RVnRobin wrote: I smell a con. Not sure what it is yet. But, a con nevertheless.
Base line pricing new rigs is relatively easy if you look at previous years resale values on KBB or NADA. Say you are looking at a 2008 make and model XXX. Just look at 2007 and 2006 resale values for same size, options, and condition, whatever the percentage difference between 2006 and 2007, calculate twice that percentage between 2007 and 2008 to come up with a ballpark for new pricing. There are lots of variables, like delivery charges to the dealer, dealer labor costs, dealer overhead, etc. Don't be surprised if first year depreciation is 30-40%. This will give you only a ballpark idea of where you might start negotiating. Anyone can do it without an "AGENT" "working" for us.
Sorry if I am a cynic.
Well Robin, all I can say is that time will tell you whether this is a "con" or not. There's no harm in being cynical. I will challenge you to a "cynic contest" anytime, anywhere, and I'll bet I'm twenty times more cynical than you on most issues.
What you're saying, I believe, is that it's virtually impossible to pin down what profit a dealer is truly making. This may be true, but I know this: Dealer overhead may differ, labor rates may differ somewhat, but the profits some dealers can be astronomical when a buyer walks through their doors uninformed. Dealers will always make a profit because they simply won't sell a unit they can't mark up enough to cover their overhead. And if you read the postings a little more carefully, I think you'll see that I have given up the "agent" approach. I admit that I was naive in believing that I could email dealers as a middleman and expect any cooperation. This is precisely why I'm not giving up. Just ask yourself why a dealer doesn't want to sell RVs when he can't deal directly with the buyer. Where's the opportunity to confuse the buyer when everything's in black-and-white on emails? Where's the opportunity to make an excessive profit when you're competing against a couple of dozen fellow dealers?
I want you to visit the Web site when it's ready. Check it out. Make suggestions. Maybe become a mentor to a new buyer if you think you have enough experience. And if you still smell a con, you might want to have your smeller adjusted.
Just one thought about the "not listing the names of bad dealers" First of all it's call FREEDOM OF SPEACH! Secondly, like I said in an earlier post, do a search for "Poulsbo RV" and look at the site the guy created. He has been "contacted" by the lawyers before but they have always backed down because they have no leg to stand on.
My biggest problem with not listing the name of the dealers that people have had bad experience with is that prospective buyers will see the lack of specific information about a dealer and assume that they are o.k. because no one is complaining about them.
For what it's worth we have also found a site that lists dealers by state and allows anyone to post their comments and experiences about their RV purchase on the site. There seems to be 100s of dealers listed as well as service facilities with good and bad listed. Unless you are doing something really different it seems that someone has already beaten you to the punch.
However everyone needs a hobby and more information is always better.
Good luck.
Ed/N7UMS
31' Fleetwood Flair, Georgetown 378TS on order
'98 Jeep Wrangler Toad
www.nwjeepn.com
The Trail Starts Here!
"I can fix it, and if I can't fix it, I can fix it so nobody can fix it!"
Just one thought about the "not listing the names of bad dealers" First of all it's call FREEDOM OF SPEACH! Secondly, like I said in an earlier post, do a search for "Poulsbo RV" and look at the site the guy created. He has been "contacted" by the lawyers before but they have always backed down because they have no leg to stand on.
My biggest problem with not listing the name of the dealers that people have had bad experience with is that prospective buyers will see the lack of specific information about a dealer and assume that they are o.k. because no one is complaining about them.
For what it's worth we have also found a site that lists dealers by state and allows anyone to post their comments and experiences about their RV purchase on the site. There seems to be 100s of dealers listed as well as service facilities with good and bad listed. Unless you are doing something really different it seems that someone has already beaten you to the punch.
However everyone needs a hobby and more information is always better.
Good luck.
Ed,
I'm not comfortable at this point listing "bad" dealers for a number of reasons. One is that it's ME with my neck stuck out if dealers decide to harrass the site. I can afford to run a Web site, but I can't afford to hire lawyers to nitpick with dealers' lawyers. If that sounds chicken****, so be it. As far as how to list information on dealers so people won't think that "no news is good news," I'm working on that problem. You have a good point there.
I would be interested in knowing what Web site you're talking about, where you can get dealer references. I might link to that site and save some work.
This site is going to incorporate a lot of information. I think it will be unique in all of the elements of buying an RV that it brings together. I sure don't look at similar Web sites as competition. The more the merrier...
In theory , you have a great idea. In the real world, you are , to put it nicely, dreaming.
I cannot think of any dealer, not one, that would contribute or participate in your endeavor. Dealers are , in my experience, people who are in the business to make money off the unsuspecting. Hard words, but I believe you will find that to be true.
As far as not listing bad dealers, I sincerely believe you will use very little bandwidth lising the good dealers. Sad situation, I admit.
Ask yourself this question....... If I were making my living, with everything I owned or will owe, on the line, would I let an outsider dictate or sway or in any way, change my way of doing business? Not hardly. Would I be interested in informing the general public about my business? Nope. Could an outside person , not affiliated financially , with my business , help me? Nope.
