BenK wrote: Just confirms my thoughts that too many buy pickups/SUVs/etc as a
fashion statement, than needing one.
If a Civic will do, then why did they buy a pickup/SUV?
Maybe some sanity will come back to Pickup/SUV ownership and the
pricing that goes with that sanity.
I agree with you Ben in regards that too many buy/have bought pickups/SUVs as a fashion statement, rather than needing one.
My own personal theory is that many over the years, particularly since the availability of a wide range of full size, V8 cars have diminished significantly over the years , many have bought V8 Pickups and Suv's as a alternate substitution.
I believe that is one reason for the fact that the full size pickup, up to very recently has been the most popular vehicle in sales. Pickups, unlike the pickups of yore that have more comfort and luxury options available then many cars....and of course that V8 engine.
Now I know some might respond and say Chrysler has the 300c, Dodge the magnum, Chevy the Impala SS, etc.....all with V8's. While that is true, the numbers sold of these V8 cars, pales in comparison with the way it was back in the '50's, 60's and early '70's....when the V8, full size car reigned supreme and the pickup...was just a vehicle, mostly for the farm, ranch or commercial use.
I think that now fuel prices are very high, many people have had to look at their vehicle buying priorities....ie as the car show guy says....do I need a V8 pickup/Suv......no....do I want a V8 Pickup/SUV.....yes.....can I afford a V8 Pickup/SUV.....so off to the dealer and buy a Civic which apparently fills the bill for most people, while saving considerably on the gas budget.
Having said that, there are a # of people who do need a diesel-gas V8 (or Cummins) Pickup/SUV that tow with it, have very large families. But then they do need it.
Also, I know the appeal of having a healthy V8....having had more than a few of small block chevy V8's and small block Ford V8's in my vehicles of the past.
BenK wrote: Just confirms my thoughts that too many buy pickups/SUVs/etc as a
fashion statement, than needing one.
If a Civic will do, then why did they buy a pickup/SUV?
Maybe some sanity will come back to Pickup/SUV ownership and the
pricing that goes with that sanity.
I agree with you Ben in regards that too many buy/have bought pickups/SUVs as a fashion statement, rather than needing one.
My own personal theory is that many over the years, particularly since the availability of a wide range of full size, V8 cars have diminished significantly over the years , many have bought V8 Pickups and Suv's as a alternate substitution.
I believe that is one reason for the fact that the full size pickup, up to very recently has been the most popular vehicle in sales. Pickups, unlike the pickups of yore that have more comfort and luxury options available then many cars....and of course that V8 engine.
Now I know some might respond and say Chrysler has the 300c, Dodge the magnum, Chevy the Impala SS, etc.....all with V8's. While that is true, the numbers sold of these V8 cars, pales in comparison with the way it was back in the '50's, 60's and early '70's....when the V8, full size car reigned supreme and the pickup...was just a vehicle, mostly for the farm, ranch or commercial use.
I think that now fuel prices are very high, many people have had to look at their vehicle buying priorities....ie as the car show guy says....do I need a V8 pickup/Suv......no....do I want a V8 Pickup/SUV.....yes.....can I afford a V8 Pickup/SUV.....so off to the dealer and buy a Civic which apparently fills the bill for most people, while saving considerably on the gas budget.
Having said that, there are a # of people who do need a diesel-gas V8 (or Cummins) Pickup/SUV that tow with it, have very large families. But then they do need it.
Also, I know the appeal of having a healthy V8....having had more than a few of small block chevy V8's and small block Ford V8's in my vehicles of the past.
Maybe that's just 'uncommon' sense though.
Les
A definite trend I have noticed are large pickup trucks being advertised by dealers in their used car section. A local Ford dealer has the following today:
04- F250 4x4 diesel LIFTED with custom wheels (less than 15K miles) offroad tires etc., another - 06 F250 diesel LIFTED with MOTO (very expensive) wheels, 37" tires, and one more - '06 F250 diesel LIFTED custom wheels, etc. I am looking at pictures and these are all very nice rigs that have never seen any freight in their bed. I am in a pretty high-end area of So. Cal and I bet is these were all "fashion statement" vehicles. Now that diesel is $5.00 plus bucks a gallon my bet is they are being traded in more something that is a lot smaller.
