donn0128 wrote: From personal experiences if you tow over the trucks GVWR you are asking for problems. JMHO.
Don, I was wondering what kind of problems?
How many accidents did you have while towing over GVWR?
How many times did you break down while towing over GVWR?
What was the total cost of mechanical repairs because you were towing over GVWR?
How many people died or were hurt because you were towing over GVWR?
I really want to know.
At a recent Heartland rally the sponsors provided scales. 80% of those attending the rally were over GVWR. I have no doubt that this is very close to the same across the board in the RV world. You would think if exceeding GVWR was asking for trouble then we would be seeing a very high rate of incidents involving these TV's. According to my insurance agent the exact opposite is the case. If we were seeing these "problems" we would be required by our insurance companies to provide weight tickets before we would be issued our policies. But in fact insurance companies love writing policies for RVers because there is a very low claim rate. I understand your comfort level and the decision to purchase a larger truck. And I understand that this was simply you offering your opinion. However, I think it is important for the OP to understand that if being over GVWR is the sole factor in your past bad experiences, statistical history says that your experiences are very different than the vast majority of RVers.
2006 2500HD CC SB 4X4 Duramax/Allison
Prodigy/16K Reese/265E Tires/Bilstein Shocks
RM Active Suspension/RDS 60gal Toolbox combo
You could phone the company that makes the trailer you are interested in and ask them if there are any changes to the length and weights compared with the new models out this year.
You need to check because there can be differences that could affect your buying decision that might or might not be real. Eg, Komfort changed their 26FS in 2005 and the Komfort guy said , "The new 26 is a foot longer than the old one." But the big thing was the GVWR went from 10K to 11.6K while the UVW stayed almost the same.
The trick was they changed the tires from 15Cs to 15Ds and thus the GAWR went way up and they gave it a much higher GVWR but the actual trailer still weighed about the same as the old one. If you didn't know better, if your truck was just maxed on the old 26, you would think you would be unable to handle the new 26 because of the much higher GVWR in the new brochure. The fact is, all it was was stronger tires. If you load it the same, it will weigh the same. (Which is why I say to use the UVW and add your own cargo wt instead of using the GVWR.)
If you are getting frustrated, why not post your truck model and engine etc, and the "occupants and cargo" limit on the door sticker and the GCWR it has (from the driver's manual) plus the rough size (in length and slide numbers--not weight-) of fiver you are looking at? People here will be able to suggest a few models that would fit that truck and help get you focused.
You may want to consider buying a "ratings" CD put out by RV Consumer Group. It goes back several years - providing length, weight, GVWR, and value/reliability/highway control ratings on all models from all manufacturers. The info it provided was quite helpful for me. It alerted me to a manufacturer I had never heard of. After extensive shopping, comparison with other brands, and other research, in July 2007, I bought a unit they rated at 4 stars (out of a max of 5 stars) - the unit in my signature. So far, we're very pleased with our choice.
For more info on RV Consumer Group, go to www.rv.org.
2006 Ford F350 V10 2WD SRW SuperCab Short Bed
2005 Sunnybrook Titan 30RKFS Fifth Wheel
You can find a lot of sites that will list a lot of numbers, but in reality most of them don’t matter. What does matter is what “your” truck, with “your” options, will carry. And, the only way to find that out is to weigh it.
Load up your family as if you are heading out on a trip, then drive to a scale and get the real weight of your truck for each axle. (NOTE: if you do not already have a 5th wheel hitch installed, add about 100 lbs to your rear axle weight) Subtract the rear axle weight from the rear GAWR on “your” door panel. Then add both axle weights together and subtract that from the GVWR on “your” door panel. The “smaller” of the two numbers is what “your” truck ratings say you can carry.
Next you have to figure out what the loaded pin weight will be on the 5er you are looking at. “Stuff” will expand to fill all the available spaces in whatever you buy. You will run very close to the GVWR of the 5er you buy. The pin weight will wind up being somewhere between 18% and 20% of the GVWR of the 5er. Compare that number to what you calculated that you can carry in the paragraph above.
'02 F350 7.3PSD CC LB DRW, Reese 20K Hitch, Brake Smart, AirLift, C-betr mirrors,
'04 Everest 343L, TrailAir, RotoChoks, Wayne's stabilizer
Toys: Fold-Away Pet Carrier, Thermos Grill 2 GO
For more info, visit Our RV web site.
donn0128 wrote: From personal experiences if you tow over the trucks GVWR you are asking for problems. JMHO.
Don, I was wondering what kind of problems?
How many accidents did you have while towing over GVWR?None. But there were a few close calls where i was worried that I would loose control of the load.