Great idea, great thoughts, but I sure wouldnt want to deal with anything like this and yea, I buy and sell rvs, cars, trucks, anything I can make a buck on.
Your idea is sorta like rv park reviews, post only the ones they like, ones from the park owners themselves, and is actually ranked low on the scale of usefullness, due to the varied mind preceiving of human beings.
What you might call a good dealer, or a contributor, might be a nightmare to someone else. An informed buyer is way ahead of your information, as it seems you are going to rely of others to furnish the info or the dealer themselves.
Nothing will beat common sense, business savy, and the power of a human mind to concieve the difference. Your website willnot help the uninformed, uneducated, impulse buyer. They are destined to make the mistakes suffer the consequences. Sorry to say, that is the american way of business in todays world.
* This post was
edited 06/29/08 09:09am by WTTCS *
All this wheeling and dealing does not work for me.
I decide what I want to buy, what I want to pay.
I never get emotionaly involved.
I am not looking to get married here!
Quite simple, I walk in, say I am intersted in this unit, ask, "what is your rock bottom price?"
Now the price quoted is either at my pre decided buy point or below.
If it is either, we can start signing papers, if not, off to the next one.
One of my many hats through the years involved sales, I know many of the ploys and BS, no time for that, lowest price first time or watch me head for the door.
WTTCS wrote: In theory , you have a great idea. In the real world, you are , to put it nicely, dreaming.
I cannot think of any dealer, not one, that would contribute or participate in your endeavor. Dealers are , in my experience, people who are in the business to make money off the unsuspecting. Hard words, but I believe you will find that to be true.
As far as not listing bad dealers, I sincerely believe you will use very little bandwidth lising the good dealers. Sad situation, I admit.
Ask yourself this question....... If I were making my living, with everything I owned or will owe, on the line, would I let an outsider dictate or sway or in any way, change my way of doing business? Not hardly. Would I be interested in informing the general public about my business? Nope. Could an outside person , not affiliated financially , with my business , help me? Nope.
Great idea, great thoughts, but I sure wouldnt want to deal with anything like this and yea, I buy and sell rvs, cars, trucks, anything I can make a buck on.
Your idea is sorta like rv park reviews, post only the ones they like, ones from the park owners themselves, and is actually ranked low on the scale of usefullness, due to the varied mind preceiving of human beings.
What you might call a good dealer, or a contributor, might be a nightmare to someone else. An informed buyer is way ahead of your information, as it seems you are going to rely of others to furnish the info or the dealer themselves.
Nothing will beat common sense, business savy, and the power of a human mind to concieve the difference. Your website willnot help the uninformed, uneducated, impulse buyer. They are destined to make the mistakes suffer the consequences. Sorry to say, that is the american way of business in todays world.
You are absolutely right. The more I have thought about this grand idea, and the more I have researched it, I have come to basically the same conclusion...
I like the principal of the idea - provide those people who do not currently possess the skills or the knowledge to negotiate 'good' deals with an online resource of information, templates, mentors and dealer reviews.
I'd also like to see a constantly updatedl list of 'Deals' - people updating you with a specific deal such as
Date - Product - Dealer - Location - MSRP - Price Paid and then a comment that they add about the experience and any advice for someone wanting a similar deal.
There are lots of people who do not know how to get a deal and they are the ones that buy at sticker or think they got a deal cos the dealer through in a set of free mats.
We have to remember that the people on these forums are the 'educated' ones - we get so much info from it that we have no excuse not to get a good deal - but next time you are at a campground, ask people if they have heard of RV.net - I tried it and haven't found one person who had a clue what I was talking about. There are x million RVers out there and maybe 2000 on RV.net as regular readers.
So you have to get the web site out to the masses and that takes time and money - I know because of my similar altruistic site - I refuse to have advertising or make money from it and you have to be prepared to stand by what you believe in and spend money. It's fun and gives you a sense of pride but it will cost you.
So take the comments from this forum as constructive advice but frame it in the context that 'we' are already informed and knowledgeable - it's the other 99% of RVers that you need to get to.
RV Park Finder
Fulltimers
2002 Beaver Santiam 38DST + Banks + 99 Jeep GC
DH,DW,Jake and Indie
You know Steve, you may hit on a great idea, sure wish RV NET would pick up on it, but we all must realize that they make their living off the very dealers we want to take advantage of, er, get the best deal and cut their profits.
Perhaps John could revamp his thoughts and get a website just for that. That in itself would help some, but as some said, getting people to VIEW you website is the age old problem of advertising.
You can have a better mousetrap, but getting the word out has always been the problem.
I'd just be happy with a site that easily provides me with accurate dealer cost figures. I'm looking to buy a Surveyor SV249, but I have no idea what's a good price and what's a price that would make me the fool. I tried looking it up on the NADA guide but it's not very straightforward with the number of options they give you, and with every one of them driving the price up (even options which don't make sense or aren't available).
John, if you are looking for a good way to help the average Joe, that would be a good way.
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