Of course, the dealer still has "pie in the sky" prices on them. What else is new......
BenK wrote: Just confirms my thoughts that too many buy pickups/SUVs/etc as a
fashion statement, than needing one.
If a Civic will do, then why did they buy a pickup/SUV?
Maybe some sanity will come back to Pickup/SUV ownership and the
pricing that goes with that sanity.
I agree with you Ben in regards that too many buy/have bought pickups/SUVs as a fashion statement, rather than needing one.
My own personal theory is that many over the years, particularly since the availability of a wide range of full size, V8 cars have diminished significantly over the years , many have bought V8 Pickups and Suv's as a alternate substitution.
I believe that is one reason for the fact that the full size pickup, up to very recently has been the most popular vehicle in sales. Pickups, unlike the pickups of yore that have more comfort and luxury options available then many cars....and of course that V8 engine.
Now I know some might respond and say Chrysler has the 300c, Dodge the magnum, Chevy the Impala SS, etc.....all with V8's. While that is true, the numbers sold of these V8 cars, pales in comparison with the way it was back in the '50's, 60's and early '70's....when the V8, full size car reigned supreme and the pickup...was just a vehicle, mostly for the farm, ranch or commercial use.
I think that now fuel prices are very high, many people have had to look at their vehicle buying priorities....ie as the car show guy says....do I need a V8 pickup/Suv......no....do I want a V8 Pickup/SUV.....yes.....can I afford a V8 Pickup/SUV.....so off to the dealer and buy a Civic which apparently fills the bill for most people, while saving considerably on the gas budget.
Having said that, there are a # of people who do need a diesel-gas V8 (or Cummins) Pickup/SUV that tow with it, have very large families. But then they do need it.
Also, I know the appeal of having a healthy V8....having had more than a few of small block chevy V8's and small block Ford V8's in my vehicles of the past.
Maybe that's just 'uncommon' sense though.
Les
A definite trend I have noticed are large pickup trucks being advertised by dealers in their used car section. A local Ford dealer has the following today:
04- F250 4x4 diesel LIFTED with custom wheels (less than 15K miles) offroad tires etc., another - 06 F250 diesel LIFTED with MOTO (very expensive) wheels, 37" tires, and one more - '06 F250 diesel LIFTED custom wheels, etc. I am looking at pictures and these are all very nice rigs that have never seen any freight in their bed. One really wouldn't need to lift a truck for most commercial use purposes. I am in a pretty high-end area of So. Cal and I bet is these were all "fashion statement" vehicles. Now that diesel is $5.00 plus bucks a gallon my bet is they are being traded in more something that is a lot smaller.
Of course, the dealer still has "pie in the sky" prices on them. What else is new......
BenK wrote: Just confirms my thoughts that too many buy pickups/SUVs/etc as a
fashion statement, than needing one.
If a Civic will do, then why did they buy a pickup/SUV?
Maybe some sanity will come back to Pickup/SUV ownership and the
pricing that goes with that sanity.
If we all only bought what we needed then this website would be a very lonely place as very few of us need a RV.
Hind site is 20/20. If I could go back in time I would do what someone already suggested...I would have a large MH with a civic toad. The only time I would take the fuel hit is when I was using the RV. But that did not make sense at the time. Which brings us to the present. I do not drive enough to justify parking the truck and buying little car and the hit I would take trading the truck and 5er would pay for many years of fuel. So the sane thing to do is to hold - not fold like so many others are suggesting.
The other thing that seems clear (maybe clear as mud) is that the current prices are what they are because of speculative investors. Most experts agree that this can not be sustained indefinitely. That just like the internet stocks and the housing market crude prices will fall. How long will this take? Yet to be seen. Regardless what happens I am willing to bet that given my circumstances I am much better off holding onto what I have until it is worn out than trying to buy into another hand.
