ImRebel wrote: THey were supposed to pull one off and take it to the spring shop to have it matched today. Kent
Not to rain on your parade, but the springs may be fine, they may just be the wrong ones....if the dealer matches the springs and replaces them with identical ones, the problem will be the same if the springs were wrong to begin with.
JJBIRISH wrote: I see you have bought the mfg. bs hook line and sinker... you are endorsing the single most falsehood they have pushed on us to date...
undersizeing the chassis only means lower quality at a higher cost... it is in part behind many of the complaints we read every day in these threads... the chassis they are using on most of the trailers today are barely legal and sometimes are only legal by making assumptions on its hitched up tongue weight when using wet weights...
the only known tongue weight is when sitting level and static...
hitched tongue weight varies a good bit depending on spring load required to get the TV and TT set up properly so will be different when hitched to a 1/2 ton and a 3/4 ton TV... the tongue weight will change going up or down hills over humps and bumps... each time the tongue weight changes so does the weight carried on the axles but using chassis and axles and tires so close to the legal edge you are creating a dangerous situation...
..Nice little rant, with insult tied in there. Let me see if I can clear things up a bit:
I agree with you, that its not good that they use axles so close to the limits. I too would prefer a little more safety margin. The point in my post was that what the OP saw for axle ratings, is very common in the RV industry. Nearly ALL RVs (except the extremely high end, high $$ stuff) are made that way.
This is most likely NOT the cause of the problems the OP was having, 'cause if it was, 95% of all RVs out there would all be experiencing it, too. The problem being discussed here is because of either defective or incorrect springs, wrong tire size, or extreme overloading. That was my point, and I stand by it.
Quote: ...anytime you axle rate, spring rate, tire weight rating fall below the GVWR of the unit you have undersized running gear plain and simple, and if you don't have trouble with it consider yourself very lucky...
..Painting with an awfully wide brush there, aren't you? You just said right there (in so many words) that 95% of all RVs have undersized running gear, and all the owners are lucky they havent had trouble.
Golly gee, must be a lot of luck going around, then. Guess that means I, and zillions of other people have been awful lucky, for an awful long time (like....10 years worth of lucky in my case).
Hint: My trailer, which fits in with what you're insulting here, indeed has a GVWR of 8800, and axles rated at 4000 lbs each. I don't know what the chassis itself is rated for, but based on the fact its made from very large I-beams (I'd guess 10 or 12"), I am not worried about the chassis being anywhere near the 'legal edge'.
Oh, and the axles: Yep, they are rated for 4,000 lbs each. Of course, the tires are rated for 2540 lbs each (load range D). In 5 years of camping all over the east coast, we have NEVER had a chassis, tire, or axle related problem. Ever. Nor did we have such kind of problem with our previous trailer or the one before that, both of which had similar weight ratios. I must be incredibly lucky according to you, though, huh?
Just FYI, going to the other extreme on axles (using axles rated for considerably more than they will have on them), can be very bad, too. Such can result in a suspension *too* stiff for a particular chassis/RV. Take an 'overkill' approach like some may suggest, and put axles rated for too much over the weight they will have on them, you can create a big problem. Suspension becomes very stiff, resulting in the trailer bouncing around much more than it was designed for, literally shaking the thing to pieces.
Perhaps the manufacturers know such, and is the reason why they don't use axles rated to handle considerably more weight than will ever be put on it. Ever thought of that, JJBIRISH?
..Nice little rant, with insult tied in there. Let me see if I can clear things up a bit:
rant, maybe, but not a insult by any means, and if you think it is I apologize...
I agree with you, that its not good that they use axles so close to the limits. I too would prefer a little more safety margin. The point in my post was that what the OP saw for axle ratings, is very common in the RV industry. Nearly ALL RVs (except the extremely high end, high $$ stuff) are made that way.
and here-in lies the problem and the reason for many RV related problems... what does the high-end stuff know the the other mfg's don't...
This is most likely NOT the cause of the problems the OP was having, 'cause if it was, 95% of all RVs out there would all be experiencing it, too. The problem being discussed here is because of either defective or incorrect springs, wrong tire size, or extreme overloading. That was my point, and I stand by it.
agree
Quote: ...anytime you axle rate, spring rate, tire weight rating fall below the GVWR of the unit you have undersized running gear plain and simple, and if you don't have trouble with it consider yourself very lucky...
