I noticed the post that says formaldehyde is "bad." Says who? The folks making such statements apparently have never looked at the research. What happens is a parroting of "anti" hysteria. The hysteria is fueled by some campgrounds that have inadequate systems to handle the volume of waste. It is much easier/cheaper to put up signs blaming their problems on formaldehyde rather than re-designing their systems. Trailer life did a study about a decade ago and found that formaldehyde becomes inactive only a short time after entering the system. The GS publication did a similar study a few years back and also concluded that formaldhyde does no harm when used properly. Try the FAQs at the Thetford site. Afterall they probably made your toilet. I've been dumping my tanks into my septic system for years with no ill effects. (I just dumped today) A few ounces of "blue stuff" in 45 gallons of waste is such a dilution ratio that the stuff would have to be plutonium to have lingering effects. If the "blue stuff" was as dangerous as is sometimes claimed, the "trigger happy" "ban-o-matics" at the EPA would have banned it looooong ago. I have always thought it odd that formaldehyde was used for years and nobody put up any signs. Then when formaldehyde free products hit the market, all sorts of anti-formaldehyde rhetoric became common. Coincidence?
The Geo (or anything else that relies on lots of water) is a silly idea for those of us who boondock or dry camp. If one doesn't boondock, who needs chemicals in the first place? As others in this post have stated, the chemical that really works, in any weather, is the "blue stuff" with formaldehyde. If you're on full hookups: use nothing or a "feel good" chemical and lots of water. It won't matter.
navycranes wrote: We switched to eco-friendly chemicals because many of the campgrounds we stay at do not want you using formaldehyde based chemicals. This is because they are on septic systems and the formaldehyde causes them to back up..
Can someone please explain how a CG knows what you have in your black tank?
They would have to stand over each camper when they dumped and hold the sewer hose 'above' the hole to see what came out.
31 ft Four Winds
Chevy Tracker 4x4 BlueOx Aventa LX We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned,
so as to have the life that is waiting for us.
rolnrolnroln wrote: I noticed the post that says formaldehyde is "bad." Says who? What happens is a parroting of "anti" hysteria.
AMEN! It starts out with the "Eco-Nazis." This "Earth First" garbage and "Carbon off-set tax" stuff is a joke! I lump the formaldehyde-critisism with all the "green-ghestapo" bunch.
rolnrolnroln wrote: ...that formaldhyde does no harm when used properly. ...A few ounces of "blue stuff" in 45 gallons of waste is such a dilution ratio that the stuff would have to be plutonium to have lingering effects.
I couldn't agree more.
rolnrolnroln wrote: If the "blue stuff" was as dangerous as is sometimes claimed, the "trigger happy" "ban-o-matics" at the EPA would have banned it looooong ago.
You're absolutely correct! I for one own a business that is considered a "Toxic waste generater" company. We primarily do work for Aerospace and military entities. (It's a necessary "evil," but someone's gotta do it). Anyway, we are sooooo closely monitored by the EPA with our chemicals that go down the sewer LEGALLY, that if formaldehyde black tank chemical was truely bad stuff, IT WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE DUMPED INTO PUBLIC SEWER SYSTEMS DIRECTLY FROM OUR RV BLACK TANKS!!!!
For example, some of my company's chemicals are actually dumped into the puplic sewer system! Yes, you read correctly. However, BEFORE it's dumped down OUR sewer lines, it goes through our company's EXTENSIVE "chemical waste treatment-plant." Our treatment equipment is so H-E-A-V-I-L-Y R-E-G-U-L-A-T-E-D by our local County, State and EPA people. It's tested, re-tested and finally tested again, continually before it goes into the public sewer lines legally!!! On a DAILEY basis to boot!!!!! You don't see that with formaldehyde laced black tank chemicals that we all pour down the sewer lines do you?
So, this verifys that when us campers (you and me) dump the pretty blue formaldehyde down the sewers with absolutely NO PRE-SEWER TREATMENT whatsoever, the EPA is NOT concerned! Niether am I.
Translation: It's not as bad as the "planet-is-melting" crowd would have you and I belive.
rolnrolnroln wrote: I have always thought it odd that formaldehyde was used for years and nobody put up any signs. Then when formaldehyde free products hit the market, all sorts of anti-formaldehyde rhetoric became common. Coincidence?
I don't think so.
rolnrolnroln wrote: The Geo (or anything else that relies on lots of water) is a silly idea for those of us who boondock or dry camp. If one doesn't boondock, who needs chemicals in the first place? As others in this post have stated, the chemical that really works, in any weather, is the "blue stuff" with formaldehyde.
I couldn't agree with you more! Finally a breath of fresh (formaldehyde-filled) air!
> I noticed the post that says formaldehyde is
> "bad." Says who?
Well, in the case of formaldehyde used in making plywood, Japan and the European Union and . . . China.
> The hysteria is fueled by some campgrounds that
> have inadequate systems to handle the volume of
> waste. It is much easier/cheaper to put up signs
> blaming their problems on formaldehyde rather
> than re-designing their systems.
If the formaldehyde didn't cause the problem, then prohibiting its use won't solve the problem. How does putting up signs blaming formaldehyde get them anywhere?
