Pamelajo wrote: Is this what the OP wants us to write to support?
Yes, this is what they want people to support. No reason for people to be parked there, other than pure laziness. I am not an environmentalist, but when I see lazy people, doing stupid things such as this, I become one. I have seen shorelines in lakes, river and stream beds ruined by uncaring people, that in the long run ruin it for everyone. Then when the government has to step in and do something, they cry foul. I never said close the area, I said move the vehicles back, but when one side is unwilling to compromise an inch, the next step is "close it". If you want to "huff and puff" and stick out your chin, best be prepared for the NPS to deliver a knock out punch.
Yes, I am a golfer. The course where I live is a bird sanctuary. The geese do tend to make a mess, and we do have to coexist with them. Which I would rather do, than coexist with the people who feel it is necessary to drive their 4X4's down to the shoreline so they are more comfortable watching the waves. If you walked that distance regularly you probably would be more comfortable in the long run. But, that is not the American way, is it? When I am physically able to play, I walk the vast majority of the time, not something that is easy to do when it is 100 degrees out. But, nonetheless I and my DW do it. I have seen idiots chase the geese with golf carts around here, and I have seen the very same idiots evicted from the course.
Scream all you want, but as long as you are not willing to compromise, and it appears you are not based on your posting's here, your delicate and beautiful shoreline area's of the banks (and I have been there) will end up being closed. Yes, government is responsible for providing availability for the general public's use, but they are also responsible for protecting the area. When it becomes a choice for government between availability for you or protection of the environment, protection will win out. Maybe not today nor tomorrow, but it will win.
D & M wrote: Actually the picture shows a turtle that was squashed, not a bird. But no matter, the picture is from the Audobon Socity (no fan of driving on the beach), and the picture of the crowd on the beach enjoying themselves is from Southern Enviroment.org, another lefty organization.
Anyone can present an point of view and put a couple of heart wrenching pictures into the mix to support the argument. But, these things need to be put into prospective.
The beach is crowed, but the people are enjoying it. If you don't like it dont' go to that area. There are plenty of no drive beaches in this country. And yes, the poor turtle is dead, but was it run over by a person that truly has a hatered of turtles and the environment, or was it an accident? Was it the last turtle on the planet, or was it a straggler of a herd (?) of turtles? Was it even a turtle that lives in OBX?
And for the record, we have been to OBX a number of times, and I don't drive on the beach by choice. Not because I am worried about the turtles but because I don't fish. I have no need to be out there. I leave a spot for a fisherman that enjoys it.
Sorry, I didn't realize it was a Turtle (can't really tell) - want some facts from the NPS, as it relates to turtles...
EVERY morning during egg laying season... The park service drives the beaches early (crack of dawn) in search of turtle laying areas... they find these areas, many time, they actually dig the eggs up, move them closer to the dunes (to prevent our frequent storms and high tides) from destroying the eggs - they move the eggs to a new hole, place chicken wire over them (to keep out the racoons, foxes, cats, birds, crabs, and other preditors) - document all of it, along with the location...
It is said (from a NPS employees mouth to my ears) - that 1 in 10 tutles makes it from the hole, to the water once hatched (due to crabs, birds, coons, foxes, whatever) - and for every 10 that hit the water - 1 will see 1 year old...
Folks this is nature.
A few years ago, the environmentalist said that we had to many Canada Geese living year around at the Pea Island National WILDLIFE REFUGE (which is the first 13 miles of hatteras island) - so guess what they did... They shot them, and left the carcasses for the foxes and coons..
Then the foxes were eating the nesting birds in the same area... guess what they did... Shot the foxes...
By the way - walking to where that picture was taken of all the ORV's area parked is not plausible... it's about 2 miles thru sand - toting your coolers, beach chairs, kids, etc. is not possible (unless you are training for a tri-athelon or toughman contest)...
Wow. Thanks, oltroll, for bringing this to our attention. And, thanks especially to you, HI Builder, for 'educating' those on here that ALWAYS have to throw up the negative comments, that know nothing about the subject involved.
