sushidog wrote: If you wanted to stick with a 4cyl, I'd go with a Subie Forester. It's one of the best rated small SUVs. It might be a little more expensive to operate than the Jetta, but it's a much more suitable TV with it's 2,400lb tow rating. The 170hp version will give about the same towing mileage as the v-6 Rav-4, but the hp/wt ratio isn't as good. It's still much better than the Jetta's 105 hp engine, which incidentally has dropped to only 90hp on the newer models due to restrictive emission controls.
Also a great recommendation, but as a Subie fanatic I have to add a few points.
2400 pounds is the de-rated American tow rating. Elsewhere in the world Foresters are rated for 3000-4000 pounds, and win awards towing those weights.
The 170 HP Forester, mated to a manual transmission, will surprise a lot of people with it's "fun to drive" factor. Don't underestimate it unless you decide to neuter it with an automatic trans.
My Forester averages 28mpg mixed driving, tickles 30mpg on long trips, and has never dropped below 23mpg even when pulling 3500 pounds worth of antique popup. (Incidentally it accomplishes this easily in 5th gear with the air on and a family of four on board, no strain whatsoever)
'04 Ford Freestar (Primary tow vehicle) '05 Subaru Forester (Backup tow vehicle) '65 Bethany popup (best popups ever made!) Looking for a tow vehicle Minivan towing
Pete D wrote: What is "possible" to tow may not be reasonable and prudent to tow if you are involved in an accident with fatalities regardless of who initially caused the accident.
Be sure you know what chances you are taking with your home and personal freedom by towing beyond the manufacturer's recommended limits. The civil and criminal juries may not be impressed with the Euro/AU limits.
Please stop posting this scare-tactic propaganda until you can provide some evidence to it's validity. This topic has been discussed TO DEATH on this forum several times, and even involved law enforcement on a few occasions. At the end of the day the results are always the same, the OEM tow ratings is just a number printed in a book. It is in no way based in law, nor can it be referenced in any criminal charges.
As for insurance, well they have to pay for stupid, like it or not. Worst thing that can happen is they may choose to not renew your policy, but they still have to pay. No different than running a red light and causing an accident really.
sushidog wrote: If diesel fuel costs 15-20% more you will have to get 15-20% more MPG just to break even. This is not to say you won't, it's just that the difference in fuel cost needs to be factored in too.
You might be better off with a vehicle like the v6 Toyota Rav-4 with it's 3,500lb tow rating. They are rated at 27mpg on the highway and are reported to get around 20mpg towing a PUP on the forums. They burn regular gas making the equivalent fuel cost/mile equal to a diesel getting 23-25mpg towing. Plus, the Rav-4 is much more fun to drive, with a very high hp/wt ratio.
If you wanted to stick with a 4cyl, I'd go with a Subie Forester. It's one of the best rated small SUVs. It might be a little more expensive to operate than the Jetta, but it's a much more suitable TV with it's 2,400lb tow rating. The 170hp version will give about the same towing mileage as the v-6 Rav-4, but the hp/wt ratio isn't as good. It's still much better than the Jetta's 105 hp engine, which incidentally has dropped to only 90hp on the newer models due to restrictive emission controls.
Good post.
68 Me & DW
93 DD
03 DD
06 F150 Screw 6.5' Bed, 4x4, 5.4, 3.73
04 Tahoe 23RB-GL Honda EU2000 Parallel Cables "I hope you like Guinness, Sir. I find it a refreshing substitute for...food." Col. Jack O'Neill, Stargate SG-1.
Any time weights over the manufacturer's recommendations are exceeded the owner should realize they may be compromising safety.
It's no longer a case of throwing on a hitch and towing fat, dumb, and happy down the road.
It takes homework and study to determine what additional work, parts are required for an over weight combination to be safely towed.
Places like Can-Am R and it's spokes person Andy Thompson have for years sold what look like outrageous combinations. BUT they go through hundreds of hours in some cases figuring if the base vehicle has the power, and structural integrity to tow and if any replacement parts are required to meet the added strain towing the weight places on the vehicle.
So my best recommendation would be to contact an expert such as Andy or be prepared to do a LOT of homework/study before exceeding any listed limit.
As to the legality, as Caddy posted, this has been done to death in several of our forums, not to mention other RV and towing forums. Insurance covers stupid, and we've never found an actual, (non third person account), case where an individual was held responsible for an overweight condition of an RV and held libel.
Just within a few blocks of my house, I know of three people towing P/Us with VW diesels. 2 Jettas and one older Passat. They are towing 8-10 footers, and I have seen several at campgrounds over the years as well.
