crappie_fisherman wrote: I just returned from a 4444 mile trip towing a big loop from Indiana down thru Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Illinois and home to Indiana.
I tow a 9000# 35' hitch to bumper TT.
On the way to Arizona (1800 miles) I fought a VERY stiff cross/head wind (depending on road curves)...the wind blew like CRAZY from Indiana to Arizona. Four NON STOP DAYS OF FREAKIN' WIND in the 30++ mph category.
I was able to pull 2 600 mile 12 hour days and 2 300 mile 6 hour days in that wind. I would NOT do it without either of the following towing MY TT.
1) My 138" of wheel base on my 3/4 ton Excursion
2) My Hensley Arrow
In addition to the non-stop winds in the flat lands...I got into many many canyon areas that had very gusty cross winds.
There is IMO no substitute for proper TV to TT match up. Sure there IS more to stability than simply wheel base...but a long wheel base TV for the average newbie goes a LONG WAY to aiding that person to stay on the RIGHT SIDE of the stability equation. Most folks are not techincally astute enough to understand which knobs to tweak to make a short wheel based vehicle into a safe and stable tow vehicle for a LONG and HEAVY trailer.
LEVERAGE and PHYSICS cannot be ignored...sorry.
joe.
No doubt what you say is true joe and it also brings to mind another experiance about a short wheel based vehicle towing a TT the same length as yours. It performed very well too except this guy didn't have the help of a Hensley.
QUOTE: I remember in 1994 I left an Airstream rally in Brandon Manitoba and headed east along with hundreds of other Airstreams there was a strong Southerly wind blowing. We could see many of the trailers swaying as we passed them. Most of these units were being towed by improperly connected Suburbans and pick-ups with 131" wheelbases. I was towing a 34' Airstream with a 114" wheel base Intrepid with a conventional hitch blowing by them all in the left lane and not swaying a bit (shouldn’t drive that fast but once in a while a little show and tell is hard to resist). A 34' Airstream with triple axle independent suspension connected to a 114" wheelbase tow vehicle with independent suspension, a properly sized tire and wheel combination will be very stable. Ask me to set up a Suburban with 131" wheelbase to a typical 27' conventional trailer with leaf springs and a 12' Slide-out and I will do everything I can to get you to use a Hensley because without one it will not be a very stable combination. Get rid of the slide-out so the trailer can sit 6" lower and you can tow the same length with a properly set up conventional hitch. The balance of the trailer can also make quite a difference. QUOTE by AT.
The whole issue is a tough one and you will find as many opinions as there are responders. Personally, I've been trying to find a meaningful relationship for years without success....only opinions.
So far, I have to go with the vehicle manufacturers recommendations as these, at least, have some engineering behind them. For example, my Jeep at 109.5" W/B has four maximum requirements:
30 ft max
7200 lbs
64 sq ft max frontal area.
750 lbs tongue wt before W/D.
Hopefully, the other manufactures also have a detailed breakdown on what can be towed.
Granted, the longer W/B should be more stable then shorter but here again it's very relative and no one can say how much is enough. I tend to agree with the original post. The convenience of a smaller vehicle for running around after the TT is parked can not be ignored. I detest riding around in a 3/4T pickup, the ride is horrible. Unless you go diesel, the drive train is probably the same in an SUV and a large P/U.
You will find referances to the Laws off Physics and leverage but no one can tell you what they are and how they apply to your vehicle.
Probably the best bet is to consult the vehicle manufacturer and look to forums for experieced RV'ers with your same vehicle.
Dick
2008 Toyota Tundra Crew Max Limited TRD
2009 Cougar 268 RLS ~8400 lbs road wt
Equal-i-zer 12,000 lb hitch, Prodigy BC.
2006 Jeep Liberty Turbo Diesel.....TV in Training
2005 Jeep GC 5.7 HEMI,(retired)
2005 Jayco Jay Feather 25Z, 4" lift (Retired)
crappie_fisherman wrote: I just returned from a 4444 mile trip towing a big loop from Indiana down thru Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Illinois and home to Indiana.