As one that has visited Outer Banks many, many times, and loves going out on those desolate, unspoiled beaches with our truck....let me say, this makes me very sad. Those beaches are one of the main reasons we love owning a 4x4. We try to get out there nearly every year. Love spending the day out there with the family, enjoying the beach the way it was intended to be - almost nothing but sand and ocean, as far as you can see, without all the touristy development.
If they do indeed close these beaches, well, thats one place we will STOP going to. And, I can promise you, so will many, MANY other people, especially fisherman. You will absolutely destroy one of the main reasons millions of people go there. 'Bout the time they completely destroy the economy of the island out there 'cause nobody wants to go there anymore....perhaps somebody will realize just how foolish this is.
Actually, truth be told, they are NOT going to close it permanently, anyway. From what I understand, they want NPS to have a policy for ORVs, and until that policy is put in place, they *may* close them. Sooo, eventually, it will open back up even if they get their way, with some restrictions on ORVs being used out there. Those restrictions on ORVs are probably needed, anyway. Question is, how long will it take NPS to get such a policy, and how much damage will it do the local economy, until they do get such policy.
Will & Angela
2 wonderful children that love camping, Stephen & Allison
2003 Ford Excursion V10 4x4
2003 Thor Citation 33M, Hensley Arrow hitch, Brakesmart Brake Control
(wanna see? Here is a picture of it )
Pamelajo wrote: Is this what the OP wants us to write to support?
Yes, this is what they want people to support. No reason for people to be parked there, other than pure laziness. I am not an environmentalist, but when I see lazy people, doing stupid things such as this, I become one. I have seen shorelines in lakes, river and stream beds ruined by uncaring people, that in the long run ruin it for everyone. Then when the government has to step in and do something, they cry foul. I never said close the area, I said move the vehicles back, but when one side is unwilling to compromise an inch, the next step is "close it". If you want to "huff and puff" and stick out your chin, best be prepared for the NPS to deliver a knock out punch.
Yes, I am a golfer. The course where I live is a bird sanctuary. The geese do tend to make a mess, and we do have to coexist with them. Which I would rather do, than coexist with the people who feel it is necessary to drive their 4X4's down to the shoreline so they are more comfortable watching the waves. If you walked that distance regularly you probably would be more comfortable in the long run. But, that is not the American way, is it? When I am physically able to play, I walk the vast majority of the time, not something that is easy to do when it is 100 degrees out. But, nonetheless I and my DW do it. I have seen idiots chase the geese with golf carts around here, and I have seen the very same idiots evicted from the course.
Scream all you want, but as long as you are not willing to compromise, and it appears you are not based on your posting's here, your delicate and beautiful shoreline area's of the banks (and I have been there) will end up being closed. Yes, government is responsible for providing availability for the general public's use, but they are also responsible for protecting the area. When it becomes a choice for government between availability for you or protection of the environment, protection will win out. Maybe not today nor tomorrow, but it will win.
TopFlight - Answer me this... where on the Outer Banks have you been (what village/island/etc.)? And, When was it?
Also, I am reading that you think that we are eroding the beach away by driving ORV's on it??? And you think we should park closer to the Sand Dunes (which have naturally occuring vegetation on them, and have been here since the 1930's CCW camps, correct? Are you kidding me, going near the dunes, and walking over the dunes, and disturbing that natural vegetation is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH worse than driving on the beach...
These islands are naturally shifting back and forth with every storm, and we get the QUITE often - the three worst hit areas on Hatteras Island are ALL closed to ORV's and have been for, well, my entire lifetime (at least 25 years, probably more like 45 years)...
willald wrote: Wow. Thanks, oltroll, for bringing this to our attention. And, thanks especially to you, HI Builder, for 'educating' those on here that ALWAYS have to throw up the negative comments, that know nothing about the subject involved.