..Painting with an awfully wide brush there, aren't you? You just said right there (in so many words) that 95% of all RVs have undersized running gear, and all the owners are lucky they haven't had trouble.
not a broad brush at all... I don't know about the percentages never had the many hours it would take to determine that... but yes many if not most RV's are running around with undersized running gear... and yes they are often running on luck... the severity of the problem and the amount of luck required depends on a lot of variables like distance traveled, quality of roads, owner care when driving which is usually more cautious since towing is so limited for many, environment, and owner maintenance...
Golly gee, must be a lot of luck going around, then. Guess that means I, and zillions of other people have been awful lucky, for an awful long time (like....10 years worth of lucky in my case).
I guess
Hint: My trailer, which fits in with what you're insulting here, indeed has a GVWR of 8800, and axles rated at 4000 lbs each. I don't know what the chassis itself is rated for, but based on the fact its made from very large I-beams (I'd guess 10 or 12"), I am not worried about the chassis being anywhere near the 'legal edge'.
again I am not insulting anything... this is what they are offering, and the tongue weight thing is something thought up by the marketing people to make the trailer CCC look better to the buyer...
we really need some better regulation in this industry...
they used to just plain lie about the weight of our trailer and it was up to us to figure it out since they now are required to give some weights the lying has to be within limits, this is just another way to lie to us...
Oh, and the axles: Yep, they are rated for 4,000 lbs each. Of course, the tires are rated for 2540 lbs each (load range D). In 5 years of camping all over the east coast, we have NEVER had a chassis, tire, or axle related problem. Ever. Nor did we have such kind of problem with our previous trailer or the one before that, both of which had similar weight ratios. I must be incredibly lucky according to you, though, huh?
my running gear is rated for the full GVWR of the trailer, and has my other trailers, and in very many more years than that I haven't had a problem either... I guess we are both just lucky... but many are not so lucky...
Just FYI, going to the other extreme on axles (using axles rated for considerably more than they will have on them), can be very bad, too. Such can result in a suspension *too* stiff for a particular chassis/RV. Take an 'overkill' approach like some may suggest, and put axles rated for too much over the weight they will have on them, you can create a big problem. Suspension becomes very stiff, resulting in the trailer bouncing around much more than it was designed for, literally shaking the thing to pieces.
now you are reaching and maybe trying to insult me... maybe you can point to where I have said this so I can make the proper corrections... many of my post include the saying just because a little of something is good, doesn't mean a lot is better... going either way in excess can be problematic... but given the choice I would much rather error and deal with the heavier axle and any ride problems that would create...
Perhaps the manufacturers know such, and is the reason why they don't use axles rated to handle considerably more weight than will ever be put on it. Ever thought of that, JJBIRISH?
have thought about that very much and is what brought me to these conclusions... they know how to maximize profit and sell a bill of goods... they make it sound reasonable and logical but its not... if your tongue is 700# and you use that number is it still 700# after snapping up the spring bars??? no its not, so there is a error in their math before taking anything else into account... it don't take much error when to close to the edge to start with...
I do however appreciate your thoughtful debate...
Jack
Will
Love my mass produced, entry level, built by Lazy American Workers, Hornet
willald wrote: Just FYI, going to the other extreme on axles (using axles rated for considerably more than they will have on them), can be very bad, too. Such can result in a suspension *too* stiff for a particular chassis/RV. Take an 'overkill' approach like some may suggest, and put axles rated for too much over the weight they will have on them, you can create a big problem. Suspension becomes very stiff, resulting in the trailer bouncing around much more than it was designed for, literally shaking the thing to pieces.
This is exactly the problem I have right now....GVWR on the TT is 9200 lbs, but it was built with 5200 lb axles and 3000 lb springs. So I have 12000 lbs of spring capacity carrying 7640 lbs (at the scale). Our first trip out it looked like somebody broke in and ransacked the place while we were driving down the road. Mine's at the dealer today having the correct 2600 lb springs installed. Cabinets and drawers literally shaken out of their frames, stuff strewn everywhere.
I like having the extra capacity, but too much is too much.
Remember some people here have confused bent axles with the engineered bend for camber alignment. The way the RV industry does their axle ratings is fine IMHO. If you overload your TT to the point the axles are overloaded your tires and springs would be squashed as well. It would be painfully obvious you were on the road to ruin. Look at how many pickups you see dragging bumpers. Now how many suffer snapped axles? There is fudge factor engineeried into the axles. It would be foolish and negligent to rate anything to the failure point as a max load.
willald wrote: Just FYI, going to the other extreme on axles (using axles rated for considerably more than they will have on them), can be very bad, too. Such can result in a suspension *too* stiff for a particular chassis/RV. Take an 'overkill' approach like some may suggest, and put axles rated for too much over the weight they will have on them, you can create a big problem. Suspension becomes very stiff, resulting in the trailer bouncing around much more than it was designed for, literally shaking the thing to pieces.
