davelinde wrote: In the years I've spent here I've learned a lot about how to calculate the weights when you tow.
Seems you learned nothing and wasted a lot of years.
I suggest you have the trailer weighed before purchase. You're dealing with hypothetical weights at this point. I have yet to see a trailer weigh what the brochure says or the pin at the brochure weight.
You're going to be over GVWR and GCVWR for a 2500. The truck was designed for the weight limits set by GM. Forget Axle weights, that for tickets. The truck was not designed to max out axle weights..
You're going to been a bigger truck, unless of course you have no care for the safety of your family and passengers. No reason to cheap out when safety is a concern.
I wanted a GMC real bad, but after playing the numbers it just wasn't in the cards. Their carrying capacity is poor. Their stated truck weights are way off.
Exceed the sticker weight limits and you could lose the warranty on your truck if any left(I'll leave out any legal ramifications any 1st year lawyer could bring forward).
Base your weights on your axles limits because you think those are the numbers that count and you could have any number of component failures on your truck. Axles are a generic product made for many different vehicles, that does not mean they could be loaded to the max.
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davelinde wrote: In the years I've spent here I've learned a lot about how to calculate the weights when you tow.
Seems you learned nothing and wasted a lot of years.
I suggest you have the trailer weighed before purchase. You're dealing with hypothetical weights at this point. I have yet to see a trailer weigh what the brochure says or the pin at the brochure weight.
You're going to be over GVWR and GCVWR for a 2500. The truck was designed for the weight limits set by GM. Forget Axle weights, that for tickets. The truck was not designed to max out axle weights..
You're going to been a bigger truck, unless of course you have no care for the safety of your family and passengers. No reason to cheap out when safety is a concern.
I wanted a GMC real bad, but after playing the numbers it just wasn't in the cards. Their carrying capacity is poor. Their stated truck weights are way off.
Exceed the sticker weight limits and you could lose the warranty on your truck if any left(I'll leave out any legal ramifications any 1st year lawyer could bring forward).
Base your weights on your axles limits because you think those are the numbers that count and you could have any number of component failures on your truck. Axles are a generic product made for many different vehicles, that does not mean they could be loaded to the max.
Seems you haven't learned to actually read before putting in your 2 cents. The rig has already been weighed.
From the OP:
As promised... here's what it turned out to be when I picked it up.
"spec dry" 10,900#
First time to the scale 12,660#
Difference attributed to generator, 35 gallons fresh water, 12 gallons gasoline, 60# propane, luggage for 5 people, basic tools (which for me is about 100#)
Pin 2720# = 21.5%
Rear axle = 6000# under the tire limit of 6380# btw
I put 20# of air in the Firestones and she squatted 2" just like she did under the 1500# pin. I just finished the 650 mile ride home and she rode just dandy. Now... the transmission heated up quite a bit -- but that's another issue.
(yes, I realized I have no margin for cargo... we'll figure that out after we figure out what to do with the trans)
* This post was
edited 07/15/08 06:33am by jmramiller *
2006 2500HD CC SB 4X4 Duramax/Allison
Prodigy/16K Reese/265E Tires/Bilstein Shocks
RM Active Suspension/RDS 60gal Toolbox combo
You're going to be over GVWR and GCVWR for a 2500. The truck was designed for the weight limits set by GM. Forget Axle weights, that for tickets. The truck was not designed to max out axle weights..
(snip)
Base your weights on your axles limits because you think those are the numbers that count and you could have any number of component failures on your truck. Axles are a generic product made for many different vehicles, that does not mean they could be loaded to the max.
"forget axle weights" ....... on the contrary. GM as Dodge and Ford rates their trucks right up to max axle loads. Axles may be a generic product but GM expects them to be loaded to the max. Holy cow, our commercial haulers that haul legally per FMCSA haul per max axle eights/tire caps set by the truck manufactor. My Dodge dealer uses max GAWRs for warranty work. Nothing new about that as its been that way even before the late '50s that I've used thse trucks. GVWR in many states can be registered to a higher number. GCWR can be changed by changing axle ratio/etc. That's why LEO weighs per GAWR/tire caps.