As one that has visited Outer Banks many, many times, and loves going out on those desolate, unspoiled beaches with our truck....let me say, this makes me very sad. Those beaches are one of the main reasons we love owning a 4x4. We try to get out there nearly every year. Love spending the day out there with the family, enjoying the beach the way it was intended to be - almost nothing but sand and ocean, as far as you can see, without all the touristy development.
If they do indeed close these beaches, well, thats one place we will STOP going to. And, I can promise you, so will many, MANY other people, especially fisherman. You will absolutely destroy one of the main reasons millions of people go there. 'Bout the time they completely destroy the economy of the island out there 'cause nobody wants to go there anymore....perhaps somebody will realize just how foolish this is.
Actually, truth be told, they are NOT going to close it permanently, anyway. From what I understand, they want NPS to have a policy for ORVs, and until that policy is put in place, they *may* close them. Sooo, eventually, it will open back up even if they get their way, with some restrictions on ORVs being used out there. Those restrictions on ORVs are probably needed, anyway. Question is, how long will it take NPS to get such a policy, and how much damage will it do the local economy, until they do get such policy.
WILLALD,
Thanks for your support... You brought up a good topic actually... It's the topic of the NPS and the ORV RULES AND REGULATIONS... Here is a brief, you can read more in to it at www.islandfreepress.org and I highly, highly suggest that you do...
The NPS came in here in the 1950's and TOOK the land from the locals... However Conrad Wirth PROMISED in a letter (which can be read at islandfreepress.org) - "free and open beach access to the citizens and visitors alike, and unobstructed vehicular accesses to be constructed"... All of this has been done for YEARS... At the time, the NPS was supposed to come up with an ORV plan, and until they did, they were to be working under an "interim" plan... which they were and have been... In the 70's President Nixon ordered the NPS to get an ORV plan together again... which was negotiated out between NPS and local citizens and some special interest groups, etc. - it was mailed off to Washington and to Fla., only, in Govt. fashion to be lost forever!!! It has been the NPS and Fed. Govt.'s RESPONSIBILITY to come up with an ORV plan for the past 35 years... and they have failed to do so... Now the resident's of Hatteras Island are the ones to catch the brunt of this failure...
The NPS has had some poor, poor directors of our Park over the years, however the guy we have now is good... real good... He has had a REG NEG committee of 30 people - all from individual groups - from fishermen to tree huggers, bird watchers, property owners, county commissioners, tourist buerau's, etc. etc. etc. - and they all agree to sit down, come up with some rules, negotiate out the bird closures, nesting closures, policies and procedures - and take their suggestions to the "powers that be" for an ORV plan... Part of this Negotiated Rule Making Process was that no one would leave the table mad, sue, injunct, etc. etc. Both Audubon and Defenders of Wildlife have seats at REG NEG - and BOTH are plantiffs in the lawsuit AGAINST National Park Service and US Fish and Wildlife...
To some of you (TOPFLIGHT) that may be confused... National Park Service are the ones being sued, and are FOR ORV use in the park... We are NOT fighting Park Service, they are on our side for the most part... Based on Conrad Wirth's letter to local citizens, this is like taking away one of our local constitutional rights... NPS should have never been allowed here to begin with - Bet we wouldn't be faced with beach closure if they hadn't...
Local citizens have protected these beaches for hundreds of years - from national chain stores (we have two national brands on the ENTIRE island - a grocery store (food lion) and Ace Hardware) - no mcdonalds, no burger king, no BS... You guys think that they don't want to or haven't tried to come here?? Give me a break... local citizens are WAY more protective of this place than a bunch of bird lovers...
Thanks for your support... You brought up a good topic actually... It's the topic of the NPS and the ORV RULES AND REGULATIONS... Here is a brief, you can read more in to it at www.islandfreepress.org and I highly, highly suggest that you do...
Thanks. Indeed, I'll give it a read.
Quote: Local citizens have protected these beaches for hundreds of years - from national chain stores (we have two national brands on the ENTIRE island - a grocery store (food lion) and Ace Hardware) - no mcdonalds, no burger king, no BS... You guys think that they don't want to or haven't tried to come here?? Give me a break... local citizens are WAY more protective of this place than a bunch of bird lovers...
