venues to be heard and you should pursue it.
As for the new appraisal laws...while these were well intentioned laws designed to protect the public...the implementation has proven to be problematic. Bankers can no longer choose or speak to an appraiser. Appraisal "farms" have sprung up..essentially clearing houses for appraisers. An order comes in and an appraiser is notified to go. I have heard so many horror stories... the wrong house got appraised and the appraiser says it wouldn't have made a difference anyway.... one appraiser says a house is worth 30k less than what one appraiser said a week ago or vice versa. Once again, good intentions did not work out the way it was supposed to.
I am certainly in favor of a fair... true arms length...contract and appraisal. I am in favor of getting rid of the greed and corruption wherever it is found. If a plan is put into place and it is found to be flawed...it needs to be abandoned or modified.
Things have changed...are changing. People have the responsibility to really read and understand what they are signing. If that means getting an attorney to review the contract...by all means do it. I've used attorney's in my own personal transactions...and I am familiar with the contracts!!
Well, pardon the long winded post. This is a profession I have long loved and enjoyed. It is with deep sorrow that I see so many wounded. That's why I say really crunch your numbers. Decide what is the most important to YOU. Don't waste your heartbeats...find the best way possible and move on to what's best for you.
cts
And here's a perfect example why the reputation of the house sales "profession"(not that there is anything professional about it)has fallen to the level of deep sea shells. House salesman are always the first to deny that prices are falling.... and make no mistake about it, they're falling and there is no bottom. And to make matters worse, whenever they're called out on their shenanigans, their excuse is always some airy fairy, unquantifiable nonsense which is part and parcel of the sales technique too.
If you actually adhered to your seemingly indignation of the entire house sales market, I would have found posts indicating such on this forum. What I did find? More unquantifiable, speculative, mamby pamby realtor talk.
All right folks....enuf already..... Get back to the topic (which is not berating real estate agents) or I will have to send y'all to your rooms and clean this up
DianneOK, moderator
Dianne
Donnelly, ID
DataStorm
HAM WB6N (Terry)
2010 Ford F350, 4x4 SRW, xcab, longbed (will not be pulling the Teton)
2005 Teton 39' Frontier Grand
Life Member Good Sam
Escapees
Geocache..."RVcachers" RV net Blog
Offline
Online
Get back to the topic (which is not berating real estate agents) or I will have to send y'all to your rooms and clean this up 
cts
