You do require an annual inspection on any truck over 4500 kgs GVW, whether used for personal, commercial or otherwise. The quoted section relating to daily inspections is part of the commercial inspection procedure which includes logbooks, etc., which you don't have to do. This is a requirement under section 8 of Regulation 611 of the Ontario Highway Traffic Act, for which there are no exemptions relating to personal use or RV use.
Simply changing your permit (ownership) to a lower GVW number does not exempt you, your door post sticker lists your GVW, and if over 4500 kgs (virtually any dually), you need the annual, no exemptions. There is actually a Highway Traffic Act offence for having an incorrect weight recorded on your permit. Even though the MTO licence offices will change it on request, it is your responsibility to make sure your permit reflects the accurate GVW of your vehicle.
The CVOR requirement, and the ticket you received, is completely in error. Personal use, or RV use, absolutely does not require a CVOR. You can apply to the court to have your conviction re-opened for the CVOR charge. Don't waste your money on Pointts or any of the other companies trying to get you to pay for court assistance, traffic court is relatively informal. All traffic court matters are being pre-screened by the provincial prosecutors, they will call you in advance of court to discuss your case, let them know that you were charged in error, quote the appropriate section, and I'd be very surprised if they didnt withdraw it at that point.
PM me if you need more assistance, I'm a 23 year Ontario police officer.
2008 Jayco Eagle 325BHS
2006 Dodge Ram 3500 MegaCab 4X4, Cummins
2 kids age 6 & 8, and a 6 year old golden retriever...
Land Cruisers: Yeehah! Now that's the kind of thing we need to know. My RV'ing progression has been to try to comply to safety standards firstly.
I was overweight to maufacturers standards for my previous rig 36' Cedar Creek triple slide GVWR of 13,700lbs being towed by a 2500HD Duramax so attempted, upon retirement, to combine a tow vehicle that would be rated for the job plus be able to take a Harley along without the dreaded "double towing".
I had the truck custom built and was assured by various licensing agencies that a CDL would not be required for a recreational vehicle even though the old trailer was over the 10,000kg limit that dictates an A license. I did however require the "Z" endorsement. I was never informed of a CVOR being required for anything over 4500kg's.
I was also informed at time of purchasing the new trailer with GVWR of 18,500 that my dealer was part of a committee of RV dealers meeting with MTO to hash out some type of RV specific license that would negate the need for log keeping and other commercial applicable stuff and that has been on-going for over 3 years now.
The problem in this part of the world is that there is no such animal as a "non-commercial" A license. I would very willingly take whatever course and subject my vehicle to whatever inspection they want as long as I'm not classed "commercial' on any license I carry which brings a whole new level of scrutiny and responsibility in the eyes of LEO's everywhere and they cannot all be relied upon to exercise "sensible judgement" when looking at personal use only RV hooked to a truck that is within all safety limits for towing that RV.
Today is just the tomorrow you worried about yesterday!
'04' International 4400 LoPro 310Hp/950FtLbs 10Spd Harley/RV Toter
'05' Mobile Suites 38RL3
'01' Harley Ultra in the bike barn.
Bruce, if your driving the rig pictured above (with the weights you mention) in Ontario, you are not doing so legally - you are far in excess of the maximum allowable weights for both the G (and even D) license and if you get pulled over you'll be calling someone else to bring your rig home for you as they'll park you. The fact you hold the Z airbrake endorsement means nothing except for the fact you are legal to operate airbrakes, but the tractor alone is proble
There is a new "AR" licence class coming into effect this June which will fit your bill - it's not the full "A" licence, but a restricted version thereof. You can find details on it HERE.
You can do the road test with your current rig, and will resceive the restricted A class licence which allows you to legally drive your rigs weight. You cannot however exercise the privledges that a normal (unrestricted) A licence would have, but that seems to be something you are specifically looking to avoid, so I'll assume that's not a problem.
Check it out.