2006 2500HD CC SB 4X4 Duramax/Allison
Prodigy/16K Reese/265E Tires/Bilstein Shocks
RM Active Suspension/RDS 60gal Toolbox combo
Speculation is a large factor in high oil prices, but also another significant factor is third world countries such as India and China are developing robust economies at an astounding rate and economically are very strong. More Chinese and Indian individuals are doing very well, financially and are buying cars and the demand for fuel in these countries is going through the roof.
The most populous countries in the World are China and India and with their very strong economies, they want oil, like we do and they're buying it at ever increasing amounts.
So, if it was just speculators I would agree, fuel prices would eventually plunge, but it is also vastly increasing demand for a product and therefore I can't see fuel costs go down, but continue to rise, due to increased demand.
We need to look at alternate power....as of late, I've become more interested in electric and hydrogen power.
lesmore49 wrote: Speculation is a large factor in high oil prices, but also another significant factor is third world countries such as India and China are developing robust economies at an astounding rate and economically are very strong. More Chinese and Indian individuals are doing very well, financially and are buying cars and the demand for fuel in these countries is going through the roof.
The most populous countries in the World are China and India and with their very strong economies, they want oil, like we do and they're buying it at ever increasing amounts.
So, if it was just speculators I would agree, fuel prices would eventually plunge, but it is also vastly increasing demand for a product and therefore I can't see fuel costs go down, but continue to rise, due to increased demand.
We need to look at alternate power....as of late, I've become more interested in electric and hydrogen power.
You are forgetting a very important part of the equation. The countries you mentioned up until now have been subsidizing the cost of fuel for their citizens which means they pay a fraction of the cost of fuel that we do. This will end soon as many countries who currently subsidize have stated that due to the drastic increases in fuel cost they will discontinue this practice (a link was provided by a poster recently on another thread). That means that these people will be paying the same that we pay which will drastically cut their consumption.
Historically increases due to speculative investing have been short lived and there is nothing to suggest that this will be any different.
The other factor is this; there is no shortage of oil. New ways to extract oil are being developed everyday. Currently the production cost of a barrel of oil in the US is around $50.00. Extracting oil from shale cost around $70.00 a barrel. As long as the speculators are paying the price that they are currently paying for oil new wells will be tapped and old wells will be restarted. Production will continue to increase until just like the housing market there will be such a surplus that prices will began to drop significantly. Eventually we will return to a market that is driven in the same manner that it was prior to the speculators driving up the price. At that time the market price for oil was the cost of production of the last barrel of the day which means oil should be going for about an average of $60 a barrel.
* This post was
edited 06/14/08 08:16pm by jmramiller *
lesmore49 wrote: Speculation is a large factor in high oil prices, but also another significant factor is third world countries such as India and China are developing robust economies at an astounding rate and economically are very strong. More Chinese and Indian individuals are doing very well, financially and are buying cars and the demand for fuel in these countries is going through the roof.
The most populous countries in the World are China and India and with their very strong economies, they want oil, like we do and they're buying it at ever increasing amounts.
So, if it was just speculators I would agree, fuel prices would eventually plunge, but it is also vastly increasing demand for a product and therefore I can't see fuel costs go down, but continue to rise, due to increased demand.
We need to look at alternate power....as of late, I've become more interested in electric and hydrogen power.
You are forgetting a very important part of the equation. The countries you mentioned up until now have been subsidizing the cost of fuel for their citizens which means they pay a fraction of the cost of fuel that we do. This will end soon as many countries who currently subsidize have stated that due to the drastic increases in fuel cost they will discontinue this practice (a link was provided by a poster recently on another thread). That means that these people will be paying the same that we pay which will drastically cut their consumption. The G8 countries met last week and are concerned about third world countries subsidizing the cost of fuel and G8 want them to stop this practice. Will they do it? I hope so, but I haven't seen anything happen, except for some news articles speculating. If it happens I'll be happy, as will others...but at this point, I'm waiting to see what happens.