How many times did you break down while towing over GVWR?Again, none. But, when the truck went away it was constantly overheating even when outside temps were in the 70's. And at the time of trade in it needed the rear main seal replaced. So, it did not break down, but was falling apart. This on a truck with less than 12K miles on it.
What was the total cost of mechanical repairs because you were towing over GVWR?
How many people died or were hurt because you were towing over GVWR?
I really want to know.
At a recent Heartland rally the sponsors provided scales. 80% of those attending the rally were over GVWR. I have no doubt that this is very close to the same across the board in the RV world. You would think if exceeding GVWR was asking for trouble then we would be seeing a very high rate of incidents involving these TV's. According to my insurance agent the exact opposite is the case. If we were seeing these "problems" we would be required by our insurance companies to provide weight tickets before we would be issued our policies. But in fact insurance companies love writing policies for RVers because there is a very low claim rate. I understand your comfort level and the decision to purchase a larger truck. And I understand that this was simply you offering your opinion. However, I think it is important for the OP to understand that if being over GVWR is the sole factor in your past bad experiences, statistical history says that your experiences are very different than the vast majority of RVers.
I would have to beg to differ with you on this point. I believe that the vast majority of people towing fifth wheels have no clue as to how heavy they actually are. And if they had the opportunity to tow a properly matched combination would be surprised how well it handles in comparison to their unit. Like I have stated in several previous threads, it is not a matter of the truck totally self destructing in the first five minutes of being overloaded. Not at all. The problem comes in wear and tear. 12,000 miles for a rear main seal to last? Overheating at 70 degrees outside temp? Those are not normal items to have problems with. Also to even get close to feeling safe I had to add new higher rated tires to a truck with 8000 miles on it, Also added air bags to help keep the load level. Now take that 21000 pounds and drive in the mountains for a while. Every turn I felt like the truck was being pushed all over the road. And this is not speeding. This is trying to maintain 50MPH on roads that with the proper truck I can now hole closer to 60 on the same turns. People will choose to tow over the manufacturers GVWR and will spend all sorts of effort to justify their actions. I did for two years. But let me say one more time, if YOU or anyone else chooses to tow overloaded that is their right in a free society. At the same time those people need to accept the responsibility for that action. And like another poster mentioned, if I ever get into an accident with an Rver and it looks even remotely like he could be towing overloaded, I will demand that his rig be impounded and weighed. If it is over then my lawyer will have a field day. Not a threat, just a simple statement of fact.
* This post was
edited 01/24/08 10:27pm by an administrator/moderator *
donn0128 wrote: From personal experiences if you tow over the trucks GVWR you are asking for problems. JMHO.
Don, I was wondering what kind of problems?
How many accidents did you have while towing over GVWR?None. But there were a few close calls where i was worried that I would loose control of the load.
How many times did you break down while towing over GVWR?Again, none. But, when the truck went away it was constantly overheating even when outside temps were in the 70's. And at the time of trade in it needed the rear main seal replaced. So, it did not break down, but was falling apart. This on a truck with less than 12K miles on it.
What was the total cost of mechanical repairs because you were towing over GVWR?
How many people died or were hurt because you were towing over GVWR?
I really want to know.
At a recent Heartland rally the sponsors provided scales. 80% of those attending the rally were over GVWR. I have no doubt that this is very close to the same across the board in the RV world. You would think if exceeding GVWR was asking for trouble then we would be seeing a very high rate of incidents involving these TV's. According to my insurance agent the exact opposite is the case. If we were seeing these "problems" we would be required by our insurance companies to provide weight tickets before we would be issued our policies. But in fact insurance companies love writing policies for RVers because there is a very low claim rate. I understand your comfort level and the decision to purchase a larger truck. And I understand that this was simply you offering your opinion. However, I think it is important for the OP to understand that if being over GVWR is the sole factor in your past bad experiences, statistical history says that your experiences are very different than the vast majority of RVers.
I would have to beg to differ with you on this point. I believe that the vast majority of people towing fifth wheels have no clue as to how heavy they actually are. And if they had the opportunity to tow a properly matched combination would be surprised how well it handles in comparison to their unit. Like I have stated in several previous threads, it is not a matter of the truck totally self destructing in the first five minutes of being overloaded. Not at all. The problem comes in wear and tear. 12,000 miles for a rear main seal to last? Overheating at 70 degrees outside temp? Those are not normal items to have problems with. Also to even get close to feeling safe I had to add new higher rated tires to a truck with 8000 miles on it, Also added air bags to help keep the load level. Now take that 21000 pounds and drive in the mountains for a while. Every turn I felt like the truck was being pushed all over the road. And this is not speeding. This is trying to maintain 50MPH on roads that with the proper truck I can now hole closer to 60 on the same turns. People will choose to tow over the manufacturers GVWR and will spend all sorts of effort to justify their actions. I did for two years. But let me say one more time, if YOU or anyone else chooses to tow overloaded that is their right in a free society. At the same time those people need to accept the responsability for that action. And like another poster mentioned, if i ever get into an accident with an Rver and it looks even remotely like he could be towing overloaded, I will demand that his rig be impounded and weighed. If it is over then my lawyer will have a field day. Not a threat, just a simple statement of fact.