The OP is hauling max axle/tire cap loads and will be legal in any state. Anybody that's has ever been weighed for overloading will tell you RAWR/FAWR/tire caps is how the rig is weighed. Most of the time a pickup front axle is never checked if the rear is under RAWR. Yeah I know not many RVer get weighed. LEO just isn't interested in weighing a RV unless it looks grossly overloaded.
I would suggest you contact your DPS and get their input on how GVWR is enforced and even if your state has a uprate GVWR program.
JIM
'03 2500 Dodge/Cummins HO 3.73 6 speed manual Jacobs
'97 Park Avanue 28' with two slides
"forget axle weights" ....... on the contrary. GM as Dodge and Ford rates their trucks right up to max axle loads.
Just not true. My Ford is total combined axle weights is 13K. The truck is rated for 11,400lbs, by Ford..
Quote: Axles may be a generic product but GM expects them to be loaded to the max.
GM is rated, by GM even lower then the Fords.
Quote: My Dodge dealer uses max GAWRs for warranty work. Nothing new about that as its been that way even before the late '50s that I've used thse trucks.
That's your dealer and you're lucky. With current times and the problems with the current crop of diesel engines, there is no shortage of denied warranty claims from any of the big 3. Ford tried to deny my warranty , merely saying that I changed my own oil and used the wrong oil. No tests , no proof, no nothing. I then produced receipts on all my oil purchases/filters from Ford.
Get Towed in with a broken truck and triple axle 5th wheel that is overweight for the rating of the truck and there is a good chance that they will try to deny the warranty. They can merely say you overloaded the truck and you warranty is void. You can jump up and down all you want and say the 2500 is the same as the 3500 or I changed this or I changed that. They will point to sticker and say you exceeded any of the numbers and they are off the hook.
"forget axle weights" ....... on the contrary. GM as Dodge and Ford rates their trucks right up to max axle loads.
Just not true. My Ford is total combined axle weights is 13K. The truck is rated for 11,400lbs, by Ford..
its very true. Just look at Ford/GM/Dodge truck webs and their truck weights brochures. Straight from the '07 Chev trailering guide "addition of trailer king pin cannot cause vehicle weights to exceed Rear Axle Gross Weight (RGAWR)". No one said anything about combined GAWRs just RAWR and FAWR.
As far as FORD goes they more than Dodge or GM know our commercial haulers use RAWR/FAWR/tire caps as they are number one in HD truck sales with those folks. RVers using these trucks are but a drop in the bucket. I doubt any truck manufactor will void a warranty or not warranty a vehicle that the load was under RAWR/FAWR/tire caps. Now we get into out of warranty situations and this is where you need to know how your state uses GVWR and RAWR/FAWR with matched tire caps on our under 10k/over 10k trucks (real legal issues).
creeper wrote: Exceed the sticker weight limits and you could lose the warranty on your truck if any left
Base your weights on your axles limits because you think those are the numbers that count and you could have any number of component failures on your truck.
I only have my Cummins 100K warranty left the rest is on me now.
Which component are subject to failure?
Tires, yes looking into that.
Frame, yes will keep an eye on that.
Trans, yes looking into that.
Anything else I should be concerned about? BTW - much if this applies even if I trade for a dually so I'm not seeing a "no brainer" solution to this one yet.
Dave Lindemulder
Tammy, Mark & Kirsten
04 Dodge 2500 4x4 SLT QC/SB
HO-CTD/48RE - Graphite: Raptor SS nerfs, Prodigy, Reese 16K Kwik-slide, BD X-Monitor, PML Trans pan, PML Diff cover, Firestone Airbags
09 Heartland Cylcone 3210
Best way to do what you want (keep your current truck and haul a big trailer) safely is to start by: 1) Rickson wheels and 19.5 real truck tires. 2) Rear suspension upgrade (bags, supersprings, extra leaves, whatever. 3) Better shocks (Bilsteins, etc. 4) Tuff country traction bars (will work on 2500, not 3500 SRW. These help prevent axle wrap under high torque loads, particularly with a manual tranny. 5) Additional braking. Exhaust brake and upgraded rear pads (rated FF at least, FG or GG would be better). 6) If you have an auto tranny, extra tranny cooling would be a must IMHO. 7) Be sure your 5th wheel hitch is rated for the heavy pin wt. and that it mounts directly to the frame. On my '06 Dodge CTD, I'd never trust a bed mounted hitch after looking at the way the bed is attached to the frame.
