SteveRankin wrote: Ron, I've got a question: you mentioned your motor home, but it's not clear if you have a Hensley Hitch and that's what you are watching in your rear view monitor, or if you have ever towed with one.
After towing a TT 70,000 miles during 10 years, we bought a new Monaco Windsor in 2004. No, we don't have a Hensley Hitch on the back of our motorhome, and, as pointed out many times on the ORF, I have never towed with one. I was observing the position of the "V" at the point where the towbar arms attach to the drawbar.
Quote: As for not being able to see the hitch 'kick out' when making a sudden maneuver at highway speeds seems pretty meaningless to me. The yaw angle of the coach as highway speeds is minuscule.
Yes, and the yaw angle of any TV towing at highway speeds is also miniscule. As I pointed out earlier, a vehicle moving at highway speeds makes lane change maneuvers or rounds a curve primarily by moving laterally. A vehicle simply does not instantaneously change its yaw angle and then proceed straight along its new course. The lateral force on the steering axle causes the vehicle initially to translate laterally toward the inside of the curve and this tends to negate any outward movement at the rear of the vehicle due to yaw.
Quote: Furthermore, it's not possible to look at the rear monitor and make anything remotely resembling a sudden maneuver at the same time while at highway speeds. Our previous coach was a Beaver Patriot, one of the better handing DPs IMHO, and even as crazy as I might be, I'd never attempt to play with the steering wheel while watching the rear view monitor.
Neither would I. That's why I made the observations when someone else was driving.
Quote: However, at low speeds the 'kickout' of the rear of a DP is VERY noticeable and must be accounted for or you'll hit something at the outside of a turn if you are too close. This applies to both DP's and TT's. But, the kickout of the rear of the TV at low speeds is a non-issue in terms of stability.
I agree. And, since no one has offered any proof that the same amount of "kick out" occurs at highway speeds, I see no reason to believe that it does.
Quote: Which brings me to something you wrote last year that I ran into while researching this topic some more:
Ron Gatz, 11/15/07 wrote: I understand a Hensley Arrow can also be rather noisy -- for instance, when it goes "BUMP".
Unlike the noise made by a friction bar, the "Hensley Bump" also can be dangerous.
Ron
Yes, the Hensley does go bump, but it only does that when turned to an extreme angle which is only possible at low speeds. It is very simply NOT possible to turn a Hensley or ProPride hitch to such an angle to cause that bump at speeds over about 15 MPH. Usually, much less, say 5 MPH as in a parking lot turn.
I would prefer to limit this discussion to the alleged "kick out" effect. However -- in your search, did you run across this post by Les Adams in the "Dynamics of the Hensley Bump'" thread? Les experienced a very dramatic bump and he was not turning at an extreme angle at low speed in a parking lot.
Quote: This is caused by a characteristic of the Hensley hitch that requires the TT to get several inches closer to the TV in order to make a sharp turn. When the hitch is pointed straight ahead, the hitch shortens imperceptibly when turning, but when it reaches a certain very sharp angle, it quickly shortens several inches, causing a very noticeable bump.
At an articulation of 43 degrees, the ball coupler has moved forward about 6" relative to its straight-ahead position. Is that what you mean by "several inches closer"?. I doubt that Les was turning at that much of an angle when he experienced the bump. As you said, such an extreme angle is only possible at low speeds. You don't need to be at an extreme angle in order to experience the "bump".
Have you ever been in one of those situations where you were just not able to get it right, you are either too far to the left or too far to the right? -- doesn't happen very often and it is kind of frustrating when it happens. That is the kind of day you can have real easy with a ProPride or Hensley. With a ball hitch, you can see whether you are off center too far to be able to drop the coupler. On the Hensley or ProPride you have to develop a different eye for seeing if you are lined up so you can back in the stinger.
It is not as intuitive, but once I looked things over and determined what has to happen I have learned how to most times hook up faster. If I get it lined up correctly by watching closely as I back I can back up all the way until the stinger bottoms out, no guessing if I have backed up far enough or too far, -- then lock the brake, and toggle the locks. From there is is standard stuff. Lower the jack. Crank up the WD bars, they are already hooked up, nothing else to do there, -- then do electrical.
