I don`t fight sway, I eliminated it! how? by properly loading my TT and TV and correctly setting up my WD hitch. I use the Dual Cam to insure it does stay stable if it ever did decide to sway.
The HA is a great hitch! but it is not "needed" by everyone! the downfall to the Hensley is the people and the DVD that make it look invincible to sway.
The Hensley does not defeat the laws of physics!
Wife kim
Son brandon 7yrs
Daughter marissa 6yrs
Dog shadow
07 Cherokee 32B
02 Excursion 4X4 V-10 4.30 gear
Reese HP dualcam,Prodigy brake controller,
Air lift air bags.
Better to have a bad day of
camping than a good day at work!
dodge guy wrote: I don`t fight sway, I eliminated it! how? by properly loading my TT and TV and correctly setting up my WD hitch. I use the Dual Cam to insure it does stay stable if it ever did decide to sway.
The HA is a great hitch! but it is not "needed" by everyone! the downfall to the Hensley is the people and the DVD that make it look invincible to sway.
The Hensley does not defeat the laws of physics!
I don't have one yet, but with the design of the Hensley or ProPride it would PHYSICALLY(speaking of physics) be impossible for it to sway. It appears to me that it is virtually locked in a straight line until the TV forced it out... Any HA or PP owns please correct me if I'm wrong. All I can go by is discriptions, pictures and videos. you are eliminating that hinge point while traveling down the road.
dodge guy wrote: I don`t fight sway, I eliminated it! how? by properly loading my TT and TV and correctly setting up my WD hitch. I use the Dual Cam to insure it does stay stable if it ever did decide to sway.
The HA is a great hitch! but it is not "needed" by everyone! the downfall to the Hensley is the people and the DVD that make it look invincible to sway.
The Hensley does not defeat the laws of physics!
Perhaps the advertising is so silly because it is so difficult to explain the physics involved. Even so, the advertising surely does not have to be that silly
As far as the Hensley not changing the laws of physics, that is true enough. It does not change the laws but rather it changes the physics. That is, it changes the effective pivot point of the TT to the TV so that the sway is not initiated. Any hitch that pivots rear of the TV axle, causes the TT to swing initially in the opposite direction the TV was turned. The further the pivot is behind the TV axle the greater the swing in the wrong direction. So there you are making a quick turn to the left and the trailer initially kicks out to the right relative to the TV. Literally you are wagging the trailer. With a hitch ball close to the rear axle the wag is small and with a hitch a long way from the axle the wag is larger.
A way to see that the hitch moves in the opposite direction of the turn is to try backing your left rear bumper back past a wall corner and up close enough to the wall that the fender is about to rub the wall and get it real close so you can see any change in distance to the wall. Now consider what will happen if you try to move the fender away from the wall by turning your front wheels full right and moving forward. What you will observe is that even though the front of the TV is going toward the right in the direction the front wheels were turned, the rear fender aft of the rear wheels will move momentartily to the left and drag on the wall and scratch up your fender. The further your fender is to the rear of the rear axle the more it will move toward the wall and in the opposite direction of the turn. To move the part of the fender that is aft of the rear wheels away from the wall, you need to turn the TV toward the wall.
The rear of a TV moves in the opposite direction of the turn. The hitch ball is even further behind the rear wheels than the fender so it will move even more in the opposite direction of the turn. And that is the physics of a pivot point that is at a fixed distance behind the rear wheels. Fifth wheel trailers, Propride 3p hitches, Hensley etc have different physics. The the actual pivot point is near the rear axle. They all obey the same laws of physics but the physics (geometry) is different.
Anyone driving a motor home or truck with a large rear overhang soon learns to make sure the rear is past any close obstacles before initiating a turn away from the obstacle. Many a motor home has swung the rear right into the light post that the rear wheels had already safely cleared. Gotta make sure the rear bumper is past the obstruction before turning away from it. Your hitch ball makes this same kind of movement. It always moves the trailer the wrong way initially. The fifth wheels and the Proride 3p move it in the right direction so no sway is initiated by turning the TV.
A ball pivot that is to the rear of the TV rear axle will always move in the opposite direction of the turn and so when a turn is initiated, the TT is steered in the opposite direction of the turn, then it has to move even faster in the direction of the turn in order to wind up in the turn you are creating with the TV. This is sway. This goes on all the time no matter how much friction is applied. The friction ( in the right amount) keeps it under control but the sway is there. As long as it is controlled you are happy and perhaps think it isn't there. But it is there. You might say, "who cares." as long as it is not out of control or is not so pronounced that you feel it.