* This post was
edited 05/12/08 07:07pm by PrivatePilot *
The truck is spec'd under the 26,000lb trigger point which dictates the upgrade license. There are far heavier motohomes out there being driven by "G" licenses and pulling enclosed car hauler trailers as well, when was the last time you saw one pulled over by an MTO officer? The trailer is the problem, being over the 10,000lb GVWR limit dictating the upgrade to an 'A'. The trailer in your sig line is probably over the 10,000lb GVWR as well, remember it's not the empty weight or shipping weight but the labelled GVW (unloaded vehicle weight plus carrying capacity) on the trailer. My attempt to pull my trailer in a safer manner than using a pick-up should not result in an MTO officer spotlighting me while ignoring Motorhomes and pick-ups towing over 10,000lb trailers.
That A/R is still a COMMERCIAL license and I am very reluctant to get involved with that. I do not see the need to learn "hours of operation", "logbook keeping" etc., and be queried on these things simply so I can tow my personal use RV to a campground. The ministry needs to understand there are those of us with no desire or need to make a schedule to get the next contract or load but rather travel minimum daily miles and hours. We're out there for the enjoyment not because we need to be to earn a living. The ministry CHOOSES not to differentiate between us and our needs. A simple RV specific "non-commercial" "A" license is all that is required as in other parts of the world.
* This post was
last
edited 05/12/08 07:49pm by BruceStarkey *
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There is a new "AR" licence class coming into effect this June which will fit your bill - it's not the full "A" licence, but a restricted version thereof. You can find details on it HERE.
About Time:
On a second look what goood is the change for recreational RV'ers if all of the commercial regulations and requirements still exist to pass the test as Bruce states. It still does not address recreational drivers pulling trailers above 10,000lbs whohave no need to know the laws pertaining to commercial OTR hauling.
Bruce: I don't see how you think your legal. Please convince me with some facts.
* This post was
edited 05/12/08 08:56pm by gitane59 *
2001 Newmar Kountry Star 34BLDS 2001 Ford F350 CC SRW V10
gitane59 wrote: About Time: Hey PrivatePilot when did you find this AR information. As I said I have been intouch wiht the ministry and had recevied no information on it. I will be looking for further information as it come available.
This new class of license was brought about to remedy the problem (in Ontario) of people obtaining a full blown class AZ (tractor trailer) license by showing up for their road-test in a truck/RV combination or a truck/horse trailer combination. There was a big kerfluffle in Ontario a year or so back (some may Remember) when this reality hit the media and the glaring loophole was brought to public attention. This new AR class now allows people to legitimately get a license that fits the weight of the vehicle they are driving, yet prevents them from using that same license to jump into commercial trucking - something that some people were doing but were woefully unprepared for the realities of.
BruceStarkey wrote: There are far heavier motohomes out there being driven by "G" licenses and pulling enclosed car hauler trailers as well, when was the last time you saw one pulled over by an MTO officer?
True, but they don't attract the same attention that your MDT TV would attract. Your TV carries the commercial stigma, and without doubt it attracts more attention then someone with a MH towing something behind them.
BruceStarkey wrote: The trailer in your sig line is probably over the 10,000lb GVWR as well, remember it's not the empty weight or shipping weight but the labelled GVW (unloaded vehicle weight plus carrying capacity) on the trailer.
It is indeed, but I hold a class AZ licence myself (for work) so it's of no concern for me. If I was pulling it with a half ton most MTO officers probably wouldn't bat an eye, but pulling it with a longbox crewcab dually causes more attention. Your in a similar (even worse, actually) situation.
BruceStarkey wrote: My attempt to pull my trailer in a safer manner than using a pick-up should not result in an MTO officer spotlighting me while ignoring Motorhomes and pick-ups towing over 10,000lb trailers.
I wholeheartedly agree, but it doesn't change the laws in the end, and taking up your argument with the MTO or OPP (or even a county-mounty who knows his laws) won't get you out of the ticket, and finding someone properly licenced to come and pickup your rig from the side of the road/highway won't be fun. If you get busted they will not let you drive your rig away after you've received your ticket.
BruceStarkey wrote: That A/R is still a COMMERCIAL license and I am very reluctant to get involved with that. I do not see the need to learn "hours of operation", "logbook keeping" etc., and be queried on these things simply so I can tow my personal use RV to a campground.
Well, the short story is that if you want to be legal, you'd best unfortunately warm up to the fact that you're going to have to do it. I couldn't find any details on the website I quoted (detailing the new AR license) to see if there are logbook and inspection exemptions for people using the AR strictly for RV use, but I suspect that's a possibility.