Got that right!
Always amazes me, how all these years y'all have managed to keep all the big chain restaurants, national brands, etc. off the island, and keep it very simple and unspoiled out there. All restaurants (the few there are) are locally owned, no fast food, no big chain department stores, none of that. Which, again, is one of the reasons we love going out there. Its a great way to get away from all the touristy******that has taken over most other beaches.
Been going to the OBX for years and years. I think the first trip was 1970 and the route in was not multi lane either. It too a while to get there. I know that locals have protected the beach to and we love to drive on the beach.
John
2001 42' Foretravel U320
2007 Bornfree 24 Painted
2001 Jeep Wrangler
2007 Burgman 650 Executive
Susie and Dolly (Cavalier King Charles Spaniels)
Dolly now in our hearts and thoughts 8-27-05
Doodle a Black and Tan Cavalier
Lolly a Ruby Cavalier
I believe it was Hatteras Island, it was either in 69 or 70, it has been a long time. Don't know why that matters, I wouldn't say I had been there if I hadn't. Didn't keep any receipts either. LOL
This is all very interesting! A government agency has not done what it was ordered to do, nothing new there. HI Builder discusses at great length about how the locals have kept the big chains out which is great. That said, he also discussed working 2 or 3 jobs to keep his home which I admire.
But now is the real reason of this thread to notify people of the possibility of the locals & visitors being able to use the beach area for recreation, or that fact that when the tourist stop coming, you can no longer afford to live there.
And no I have not been there, but my son in law and his family have been visiting OBX for over 30 years.
It's quite telling for TopFlite51 to call what is shown in those pictures as "laziness". And for others to deem walking as the only method of conveyance that is possible. CHNS is 50+ MILES long. A lot of the island shore isn't drivable or closed to ORVs. The NPS maintains access points along 12 South. But since you've never been there and obviously don't fish, you'd be required to walk ALL of your fishing gear the mile to miles to reach a choice fishing spot which CHANGES with the tides, EVERY day. Allow me to draw an analogy that someone in the deserts of LV might understand. Next time you are "able", uncouple your nice leather golf bag with it's 14 clubs plus ball retriever, umbrella, and assorted paraphernalia from the (perhaps motorized?) 3 wheel cart you use. Then, get yourself a 40 quart cooler (wheeled is fine) and fill it 3/4ths full with ice and drinks so you don't dehydrate. Throw away your golf umbrella and replace it with a nice large beach umbrella. Grab a lawn chair. Pack a lunch and put it in your cooler. Make sure you have another cooler with some ice in it (a smaller one is ok as long as you don't snag a nice 30 or 40 pound citation red drum or something) to put your bait and catch in. Now, take all of that stuff and walk out to a nice large sand trap and walk through it (use a pedometer to tell when you've gone a good couple miles). Then, pick a nice spot and have a seat. Sit there in the heat of the day, no shade now, not a bunker under a nice shade tree) except for your umbrella. Every once in a while get up from your lawn chair, grab your heaviest club and swing it for 3 or 4 minutes in a row, out in the sun then sit back down. Repeat this throughout the day. Then, after about 4 or 5 or 8 hours of this, pack all your gear up, walk around the sand trap hauling it all for another mile or two. Oh. And do it maybe with a couple small chilren, say an 8 year old and a 10 year old and don't forget to bring all THEIR stuff with you too. Let me know how you do.
To call it "lazy" is one of the most specious arguments I've ever heard made from a position of sheer ignorance. The reason you move a mile or more down the beach from where pedestrians and perhaps other recreators who may be playing in the surf or swimming is so that they dont get caught up in hooks and lines. How much fun do you think that would be?
No. You don't have to be there or go there to have an opinion. But before you call people lazy, do your homework.
Maybe you'd like a fisherman sitting 20 feet down the beach from where your kids are swimming to haul this baby in? I took the picture. This gentleman was fishing in his truck camper on the beach with his wife and his 11 year old son.
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