brain wrote: I also heard an accumulator adds more complexity in winterizing.
I do not see how it could impact winterizing. I mounted my tank with the opening pointing down, so it will completely drain. Some mount the tank on it's side, but I cannot see how you could drain it.
Wayne
Winterize? You do that? I thought you used your camper year round.
Do you compressed air or antifreeze winterize?
With compressed air, the worry is that the outlet pipe will still hold water. Let the pressure build to 30-40 PSI a few times and then blow. It will cause the air to fill then blow the accumulator. That's what I do.
If you use antifreeze, the biggest problem is flushing, not winterizing. The accumulator will hold antifreeze and be real hard to flush. I suspect the easiest way would be to remove the tank and flush out the piping to a bucket.
Just beware that the computerized pumps pull 20-30 mA of power whenever they are on to run the "brain" and pressure sensor. The old design uses a pressure switch, so they don't have a standby draw.
My camper was set up pretty good to begin with, so noise wasn't an issue. I bought a 1 gallon accumulator tank from Lowes. It makes a HUGE difference, I can use about a quart of water per pump cycle. No more surging. I also turn off the pump at bedtime and don't worry about mid night trips waking others.
As Reddog1 mentioned, you need to reset the pressure to about 20 PSI. Use the air fitting at the top, and set the pressure using a tire pressure gage. Most come from the factory with 40PSI since they are intended to use as water heater expansion tanks.
brain wrote: I also heard an accumulator adds more complexity in winterizing.
I do not see how it could impact winterizing. I mounted my tank with the opening pointing down, so it will completely drain. Some mount the tank on it's side, but I cannot see how you could drain it.
Wayne
Winterize? You do that? I thought you used your camper year round.
Do you compressed air or antifreeze winterize?
With compressed air, the worry is that the outlet pipe will still hold water. Let the pressure build to 30-40 PSI a few times and then blow. It will cause the air to fill then blow the accumulator. That's what I do.
If you use antifreeze, the biggest problem is flushing, not winterizing. The accumulator will hold antifreeze and be real hard to flush. I suspect the easiest way would be to remove the tank and flush out the piping to a bucket.
I do not winterize my TC, and I do use it year round. My statement was; "I do not see how it could impact winterizing."
If you mount the tank with the opening down, how could it not drain?
If I had the need to winterize my TC, I think I would replace most of my water lines with flexible lines, that if frozen, would allow for expansion. I would also add drains in the water system to insure the water heater and such, are totally drained.
JeffPritchard wrote: Half baked idea...
In an RV, since you already have a closed system to work with, why not use air pressure to put the water under pressure.
This is not a "Half baked idea...". I had a 5er that used air pressure to pressurize the water system. I would not want that system in my TC.
The following are the negatives I experienced:
1 Constant battle with air leaks. It is much easier to locate and repair leaks in a water only system.
2 I had to replace the air compressor once, at $300. A water pump is less than $100.
3 The air compressor was much louder than my TC water pump.
4 My 5er had a steel tank for the water. Not a problem for the 5er, but extra weight for a TC.
Reddog1 wrote: If you mount the tank with the opening down, how could it not drain?
The tank drains, but there is no guarantee the lines would.
If you compress air winterize, there really isn't much of an issue. The greater issue is if you use antifreeze. The problem is getting the antifreeze flushed from the accumulator since it's a dead end that's not easily flushed.
Reddog1 wrote: If you mount the tank with the opening down, how could it not drain?
The tank drains, but there is no guarantee the lines would.
This is true with or without an accumulator tank.
Matthew_B wrote: If you compress air winterize, there really isn't much of an issue. The greater issue is if you use antifreeze. The problem is getting the antifreeze flushed from the accumulator since it's a dead end that's not easily flushed.
If you mount the tank with the inlet at the bottom, how could it not drain? Can you turn the open end of a glass of water down, without draining the water?
With the tank at the lowest part of your system, it could possibly not drain. But even at that, I think if it froze, the bladder would allow for enough expansion it would not rupture the tank or bladder.
Reddog1 wrote: If you mount the tank with the opening down, how could it not drain?
The tank drains, but there is no guarantee the lines would.
This is true with or without an accumulator tank.
Not entirely. The lines out of faucets drain because air can get in when the valves are opened. The accumulator is a dead end, so there is no way for air to enter.
Quote:
Matthew_B wrote: If you compress air winterize, there really isn't much of an issue. The greater issue is if you use antifreeze. The problem is getting the antifreeze flushed from the accumulator since it's a dead end that's not easily flushed.
If you mount the tank with the inlet at the bottom, how could it not drain? Can you turn the open end of a glass of water down, without draining the water?
With the tank at the lowest part of your system, it could possibly not drain. But even at that, I think if it froze, the bladder would allow for enough expansion it would not rupture the tank or bladder.
Again, if you winterize with compressed air, it's a non-issue. It will drain, no problem.
If you winterize with anti-freeze, the purging of anti-freeze is the big issue.
You state: "The accumulator is a dead end, so there is no way for air to enter." If air cannot enter, water or anti-freeze cannot enter.
Do you really think mounting the tank with the inlet at the bottom, it could not drain?
It is possible to mount the tank, with the inlet at the bottom, so it would not drain. But, to do so would almost have to be deliberate, and require a lot of effort. Hopefully it should be obvious that it would have to be in a low spot in the water lines.
A very simple fix would to install a drain at the bottom of the tank. Do you still think you could not drain the tank?
Water pump is bad. It's leaking water back through it into the tank.
Actually, I'm happy about this, as I wanted a reason to replace anyway, and it proves the lines are not leaking.
I want a quieter pump than the OEM stock one.
Reddog notes the Whisper King, but I think I want more GPM than that unit. 3.5 or so would be nice. Also, would like more PSI.
Space for an accumulator is a significant concern. I have precious little of it, and none under the sink.
Some have noted the variable speed pumps were overrated. Yet, it seems all the high end coaches use them and do not use accumulators. What am I missing?
The noise isn't from the pump itself, but from the things in your rig that get vibrated by the pump. If you were to take one of those same pumps and hook it up outside of the rig, like with a hose going into a tub of water, and the output side just shooting water across the yard, while you held the pump in your hand, you would barely be able to hear it. You would feel the pump vibrating in your hand, but the sound it produced would be very acceptable.
No pump you can buy will solve noise from a poor installation. RV manufacturers have never learned this. I hate to call them stupid, as they figure out lots of other more difficult problems. Somehow, however, this one seems to elude just about every RV maker in the world.
If you take pains to use flexible hoses both in and out, and find a way to isolate the pump's vibration from the excellent sounding board that the walls of an RV provides, you will have quiet water. Otherwise, you won't. People tend to balk at firm statements like that, and I'm usually among them, but in this case, it's simply a fact. Take any expensive "quiet" water pump and mount it in the stupid fashion that most RV manufacturers use, and it will sound like a jet taking off.
cheers,
jp
P.S. Variable speed pumps where a stupid idea from the get-go; they don't solve any known problem with RV water systems. Pump makers need to just make a big hefty one-speed pump.
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