There are several means of helping with the lining up if it becomes a problem but so far it has been so easy I have not bothered to take advantage of the aids. There is a "hitch aid" (about $45)that will move the trailer tongue back and forth about 10" to help center the stinger hole, there is a false stinger made out of wood that one can insert in the trailer part of the hitch to provide a visual aid, and of course those convex backup mirrors, or backup cameras. Some people depending on their knack may need to bite the bullet and invest in one of these.
The hardest part for me is unhooking. Need to figure out when I have jacked the trailer weight off the truck. With a ball hitch you see the coupler lift off the ball. Most Hensley owners I have talked to watch the hitch receiver for when the shank becomes free to wiggle,--- some slip a piece of paper as a feeler gage and feel for the shank getting tight against the top of the receiver. My shank is snug so there is no movement, actually not snug but can't get a piece of paper in. I keep forgetting to get a thinner feeler gage strip to try.
The best technique for backing into the hitch is to understand what the trailer part of the hitch does when you flop it back and forth. Once you see how it projects a line toward the truck and how that line turns slightly when you push the hitch laterally you will see how that you can back up about 1 or 2 inches from the hitch , move the hitch left or right to line up to receiver then observe the line the trailer part of the hitch projects, then turn the TV wheels to swing the TV in line with the line the hitch projects. It is not as complicated as it sounds, just a matter of backing up to the hitch and figuring out for yourself what the dynamics are. If you figure that out it is faster than a ball hitch, because you can back right in and feel the stinger bottom in the hitch and lock the brake and you are done.
There are techniques that solve the line up problem and and they are not rocket science level. Once those are slolved it is faster to hook up than a ball hitch.
2008 Dutchmen Kodiak 27CDSL, 94 Dodge 4x4 Cummins, Trailer mods: Automatic switchover for Honda EU3000IS generator w/extension plug to back of truck. Propride 3P hitch Plan to do mods for camping in cold weather.
SteveRankin wrote: Which brings me to something you wrote last year that I ran into while researching this topic some more:
Ron Gatz, 11/15/07 wrote: I understand a Hensley Arrow can also be rather noisy -- for instance, when it goes "BUMP".
Unlike the noise made by a friction bar, the "Hensley Bump" also can be dangerous.
Ron
Yes, the Hensley does go bump, but it only does that when turned to an extreme angle which is only possible at low speeds. It is very simply NOT possible to turn a Hensley or ProPride hitch to such an angle to cause that bump at speeds over about 15 MPH. Usually, much less, say 5 MPH as in a parking lot turn.
I would prefer to limit this discussion to the alleged "kick out" effect. However -- in your search, did you run across this post by Les Adams in the "Dynamics of the Hensley Bump'" thread? Les experienced a very dramatic bump and he was not turning at an extreme angle at low speed in a parking lot.
Quote: This is caused by a characteristic of the Hensley hitch that requires the TT to get several inches closer to the TV in order to make a sharp turn. When the hitch is pointed straight ahead, the hitch shortens imperceptibly when turning, but when it reaches a certain very sharp angle, it quickly shortens several inches, causing a very noticeable bump.
At an articulation of 43 degrees, the ball coupler has moved forward about 6" relative to its straight-ahead position. Is that what you mean by "several inches closer"?. I doubt that Les was turning at that much of an angle when he experienced the bump. As you said, such an extreme angle is only possible at low speeds. You don't need to be at an extreme angle in order to experience the "bump".
Ron
OK, I have experienced what Les was talking about, however I would not call it a bump as the bump characteristic is minor. As Les noted, the trailer brakes must be set up to lead the TV brakes or the Hensley will be in compression instead of tension. This causes the linkage to shift to one side an inch or two. That in turn, creates a side force on the TV which causes it to veer at a small but very real angle. We experienced this most recently when DW connected the TT's electric cable to the TV but didn't fully insert it. As a result, the TT's brakes didn't work and the truck veered when I applied the brakes. Obviously, this could be a real problem, especially if someone used a Hensley to overcome the behavior of a too large TT for the TV.
Les mentions in his post that part of the problem is the TT has drum brakes and the TV has disc brakes. Well, yes and no. Since we've have TT's with both drum & disc brakes, I'll explain the difference.
TT's with drum brakes are very responsive and can be set up to apply as soon as the TV's brake light switch is activated. This is great for a Hensley because you can keep the hitch in tension. But, drum brakes are not linear devices and they are subject to brake fade. So, amping up the TT's brakes to get them to apply quickly also means they'll be a bit aggressive, but when the TV's brakes are applied harder the TV's deceleration rate will increase faster than the TT's decelerations rate because of the non-linearity of drum brakes--regardless of what type of brake controller is used. Add in brake fade and sooner of later, the Hensley hitch will come under compression loads. However, the transition from tension to compression will be gradual and a minor issue when the driver is running out of brakes on the TT.