This is exactly the problem I have right now....GVWR on the TT is 9200 lbs, but it was built with 5200 lb axles and 3000 lb springs. So I have 12000 lbs of spring capacity carrying 7640 lbs (at the scale). Our first trip out it looked like somebody broke in and ransacked the place while we were driving down the road. Mine's at the dealer today having the correct 2600 lb springs installed. Cabinets and drawers literally shaken out of their frames, stuff strewn everywhere.
I like having the extra capacity, but too much is too much.
Don
your problem is rare and I seldom read one like it...
the fix you are having done sounds like the right thing to do... I think I may have tried a set of shocks on the springs you have first then the switch if that didn't work... that way even if you had to switch the springs the shocks would have been still a nice addition... either way I am sure you will be more satisfied with it...
2008 Terry 280FQS (pics here), with the no-bunks option. I ordered the Monroe shock retrofit kit from the Shock Warehouse 2 weeks ago, called them yesterday and found out the kit is out of stock and on indefinite backorder from Monroe. Was hoping to put them in at the same time as the springs, but alas, it's not to be. Will do that at a later date if they ever ship me the stuff.
The guy at Lippert suggested that a TT with 9200 GVWR probably called for 2200 lb springs and 4400 lb axles, but why be right at the edge of capacity? I have the 5200 lb axles, and D rated tires so why not the 2600 lb springs. I'm not looking for a Cadillac ride, just want stuff to stay in the closets.
* This post was
edited 05/02/08 12:57pm by BurbMan *
Keith99RS wrote: Remember some people here have confused bent axles with the engineered bend for camber alignment. The way the RV industry does their axle ratings is fine IMHO. If you overload your TT to the point the axles are overloaded your tires and springs would be squashed as well. It would be painfully obvious you were on the road to ruin. Look at how many pickups you see dragging bumpers. Now how many suffer snapped axles? There is fudge factor engineeried into the axles. It would be foolish and negligent to rate anything to the failure point as a max load.
Keith
I am not sure how to respond to your post, other than we won't agree on how the industry rates their axles... disagreement isn't bad and can be found in every thread... and the other thing I don't agree with but could be different with different set-ups is overloading or even under inflation are not painfully obvious at first... while my trailer is sitting on flat ground I can let ten pounds of air out of each tire... while I am doing it I know and can see them go down a little, but when they are all the same it isn't painfully obvious... I haven't tried to leave the air alone and just add weight to see the difference but suspect the results would be similar...
the springs on the other hand on my trailer look exactly the same loaded as empty and would need measured to see the difference... short arched springs on trailers shouldn't flatten out like long springs do the TV do...
IMHO while failure may not be right at max load it isn't very far from it... once you overload the liability is yours and overloading a little less won't change that...
Here is my outcome. They have removed all four springs. The diagnosis is that they are all defective. Maybe a bad batch.
THey springs have been replaced with new 2000# springs. The originals were supposed to be 1750#. They have also repaired the burn marks from the tires in the underbelly fabric. They have also installed a peice of sheet metal above the tires on the driver side; there was only fabric there before. The sheet metal was at my request to hopefully prevent damage in the event of a tire problem.
So if all goes well, I am supposed to pick it up tomorrow morning. Anything you can think of that I should be looking for?
Thanks for everything,
Reb
Kent & Kim
Southern California
2008 Springdale 267BHLGL
2003 Ford F250 CC LB 4x2 V10
SuperDutyMan wrote: and don't start with the attorney crap,that just pi$$E$ ME RIGHT OFF,everybody wants to sue!We are campers....RELAX and see...they are taking care of it.
There comes a time often when the only way to get things done is to get an attorney involved, not to sue but speed things along. Why do you assume that everyone wants to sue just because they get legal representation? Has your only interaction with attorneys been someone wanting to sue you? Attorneys do more than just sue people.
I agree we should relax and see what happens, however when you have to cancel trips and change your whole summer family plans because a manufacturer or dealer can't get the job done within a reasonable amount of time it sometimes becomes necasary to get an attorney to protect yourself from being taken advantage of just because "we are campers".
2007 Thor Wave 26RLS
2004 Chevy 2500HD Gas Hog
DW Michelle, Son Tyler, Daughter Kaitlyn, and one on the way!
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