If not, logbooks and inspection books really aren't that big of a deal - an inspection sheet takes <1minute, and logbooks aren't complicated.
It's easy to complain that in "other areas" the rules are much more lax, but IMHO anyone driving a large vehicle (be it an RV, whatever!) on public roads should be held to higher standards. Frankly, it worries me seeing people who have quite possibly never driven anything bigger then a subcompact car all their lives suddenly retire and invest in a massive Class-A, put a big enclosed trailer behind it with a few toys in it, and set out upon our roads with nothing more then their class G (passenger vehicle) license.
In many US states, you don't even need an endorsement or any training whatsoever to use airbrakes on an RV, and that too is a huge mistake in my opinionon - the people driving these setups with airbrakes really have zero understanding of how their braking system works.
Extra training, extra knowledge, and (unfortunately sometimes) the extra responsibilities that go with such generally make for safer roads.
Gitane: I'm legally licensed driving the truck with a "G" "Z". the proof is on the back of your license in very small print. Vehicle 11,000 Kg's,
When I hook to the trailer however, which is over the stated 4,600Kg on the back of the same license, I'm over the max allowed (way over) but so is everyone else out there towing a trailer with a GVWR over 10,000lbs.
I never claimed I was legal when towing inthese forums and will not attempt to now but neither is anyone else towing a 10,000lb trailer with a "G" license.
The MTO officer who ticketed me while travelling bobtail did so for lack of a CVOR and even went so far as to complement me on the fact I had addressed the Tow Vehicle safety aspect and also said she would not have stopped me if I had been hooked to the trailer. That is just plain nuts in my mind. Their prioities are skewed to waiving the requirement for a "A" license because the trailer might be an RV and for now they're letting it slide as does the post from PrivatePilot suggest that I'm attracting attention by using a "bigger" truck but something like a motorhome with a GVWR of over the 11,000Kg's towing a trailer over 4,600Kg's shall be ignored.
Now onto the traffic stop thingy. I easily can anticipate the time when I will be pulled over and required to provide a license, The trucks stickered from factory GVWR is under the 11,000KG's so my license is fine for that now when that event happens the LEO will be making a decision that I don't have the required license based solely on the weight of the trailer being over 10,000lbs so I will deal with that in the very unlikely event that it ever happens given the Kajillions of RV trailers & motorhomes over 4,600/11,000Kg's being summarily ignored at this time!
As to the need for special knowledge required to tow something as heavy as an RV with a truck slightly heavier than a F550, I agree to the extent that special knowledge does not come with a license and that can be verified by simply watching & listening to SOME of the professional OTR drivers behaviour on the highways today.
I am simply stating that I will suck it up and get an "A" license when everyone else towing over 10,000lb GVWR RV trailers is required to do so. I am already licensed correctly for the truck itself as verified by many DMV/MTO officers.
gitane59 wrote: Privatepilot thats the weblinks I'm also looking at as well. Have a look at this though, with repsec tot registered truck weight on how to calculate the weight we must register our trucks for carefully and you will read that we must add the totoal trailer and truck weights together to get our truck registered weight if our trialers are over 288kgs Determining registerd gross weights
cheers
If you have the "personal use" exemption the website seems to indicate the opposite - trailer weight need not be included in the GVWR.
The way I understand it, even with the personal use exemption, the trailer PIN weight MUST be included in the RGW (registrered gross weight) to determine the licence plate fees ONLY.
Also, after speaking to the person at my local licencing office and the Ford dealer, they both confirm that NO Super Duty trucks are issued with a "personal use Only" stickers because of the vehicle's base weight of 3000kg. But there is the definition of a "personal use pickup" written into the MTO regulations if you carefully read the "Daily Inspection and Maintenance requirements". I must admit it is very confusing to say the least.
* This post was
edited 05/13/08 12:34pm by gorjo01 *
BruceStarkey wrote: that special knowledge does not come with a license and that can be verified by simply watching & listening to SOME of the professional OTR drivers behaviour on the highways today
One can have skill yet fail to exhibit or utilize it. I'll agree that many of the OTR drivers fall into that category.
That said, in Ontario, if you go through any sort of reputable training school to obtain your AZ licence, you'll come out better educated. How much or little of this skill and professionalism you decide to utilize after the fact is one thing, but having the skills remains none the less.
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