I tow a 9000# 35' hitch to bumper TT.
On the way to Arizona (1800 miles) I fought a VERY stiff cross/head wind (depending on road curves)...the wind blew like CRAZY from Indiana to Arizona. Four NON STOP DAYS OF FREAKIN' WIND in the 30++ mph category.
I was able to pull 2 600 mile 12 hour days and 2 300 mile 6 hour days in that wind. I would NOT do it without either of the following towing MY TT.
1) My 138" of wheel base on my 3/4 ton Excursion
2) My Hensley Arrow
In addition to the non-stop winds in the flat lands...I got into many many canyon areas that had very gusty cross winds.
There is IMO no substitute for proper TV to TT match up. Sure there IS more to stability than simply wheel base...but a long wheel base TV for the average newbie goes a LONG WAY to aiding that person to stay on the RIGHT SIDE of the stability equation. Most folks are not techincally astute enough to understand which knobs to tweak to make a short wheel based vehicle into a safe and stable tow vehicle for a LONG and HEAVY trailer.
LEVERAGE and PHYSICS cannot be ignored...sorry.
joe.
We are on the same page. I have a propride 3p pivot projection hitch, same functionally as the Hensley. Most people try to tell me that the cost of the hitch is not justified for my particular trailer. They just want to learn the hard way as far as I am concerned. There is no comparison in the way you can handle the trailer between the hensley/propride design (also PullRite, the one with the swing arm) and the other hitches. I do not hesitate to weave to miss big pot holes (within reason) and I do not have to go into panic mode if there is a sudden need to turn. And, as you said the passing trucks go unnoticed. The sheer relaxation one can enjoy towing with the propride is amazing. You simply do not have to get so involved in the vehicle trailer interaction. Just drive with proper awareness of the weight, length, braking etc. It's the same type of driving as with a fifthwheel.
BTW the HensleyPropride will make a short wheel base TV perform better than a long wheelbase TV with a conventional hitch (assuming it has the proper GVW, braking etc.
I chimed in on the earlier post to impress upon those who are trying to make decisions on this that if they do not know enough about the dynamics then they are flirting with danger going against conventional wisdom of longer wheelbase TV, and good hitch, (such as fifth wheel, pullrite, hensley, propride 3P etc) They need to know that all the other hitches are compromises for the sake of cost or ignorance. If the trailer is small enough of course it doesn't make enough difference what hitch. I was young once and in getting started I had to sort through all the conventional wisdom the old timers were putting out and I came to realize that much of what was being said as gospel or fact all depended on a combination of other factors. Sometimes it was just plain baloney. I learned that when I rigged up that angle iron under my van forward of the bumper and put a ball on it. I moved a 35 foot trailer from Atlanta to Ky with no sway. I was very gratified to see for my self what a few change in the geometry could make. There are all sorts of ways to skin a cat.
The cost of the the ProPride 3P hitch has paid off in fearless driving, with few concerns about how the rig is handling. I don't have to be having a good day to decide that I want to hitch up and go. I don't expect it will handle a tornado very well and winds that would blow over tractor trailers and railroad trains are going to blow me over too, but those situations are usually pretty easy to ancicipate and avoid. When they happen someone wants to chime in and say the hensley couldn't cut the mustard. Many things can happen that the hitch has nothing to do with so seeing a hensley hitch on a wrecked trailer proves nothing in and of itself.
2008 Dutchmen Kodiak 27CDSL, 94 Dodge 4x4 Cummins, Trailer mods: Automatic switchover for Honda EU3000IS generator w/extension plug to back of truck. Propride 3P hitch Plan to do mods for camping in cold weather.
I'll toss my 2 cents in on this since I'm a short wheel base/long tralier rv'er. I have an 05 Durango and a 08 Spree 261rks. The TT is within the specs of what my TV can handle but I KNOW the tt is back there. I've even had DW follow behind me while I've driven it around town and down I-26. I wanted her to tell me if it's as really all over the place as it feels. She tells me it's rock steady..sure doesn't feel like it!! (I know better than to argure with her though!!)