Historically increases due to speculative investing have been short lived and there is nothing to suggest that this will be any different.
The other factor is this; there is no shortage of oil. New ways to extract oil are being developed everyday. Currently the production cost of a barrel of oil in the US is around $50.00. Extracting oil from shale cost around $70.00 a barrel. As long as the speculators are paying the price that they are currently paying for oil new wells will be tapped and old wells will be restarted. Production will continue to increase until just like the housing market there will be such a surplus that prices will began to drop significantly. Eventually we will return to a market that is driven in the same manner that it was prior to the speculators driving up the price. At that time the market price for oil was the cost of production of the last barrel of the day which means oil should be going for about an average of $60 a barrel.
I've posted a number of news articles about the the number of huge oil fields that have huge resources and are just in process of getting this product out of the fields and into the market. The Bakken fields, in North Dakota, Montana, Saskatchewan (biggest chunk here) and Manitoba.
Brazil is another place. Yes, there is no shortage of oil. I agree and have for quite awhile.
lesmore49 wrote: Speculation is a large factor in high oil prices, but also another significant factor is third world countries such as India and China are developing robust economies at an astounding rate and economically are very strong. More Chinese and Indian individuals are doing very well, financially and are buying cars and the demand for fuel in these countries is going through the roof.
The most populous countries in the World are China and India and with their very strong economies, they want oil, like we do and they're buying it at ever increasing amounts.
So, if it was just speculators I would agree, fuel prices would eventually plunge, but it is also vastly increasing demand for a product and therefore I can't see fuel costs go down, but continue to rise, due to increased demand.
We need to look at alternate power....as of late, I've become more interested in electric and hydrogen power.
You are forgetting a very important part of the equation. The countries you mentioned up until now have been subsidizing the cost of fuel for their citizens which means they pay a fraction of the cost of fuel that we do. This will end soon as many countries who currently subsidize have stated that due to the drastic increases in fuel cost they will discontinue this practice (a link was provided by a poster recently on another thread). That means that these people will be paying the same that we pay which will drastically cut their consumption. The G8 countries met last week and are concerned about third world countries subsidizing the cost of fuel and G8 want them to stop this practice. Will they do it? I hope so, but I haven't seen anything happen, except for some news articles speculating. If it happens I'll be happy, as will others...but at this point, I'm waiting to see what happens.
Historically increases due to speculative investing have been short lived and there is nothing to suggest that this will be any different.
The other factor is this; there is no shortage of oil. New ways to extract oil are being developed everyday. Currently the production cost of a barrel of oil in the US is around $50.00. Extracting oil from shale cost around $70.00 a barrel. As long as the speculators are paying the price that they are currently paying for oil new wells will be tapped and old wells will be restarted. Production will continue to increase until just like the housing market there will be such a surplus that prices will began to drop significantly. Eventually we will return to a market that is driven in the same manner that it was prior to the speculators driving up the price. At that time the market price for oil was the cost of production of the last barrel of the day which means oil should be going for about an average of $60 a barrel.
I've posted a number of news articles about the the number of huge oil fields that have huge resources and are just in process of getting this product out of the fields and into the market. The Bakken fields, in North Dakota, Montana, Saskatchewan (biggest chunk here) and Manitoba.
Brazil is another place. Yes, there is no shortage of oil. I agree and have for quite awhile.
Les
So, we agree that significantly more oil will be made available. If this is the case and consumption does not increase (we know through new car sales that the US consumption is on the decline) then oil prices will be forced lower. The only variable here is if these other countries increase consumption at a greater rate than the increased production we are anticipating. If these countries stop subsidizing I think the answer to that variable is very obvious. Of course OPEC could reduce production to keep status quo but in the end that would cost them a lot of money.
This is a bit off the topic of the OP's original post. so with that........sorry guys, at least you all are being considerate etc, but posts are a bit off topic.
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