"Then my lawyer will have a field day"
I love that. One of the most used scare tatics on this forum yet no one has been able to show one shred of evidence where door sticker GVWR has ever played a major role in a court case much less where it allowed a lawyer to have a field day. You seem to be very fond of these type of scare tatics.
Again the experiences you are relating are not common on this forum for people with like combos. My truck has not had any of the problems you stated. We read post after post of people with these type combos who have driven many miles without failures. And I too like many others have driven these rigs through the CO mountains during the middle of summer without any overheating problems. Perhaps you got a bad apple but that doesn't mean that the whole barrel is rotten.
I would also challange the suggestion that these combos are overloaded. Just because a person is over the door sticker in no way means they are overloaded. The fact remains that the sticker states "as shipped". Once mods are done the sticker is no longer valid. These combos can be towed and be well within all applicable limits.
I understand that you did not feel in control driving this type of combination. I know people who do not feel in control driving anything larger than a Civic. You should never drive anything that you do not have the confidence/skill level to maintain control. I for one have never experienced this out of control feeling.
The funny thing is the airbags that you installed to help your truck may have been one of the culprits of your out of control feeling. Many airbags are installed with the feed lines connected allowing air to transfer from one bag to the other in weight shifts. This would lean in turns worse than a stock truck. Those that are installed with separate feed lines can also be problematic because often one bag does not have exactly the same pressure as the other creating lean issues. I however installed an Active Suspension which eliminates the need for airbags and actually stabalizes the TV in turns greatly reducing lean. If you are going to modify your TV you need to know what you are doing and how it is going to effect the other components. I for one have done my homework.
Of course if I dropped all that money I would claim that I made the right decision to. I'm glad for you because I don't want you on the road in something you do not have the confidence to drive any more than you want to be driving it.
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Yea, I figured you were trying to lead me on so you could make a point. And I was right. Don't know or care about your background. However I have been a mechanic of one sort or another for nearly 40 years. Was originally trained as a machinist. so you are not talking to some jerk off the street. You can do what YOU want when it comes to loading your vehicles. That is YOUR decision. Like I said before all I can do is offer comments about my personal experiences. YOU can choose to accept or reject then as YOU please. But baiting or slamming someone because they happen to have different thoughts than you do is really unprofessional.
donn0128 wrote: Yea, I figured you were trying to lead me on so you could make a point. And I was right. Don't know or care about your background. However I have been a mechanic of one sort or another for nearly 40 years. Was originally trained as a machinist. so you are not talking to some jerk off the street. You can do what YOU want when it comes to loading your vehicles. That is YOUR decision. Like I said before all I can do is offer comments about my personal experiences. YOU can choose to accept or reject then as YOU please. But baiting or slamming someone because they happen to have different thoughts than you do is really unprofessional.
No bait, no slam. I used your words as you described the situation. What I don't understand is if you have been a mechanic for 40 years how did you possibly find yourself in this "unsafe" condition to begin with. If your prior experience had any bearing on this conversation whatsoever, then why did you not know better in the first place?
Let's discuss professionalism. Is telling someone to let you know when they are going to be on the road so you can call 911 so that medical personell can be dispatched to the accident they cause being professional? Oh thats right you apologized to that forum member, after I told you that you should know better.
Professionals (hot shot'ers as one example) drive these same rigs well over door sticker ratings everyday many of them traveling a million miles without incident and without repairs beyond what is considered normal wear and tear. Of course I am sure that you will accuse these professionals of being unprofessional for exceeding GVWR. I am sure you know a how lot more about it than they do given your 40 years experience as a mechanic.
"slamming someone because they happen to have different thoughts than you do is really unprofessional"
I could not resist when I read this. Below is a post of yours from today. I think you just called yourself unprofessional. If this is not a slam then nothing is.
"It is really obvious that the OP has his heart set on buying a 2500HD and will spend what ever amount of money it takes to "upgrade" this vehicle in an attempt to tow his intended fifth wheel. His mind is made up, so personally I think it is useless to try and point him in what we believe to be the right direction and save him a lot of money in the process. Funny though, he asked for an opinion, we have given it to him and now he refuses to listen. Oh well, can't please everyone."
* This post was
edited 01/24/08 08:25pm by jmramiller *
But the big thing was the GVWR went from 10K to 11.6K while the UVW stayed almost the same. 
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