Who cares? Well I like knowing that sway is not there. There all kinds of situations where it makes a trip more relaxing such as when going down long hills even if excessive speed sneeks up on you, --- well it is wonderful to just let off the gas and slow her down and know that sway is not going to become greater than the sway fighter can fight and go ballistic. I like knowing there is no sway so I can pay attention to all the other driving concerns. And it is not just a theoetical peace of mind. Anyone who has graduated from TT to fifth wheel knows the difference is night and day. And so does the experienced ProPride or Hensley driver.
Did you ever notice those house trailer tow trucks, how the hitch point is tucked way up next to the axle? Now there is a situation where you do not want to even think about inducing sway. The hitch pivot point is the thing to pay attention to. No sway fighters for those guys.
If you start whipping your steering wheel around to drive like a fifth wheeler or a ProPride 3P can drive, you will find that sway is still there. You have not eliminated it, in fact after things get to a certain point the sway control (I call them sway fighters) actually make matters worse, that is, they make it harder to get the out of control sway back in control. You have only brought it under control to your satisfaction for the way you are going normnally down the highway. You have not eliminated the sway with a sway control hitch.
You cannot eliminate sway except by moving the pivot point between the TV and the TT toward the rear axle so that that pivot point does not move in the opposite direction of your turn.
I hope this helps someone to make a good decision of how close they want to live to the sway monster. I prefer to leave him at home.
2008 Dutchmen Kodiak 27CDSL, 94 Dodge 4x4 Cummins, Trailer mods: Automatic switchover for Honda EU3000IS generator w/extension plug to back of truck. Propride 3P hitch Plan to do mods for camping in cold weather.
85AllegroSam wrote: ---As far as the Hensley not changing the laws of physics, that is true enough. It does not change the laws but rather it changes the physics. That is, it changes the effective pivot point of the TT to the TV so that the sway is not initiated. Any hitch that pivots rear of the TV axle, causes the TT to swing initially in the opposite direction the TV was turned. The further the pivot is behind the TV axle the greater the swing in the wrong direction. So there you are making a quick turn to the left and the trailer initially kicks out to the right relative to the TV. Literally you are wagging the trailer. With a hitch ball close to the rear axle the wag is small and with a hitch a long way from the axle the wag is larger.
How much "wag" are we talking about here?
Let's assume with a conventional hitch the ball coupler is located 65" behind the differential of the TV and the wheelbase of the TV is 130". Let's also assume the TV is moving at 60 mph and the driver makes a "quick turn" to the left.
For the above conditions with a conventional hitch, how far does the trailer initially kick out to the right relative to the TV?
Now change from a conventional hitch to a Hensley Arrow. With the HA, how far would the trailer initially kick out to the right relative to the TV?
When I used the word kick out, I am actually referring to a smooth motion but the point is, it is in the wrong direction. It kicks out far enough relative to the rear wheels of the TV that the TT has to do an about face and go the other way to get on track and it will over shoot somewhat. It is always laying catchup. What ever amount it is, that is the sway and it is always there with the pivot point behind the rear wheels. The sway is defined by that little lag in what the trailer does vs. what the TV is doing. The TV heads one way and the trailer heads monemtarily in the opposite direction and then plays catch up. If the TV is big enough with stiff enough tires, or said another way, if the trailer is small enough in comparison to the TV then the effect is not big enough to be observable except with careful measurements. A trailer with more if its weight away from the axles behaves the same as a longer trailer and will be harder to control when this lag occurs. The lag is always there. But with each given hitch setup there is a margin of safety beyond which, the sway is out of control.
With the ProPride 3P (3P = Pivot Point Projection) there is no kickout. There is no lag. There is no sway. The trailer is instantly moving in the direction of the turn. The Linkages in the ProPride actually steers the trailer, not just drag it along. The ball in the trailer coupler is actually locked so that it cannot pivot. The linkage is designed such that the trailer is moving in response to TV movement as though the hitch pivot point is close to the axle. It steers essentially like a fifth wheel trailer. That is why I love my ProPride hitch. I have the steerability of the fifth wheel with out the high trailer. When we camp I only step up one step to get into and out of the trailer. it changes the whole character of the trailer camping experience. With the high trailer i tended t either stay in or stay out. Also as I have also mentioned, the lower trailer takes less fuel.
Hope this helps you make a good trailer/hitch decision.