When we had our '05 Holiday Rambler 32FKD (12,000+#) converted to disc brakes & MOR/ryde suspension the timing of the TT's brakes became an issue. This is because it takes 0.2 to 0.7 seconds for the hydraulic pump that's part of the TT disc brake system to develop pressure from rest. We opted for the best pump of the time, a dual model with a 0.2 second delay. The result was a small veering of the TV, bordering on trivial, but more than compensated for by the vastly improved braking of the TT. Since it was not possible for the delay to be eliminated, the veer was there on every brake application, so it became natural to apply a small steering correction. The overall improvement in braking and control was more than worth it. Why don't they incorporate an accumulator to eliminate the delay?
With the drum brakes, BOTH the acceleration and deceleration of the TV varies according to the relative weight of the TT. Anyone that says they can stop their rig as quickly with the TT as without is dreaming. But, with disc brakes on the TT it really is possible to stop as quickly with the TV running empty.
Bottom line. NOTHING is without a compromise. The Hensley-type hitch is expensive and does have a couple of quirks. It does take care in properly setting it up, but so does a conventional hitch. But, it is a day & night difference to tow with a Hensley vs. a conventional friction-based sway control hitch. Likewise, disc brakes on the TT are fabulous. Perfect? No, just fabulous. Expensive? Yes. Will we be upgrading the Arctic Fox to disc brakes? As soon as I can justify the $3K to DW, yes. But, first we have that little snafu with the dealer to clear up.
Steve & C. J.
"Gracie" the Rough Collie & "Bo'sun" the Bichon Frise
dodge guy wrote: I have a relevant question to this post. what happens if a strut rod breaks on the hitch? wouldn`t this give an uncontrollable rear steer condition?
To answer the question , most likely yes
But, has it happened? I've been on this forum for many many years and never read about this happening..
Its probably just as likely to happen as the ball on the hitch breaking off or a tire falling off your TV or TT.
These struts are stout !
Robert
06 Ram CTD 2500HD Megacab Flame Red
2005 298 BHS Jayco Eagle TT
Hensley Arrow , Prodigy
I would think if any part of any hitch breaks you would have some sort of control loss. That's just one of thoughs things we hope does not happen but deal with it if or when it does. Just like tire blowouts, brake failures....
H & E wrote: I was parked next to a camper that was using a Hensley. He was having trouble hooking up....During our conversation he indicated that it sometimes took him about an hour to get hooked up...
Wow, something is wrong with that guy. Sounds like he needs another type of RV.
I can get the stinger in the Hensley receiver the first shot, every time. I can hitch faster with the Hensley than a traditional ball coupler.
He may have owned it 6 years, but may have not used it much. It seems the most common problem hooking up is the spring bars are not completely backed off..........not just loose but completely bottomed out till it stops. Then the second reason probably is trying to put the stinger in at a slight angle. As 85Allegro mentioned stopping and looking at the stinger and hole. Turn the steering wheel to move the rear of tv to align everything up. If the angle is off slightly the stinger will go in the box but not all the way for a full hookup. I have very little luck moving the hitch box for this alignment. Move the tv.
I was parked next to a camper that was using a Hensley. He was having trouble hooking up....During our conversation he indicated that it sometimes took him about an hour to get hooked up...
Wow, something is wrong with that guy. Sounds like he needs another type of RV.
I can get the stinger in the Hensley receiver the first shot, every time. I can hitch faster with the Hensley than a traditional ball coupler.
Same here 95% of the time..Faster than a conventional..
But on occasion I have brain lock and struggle for 5 minutes..
If I understand it, ProPride is or has developed an adapter that will allow you to connect it to a ball style hitch temporarily. Would this not help if you end up in a position that would be difficult to unhook and rehook in a straight line. Couldn't you hook onto a ball pull it out until you are in a straight line, disconnect pull forward 3 or 4 feet, remove the adapter and put the stinger on. Then all you have to do is get the up and down right and your connected. Of course this would be several extra steps and maybe 10 minutes extra hooking up. I would say that would be a fair trade off.
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Plan to do mods for camping in cold weather.
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