I had been towing with a 150hp Freelander for years, which is pretty much the same size as a Golf, but with bigger wheels. If anything the responsiveness, handling and braking of a European TV just has to be experinced before anyone can comment on it as being "stupid". On my Freelander, I was running within North American specs, and I have never had the same planted and connected feeling towing with an American or Japanese vehicle. There is no "slop" in the steering or suspension, and the precision that you can drive with has to be felt to be understood.
For myself, I doubt that a 12 footer would yeild a very satisfying driving experience, regardless of what everyone tells you about European ratings. I think that an 8 foot box would be easily doable with caerful packing, 10 foot, pushing it. Also remember in Europe you are limited to 80km/h. Try that on the 401.
PS: Diesel is the same price as premium in Canada, not 20% more as suggested by the un-informed.
Just a quick thanks to all who have posted. Lots of very useful (for and against) info here.
Also - Thanks for the suggestions on getting a different TV, but I have a second choice already - the Astro - which is an awesome TV. I am sure that there are better TV's than the Asto, but it still rocks.
I guess that over the summer I may do some more researching and careful investigations on my own. I will start with checking the actual weight of our camper at one of the local scales. There is a CAT scale just down the road from us. I think that knowing the actual weight is probably the best place to start.
A WD hitch does sound like a good idea. Also, as the trailer has good brakes (they can stop the Astro) I am not overly concerned about the stopping power.
I usually tow at 90KMPH so 80 is not a big drop at all.
As the Jetta is the 90HP TD not the 110HP TDI, I am feeling that it may be a bit on the small size...
Sorry, I didn't realize you were in Canada where the price of diesel now averages only 6% higher than regular gas (according to Internet sources.)
I wonder why us Yanks must pay such a premium price for our diesel? Where I live in Louisiana (as of this morning) the closest gas station by my house sell diesel fuel for $4.79/gal while regular gas is only $3.89 - a 23% difference! I just paid $4.19/gal this morning for 93 octane premium at the same station. What is diesel selling for in Canada now compared to the US (in US dollars per US gallon)?
fingaluna wrote: the Astro - which is an awesome TV. I am sure that there are better TV's than the Asto, but it still rocks.
Again, as a former owner and someone who can compare apples to apples, the Astro is not an awesome tow vehicle. It's not bad, but it ain't great either. It's biggest downfall is the sloppy handling and loose steering they all suffer from, and the undersized brakes don't help any either. You can somewhat mitigate the sloppy handling with premium tires (either LT tires or performance tires with low profile sidewall)
Not only did I pull our current Bethany with our Astro, I also pulled a 20' travel trailer for 3 seasons as well. The trailer was 4500 pounds loaded for travel, and my 95 2wd HO 4.3 was rated at 5800 pounds towing. Yes, I managed and I think I was safe in my setup. But I can honestly say that I've driven better tow vehicles (some with lower tow ratings) AND I do not miss my Astro one bit.
I've got nothing to sell here, so my opinion is pretty straight forward. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find out the VW ends up being your primary choice for towing, assuming you take the time to set it up correctly and don't cut corners. It will out handle, out stop and possibly outpull the Astro (depends on the Astro's gearing mostly). And by outpull I don't mean faster acceleration, I mean torqueing up a grade without straining. I think you will be surprised.
I think Fast Mopar was referring to me, if you are looking for someone who uses a Jetta as a TV. As the sig says, ours is an '02 1.8T (turbo-gas) 5-spd. and we just love it as our primary TV. I have a standard Class 1 Hidden Hitch, and no other custom hitch modifications, and no trailer brakes. Mind you, our 8-footer is pretty diminuitive in comparison to what you wish to haul, and as good as my setup is, I would be very wary of attempting to haul anything heavier than a 10 or 12 footer, without consulting a professional custom hitch maker.
Our (turbo-gas) Jetta has all the torque we have needed to haul in hilly, and semi-mountainous terrain. If you've ever been out East and around the Cabot Trail, you'll know what I mean. The only thing that would make our setup even better is trailer brakes - which didn't come with the relatively lightweight popup, but would almost certainly be required for a 10 or 12 footer.
And as an aside, I would LOVE to see Andy Thompson's setup with the Jetta and Airstream combination. I read his article and that setup looks oh so sweet!! If anyone has any pictures of it or his custom fitted hitch for Jettas, I would appreciate it very much.
Dave and Nancy(and 1 camping pooch)
1995 Coleman Cedar 8'
2002 VW Jetta 1.8T
2002 Grand Prix GT
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