The point difference in the ProPride, Hensley etc and the other hitches we have been talking about is that with the ProPride sway is not even remotely induced. With the sway fighters it is always being induced at some level. It is a matter of, do I have enough control over it to suit my taste.
Another way to think of this lag or kickout or what ever name works to illustrate in your mind what is going on tieh the SwayFighter hitches is to think of a car going around a curve. If you steer smoothly so as to follow the road you can go around a given curve at a given safe speed. But if you wait too long after entering the curve to steer into the curve you have to steer move violently and cannot take the curve as fast. We all know that if you steer into the curve early you can take it faster. Late steering will cause a wipe out on a curve that could have been easily traversed if the steering had occured in time. With the sway fighters, your trailer is always steering late and by the time it catches up the TV is trying to staighten up or go the other way etc. It is just a matter of degree as to whether it is "steering too late"
85AllegroSam wrote: ---As far as the Hensley not changing the laws of physics, that is true enough. It does not change the laws but rather it changes the physics. That is, it changes the effective pivot point of the TT to the TV so that the sway is not initiated. Any hitch that pivots rear of the TV axle, causes the TT to swing initially in the opposite direction the TV was turned. The further the pivot is behind the TV axle the greater the swing in the wrong direction. So there you are making a quick turn to the left and the trailer initially kicks out to the right relative to the TV. Literally you are wagging the trailer. With a hitch ball close to the rear axle the wag is small and with a hitch a long way from the axle the wag is larger.
How much "wag" are we talking about here?
Let's assume with a conventional hitch the ball coupler is located
65" behind the differential of the TV and the wheelbase of the TV is 130". Let's also assume the TV is moving at 60 mph and the driver makes a "quick turn" to the left.
For the above conditions with a conventional hitch, how far does the trailer initially kick out to the right relative to the TV?
Now change from a conventional hitch to a Hensley Arrow. With the HA, how far would the trailer initially kick out to the right relative to the TV?
Ron
Quick answer. The Hensley Arrow/ProPride 3P does not kick out at all. It actually kicks in, instantly. It steers the trailer instantly into the turn just like a fifth wheel does. That is why I call it a sway eliminator. It does not set up the sway equation.
I don't know how much the sway fighters kick out. Whatever it is, it is what causes the sway we are talking about.
dodge guy wrote: I don`t fight sway, I eliminated it! how? by properly loading my TT and TV and correctly setting up my WD hitch. I use the Dual Cam to insure it does stay stable if it ever did decide to sway.
The HA is a great hitch! but it is not "needed" by everyone! the downfall to the Hensley is the people and the DVD that make it look invincible to sway.
The Hensley does not defeat the laws of physics!
I don't have one yet, but with the design of the Hensley or ProPride it would PHYSICALLY(speaking of physics) be impossible for it to sway. It appears to me that it is virtually locked in a straight line until the TV forced it out... Any HA or PP owns please correct me if I'm wrong. All I can go by is discriptions, pictures and videos. you are eliminating that hinge point while traveling down the road.
It is not simple to understand the Hensley/ProPride. Especially by looking at pictures. Suffice it to say you are not locked in a straight line. The linkages in the hitch actually steer the trailer into the turn like a fifth wheel does. If you watch one going down the road closely you might actually think the thing is floating around behind the TV but what is actually occuring is the trailer is being steered in the diretion in needs to be steered to stay on track with the TV. Once you understood it and you have a very big trailer you will want one. It solves so many concerns with towing.
One of the problems most of you are having to live with is the Hensley PR tries to make is sound like some kind of magic that only they have. It is not magic, it is not a miracle, it is simply an engineering approach to solving the problem of steering a trailer that is attached behind a TV instead of on it. And it works and it does not have to cost as much as it does. The ProPride 3P is attacking the cost problem.
dodge guy wrote: I don`t fight sway, I eliminated it! how? by properly loading my TT and TV and correctly setting up my WD hitch. I use the Dual Cam to insure it does stay stable if it ever did decide to sway.
The HA is a great hitch! but it is not "needed" by everyone! the downfall to the Hensley is the people and the DVD that make it look invincible to sway.
The Hensley does not defeat the laws of physics!
I don't have one yet, but with the design of the Hensley or ProPride it would PHYSICALLY(speaking of physics) be impossible for it to sway. It appears to me that it is virtually locked in a straight line until the TV forced it out... Any HA or PP owns please correct me if I'm wrong. All I can go by is discriptions, pictures and videos. you are eliminating that hinge point while traveling down the road.