As Crappie stated, "Most folks are not techincally astute enough to understand which knobs to tweak to make a short wheel based vehicle into a safe and stable tow vehicle for a LONG and HEAVY trailer."
He's right, I don't understand all this hitching/weight/length stuff. But I do believe I have some common sense and I can read. And read these fourms, I do. And from this reading I know that I am near my limits. I know I need a larger TV. But I've also learned what NOT to do and how to be a little more careful and safe out there. I'm watching my speed, I'm sticking to back roads where I can because I'm not going to run 75-80 mph to keep from getting run over on the interstate. I'm keeping my tires aired up; I even learned to use a CAT scale from reading on here..and I now know my fully loaded true weights. I also learned, and i still don't understand why, that by loosening the sway bar, the tt actually sways less. I read it, went out and tried it, and sure enough. That's the best thing I've done so far to improve handling!!
So thanks to all of you for posting. I'll keep reading and learning and maybe one day I'll figure out how to tilt my hitch head with washers...
Do the numbers concerning GVW etc and use common sense. YEP I believe that is how I learned --- don't use use common sense and you probably won't get a chance to learn
A longer wheelbase and a shorter hitch to rear axle is the preferred way to go and it will go a long way in keeping a marginal rig in check and easier to drive. So, if you insist in going against the advice of those that have thousands of towing miles behind then, use caution and the beat hitch you can buy and NO FRICTION SWAY CONTROLS pleas.
ken
KE5DFR
Vintage 1979 Silver Streak Supreme Rocket toted by a 2002 F350, crewcab dually, 7.3L,4.10 axle,SCMT. Travel with two miniature Schnauzers and one African Gray parrot. Practicing for retirement!
NCHornet1 wrote: The longer the WB the more stable of a towing platform. When you use a W/D hitch you are using the strength and length of the frame to stabalize your combo, so the longer the better when it comes to towing. If my 30ft TT gets hit with a gust of canyon side wind, it will have to be very powerful to move my 1 ton, CC, LB Dually, now replace my TV with something with a short wheel base, you now have what we call the tail wagging the dog and it isn't a good feeling!!! I live at the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains, highway 77 makes the decent down the mountain and it is known for strong cross winds that come out of no where. My neighbor owns a body shop here in town and he has contracts with the local wrecker services. Every time those winds kick up you should see the TT, Fvers and TV's that end up in that place. He even had a TV like mine with a 34 ft fver that flipped right over on it's side, but the vast mijority of them are folks towing longer trailers and short WB TV's, and yes many of them have the famous "Hensley magic cure all hitch" sure didn't do these folks much good. It is all about having a stable platform and combination when it's all hitched up. It doesn't take a canyon wind either, this can happen when a big rig passes by to close to fast. I am 55ft+/- all hooked up, yes it can be a pain getting around some CG's but I manage, I would much rather have a stable platform on the highway, and have to back up a few times in a CG. I hope this helps you.
NCH
Couldn't say it any better myself.(Mikhen)In your case an Avalanche is really not that short,and as a rear end and chassis shop owner the chassis under your vehicle is basic 1/2,or HD 1/2 truck,if you like your setup then stay with it,To spend thousands for a hitch to "fix" not enough TV is silly,you are literally putting a Band-Aid on something and not fixing it,(bluwtr)I see you on here " pleading"your case many times on your Jeep,combo,and you may have done a lot of research and adjusting to get your rig to pull good for you,but I can tell you from everyday working on Jeeps with burnt up rears,NOT pulling TTs,with that little Dana 44 and no frame and short wheelbase,It wouldn't matter to me what the factory says,I see a Jeep size veh. pulling a 30' TT I'm going to pass him and get WAY out in front of him on the Interstate so I'm not even near him.I know you do not have a 30' TT and your particular setup may be good for you,but if you ever get the chance,pull your TT with a 1/2 or 3/4 ton LWB vehicle and see what a different feeling you have.Hensley or not...
2008 Keystone Cougar XLite 29RLS
2006 Super Duty V10 6 Speed 4.10S Tow Command Tow Pkg. 4X4
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Plan to do mods for camping in cold weather.