Your truck will handle that trailer, IMHO. Mine handles my Next Level 38cks, 3 axle toyhauler thats actually 39'10" w/ a gvw of 16950 just fine, in fact better than fine. Yours isn't that much heavier, particularly if you aren't going to be loading it up. I bought an uprated 12K registration for the truck as well, so it is entrely legal. (May need to take that to 13K if I get an auxilary, in-bed fuel tank.)
There are those (obviously) who will disagree. They'll say a modded truck is not up to the job, even as no pickup that is NOT modded could haul a 5th wheel trailer at all! (Hard to hook 'em up w/o an aftermarket hitch, right?) Mostly they will mention supposedly inadequate braking. I think it "cuts some cake," so to speak, that you w/ have a 3 axle trailer and 6 sets of brakes as compared to many, many supposedly "aok" rigs that are nearly as heavy that only have 2 axle trailer braking. On 5200 lb axles, (typical under 3 axle toyhaulers) the trailer brakes are 12x2. On 8000 lb axles, which larger trailers running tandem axles usually have, the trailer brakes are 12x2. 6 of these brakes are obviously better than 4.
The exhaust brake (mine's a PacBrake PRXB) does a great job of keeping downhill speeds under control. My rig, grossing 23,500# or so will drop off Mt. Ashland, OR on I-5 going north at between 50 and 55 mph w/o touching a brake in direct gear. It will climb that same mountain faster than that, having to back out of it to make the turns.
The mods I suggest for your truck aren't cheap, and they won't change the sticker that lists your weights, including the language "...when equipped with 265/70R17E tires" or whatever size your oem installed on your truck. Since you will no longer have those tires, those numbers no longer apply to anything, except perhaps your warranty IMHO.
What the above mods will do, (I have all of the above and more) is let your truck safely handle the load you intend to transport with it. It might not meet some of the oem's criteria for acceleration w/o a chip of some sort, but that can be added as well, although again, your warranty would probably suffer.
Oh yeah, PA 12DRVR asked what one would say when confronted with the question: "Why did you not comply with the published GVWR and GCVWR data..."
I think I'd welcome that question. The answer is: Because the truck is no longer configured the way it was when it left the factory. This part was upgraded to this. This part was upgraded to this. This part needed no upgrades as it is rated at this by the people who actually build it and supply it to GM/Ford/Chrysler. This system was dramtically improved by the addition of this, which is similar to the systems used on over the road big rigs.
Further, because the sticker says on its face that these are the applicable numbers when the vehicle is equipped with the oem tires, which by the way, are rated at exactly half of the oems rated rear axle capacity. Further, because I researched the applicable laws and the various components of my vehicle and found that by law, the factory cannot rate the rear axle more highly than twice the rating of the oem installed tires DOT rating. If not for that, it's likely they would have applied a higher rating, as the same oem uses the identical axle in other applications and does exactly that. Also one has to consider it's actual manufacturer rates that identical axle at nearly 45% more than does the vehicle assembler per he door sticker.
One of the things they supposedly teach in law school is "Don't ask a question where you, as the questioner, don't know what the answer will be." Personally, if it were me, I'd hope the opposition would build their entire case on the fact that I was supposedly overloaded because I believe I could prove that I wasn't.
My final comments would be that I am a professional truck driver and have driven multi-millions of miles accident free and without citation. I hold a class A CDL and have for more than 35 years, and have driven most every combination of vehicles imaginable through virtually every kind of weather except a tornado.
I can tell when my equipment is overloaded by the way it handles, and this combination handles very well. Further, I have driven this combination over state scales, requested to be and was inspected and found to be 100% within the legal limits.
Even further, my state registered the vehicle for more than the weight I was carrying and I'm sure they wouldn't have done that if it were unsafe to do so.
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