It is not simple to understand the Hensley/ProPride. Especially by looking at pictures. Suffice it to say you are not locked in a straight line. The linkages in the hitch actually steer the trailer into the turn like a fifth wheel does. If you watch one going down the road closely you might actually think the thing is floating around behind the TV but what is actually occuring is the trailer is being steered in the diretion in needs to be steered to stay on track with the TV. Once you understood it and you have a very big trailer you will want one. It solves so many concerns with towing.
One of the problems most of you are having to live with is the Hensley PR tries to make is sound like some kind of magic that only they have. It is not magic, it is not a miracle, it is simply an engineering approach to solving the problem of steering a trailer that is attached behind a TV instead of on it. And it works and it does not have to cost as much as it does. The ProPride 3P is attacking the cost problem.
When I refered to it as being locked I was moreless saying that you can push side to side on the most rear corner of the TV or the most forward corner of the TT and not get any hinging type motion as you would on a normal ball type hitch
seb503 wrote: When I refered to it as being locked I was moreless saying that you can push side to side on the most rear corner of the TV or the most forward corner of the TT and not get any hinging type motion as you would on a normal ball type hitch
Seb503 is absolutely correct. Unlike a conventional hitch, the HA's struts prevent the ball coupler from pivoting on the ball. However, the HA's linkage does not prevent the TT from yawing relative to the TV. The HA's linkage simply moves the pivot point to a different location.
A semi-trailer is free to swing relative to its TV. The trailer simply pivots about the pin. If a gust of wind hits the trailer, the trailer will swing relative to the TV.
A fifth-wheel trailer is free to swing relative to its TV. The trailer simply pivots about its pin.
A PullRite-coupled trailer is free to swing relative to its TV. The trailer simply pivots about the PR's fixed pivot point.
A HA-coupled trailer is free to swing relative to its TV. The HA-equipped trailer pivots about a variable pivot point which has been called the "Virtual Pivot Point" (VPP).
None of the above mentioned hitches have the ability to "lock up" and prevent a trailer from yawing relative to its tow vehicle. As seb503 has indicated, if you push laterally on a HA hitch, you will not perceive any hinging type motion. But, the fact that a hinge does not exist at the ball coupler does not mean that a hinge (pivot) point does not exist. The linkage simply moves the pivot point closer to the TV's rear axle.
The forward projection of the pivot point to a location closer to the TV's rear axle is the reason a semi-trailer, a 5er, a PR, and an HA all have better sway control ability than does a conventional hitch. The closer the pivot point is to the rear axle, the better is the sway control.
There is nothing magical about the operation of the Hensley Arrow. The HA is a nifty application of a four-bar linkage; but as with any other four-bar linkage, there is no mechanism for making the linkage "lock up". Fortunately, the HA's linkage doesn't have to "lock up" for the hitch to function. All the HA needs to do is to project the pivot point forward and that's all it does.
85AllegroSam wrote: Quick answer. The Hensley Arrow/ProPride 3P does not kick out at all. It actually kicks in, instantly. It steers the trailer instantly into the turn just like a fifth wheel does. That is why I call it a sway eliminator. It does not set up the sway equation.
The HA does not steer the TT into the turn just like a fifth wheel does. The 5er's pivot point (the pin) remains at a fixed location approximately over the center of the TV's rear axle. A 5er tracks well to the inside of its TV's path, causing some people to run over curbs.
When a TV with a HA-equipped TT turns to the right, the HA's Virtual Pivot Point (VPP) immediately begins to move rearward and to the LEFT relative to the TV. When a relative yaw angle of approximately 3.9 degrees is reached, the VPP has moved rearward about 23" and to the left about 18" from its straight-ahead location. Some HA owners claim that their TT actually tracks farther to the outside of the turn than does a conventionally-hitched TT. It is not physically possible for the HA to make its TT steer just like a 5er or a PullRite-equipped TT would.
Quote: I don't know how much the sway fighters kick out. Whatever it is, it is what causes the sway we are talking about.
The amount of "kick out" for a conventionally-hitched TT might be on the order of 1" during an extreme lane change maneuver. The HA's VPP during a similar maneuver might move laterally, to the outside of the turn, up to 18".
Fortunately, the amount of "kick out" is not what determines whether sway will happen. One of the primary factors which determine whether sway will happen is the location of the pivot point (ball coupler for conventional hitch) or VPP (for the HA) relative to the TV's rear axle. When a TV/TT is moving straight ahead, the HA's VPP is about 54" forward of the ball. That's why a HA is much better at controlling sway.
You can find another discussion of "kick out" (a.k.a. "jerking") in this thread.
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