> Trailer life did a study about a decade ago and
> found that formaldehyde becomes inactive only a
> short time after entering the system. The GS
> publication did a similar study a few years back
> and also concluded that formaldhyde does no harm
> when used properly.
Do you mean Good Sam when you say "GS"? Trailer Life and Good Sam are part of the same company.
And if formaldehyde becomes inactive only a short time after entering the system, why is it necessary to use it "properly" in order for it to do no harm? If it's safe, why can't you just use it?
> Try the FAQs at the Thetford site. Afterall they
> probably made your toilet.
But the toilet has nothing to do with the holding tanks. That's like taking the advice of the manufacturer of the gas cap on my car as to what octane fuel to use.
And if the gas cap manufacturer recommended high octane fuel and sold an octane booster, I'd be a little suspicious. And if it sold the #1 selling octane booster of all time? I'd be really suspicious.
And guess what . . . Thetford sells formaldehyde holding tank treatments. In the product description, Thetford says, "Aqua-Kem is the #1 selling holding tank deodorant of all time." No wonder they claim formaldehyde is safe. They have a big dog in that fight.
Oh, they also sell RV toilet paper. Not surprisingly, the FAQ says:
"Should I use a special RV tissue?"
"Yes. Rapid breakdown of toilet tissue helps prevent clogs - an issue when dumping an RV holding tank."
I'm assuming that you use the special toilet paper, since it's what Thetford recommends. How do you account for people who have never used a special toilet paper and have never had a clog?
> The Geo (or anything else that relies on lots of
> water) is a silly idea for those of us who boondock
> or dry camp.
Why? The Geo method needs lots of water only for rinsing the tanks. That has nothing to do with dry camping.
> If one doesn't boondock, who needs chemicals in
> the first place?
Why are chemicals necessary when boondocking? It's the same holding tanks, subjected to the same outdoor temperatures, eventually being dumped when the tank is full or almost full.
"Well, in the case of formaldehyde used in making plywood, Japan and the European Union and . . . China."
Uhmmm... when did we switch to construction materials and foreign countries? I, for one, have never flushed plywood down my TT toilet.
"If the formaldehyde didn't cause the problem, then prohibiting its use won't solve the problem. How does putting up signs blaming formaldehyde get them anywhere?"
It is the perfect low/no cost answer to an inadequate septic system that occasionally causes problems when the temps leave en masse and the more permanent folks are left with a mess. Rather than fix the actual problem, just put up a sign. If nothing goes wrong for a while, it's because the owner has gotten rid of formaldehyde. On those occasions when problems occur, just blame it on somebody sneaking in an untraceable, un-findable, unprovable (at least by any of the locals) chemical. Since everybody KNOWS formaldehyde causes septic problems, there is instant credibility. And the music goes 'round and 'round.
"Trailer Life and Good Sam are part of the same company."
And this has what to do with anything? I don't know that TL and Good Sam's Highways publication were under the same umbrella a decade or more ago. Even if so, You are putting up the proverbial "straw man" defense. Unless you can show that two different magazines used exactly the same research techs and these people (including the writers) were all pressured by the parent company(s) to produce two articles making similar findings, then you have no point. Why would a publishing firm care about formaldehyde in the first place? Oh... let me guess, they are in cahoots with Thetford and the makers of formaldehyde.
"If it's safe, why can't you just use it?"
I almost skipped this one, but... Anything is harmful if you get enough of it. A local prisoner tried to kill himself recently by drinking water. It almost worked. Something about depleting salts or something. If someone loaded up a tanker truck of formaldehyde and emptied it into a park's septic system, it would, no doubt, have negative effects. "Blue stuff" is not pure formaldehyde, so it is diluted before being added to 45 gallons of waste. Proper use simply means as per the instructions.
"But the toilet has nothing to do with the holding tanks."
Really? Where does the poop in your RV go when you flush?
"And guess what . . . Thetford sells formaldehyde holding tank treatments."
Yup. And two formaldehyde-free treatments. And the point would be? More paranoia along the lines of: they can't possibly be correct as they have an "interest?" If you read the entirety of the FAQs and the sections on formaldehyde, you'll find more evidence that the formaldehyde hype is just that... hype. You don't have to believe them because they sell one formaldehyde based product, look at the information and compare it with what comes from other sources.
"The Geo method needs lots of water only for rinsing the tanks. That has nothing to do with dry camping."
Truly, there are variations posted on the Geo method. I was probably painting with a "too broad a brush" by using GEO as a shorthand for chemical-less, "lots of water" maintenance ideas. The GEO posts I've seen often end with: "and use lots of water when you flush." It would appear from the posts that the major factor in choosing not to use any chemicals is: "dilution." I don't pretend to have read all the GEO posts as that system is not for me. A "lots of water" technique, (whatever you want to call it) is great if A. you have water for that purpose and B. someplace to dump the tank when it quickly (comparatively) gets full. When dry camping for an extended time, I don't even flush in the traditional sense. I use a sprayer head to force the solids into the tank. I learned this trick from owning Airstreams which used to come from the factory with such sprayers. I realize I am courting a "pyramid" but have not had that problem in 30+ years of camping.
> Uhmmm... when did we switch to construction materials
> and foreign countries? I, for one, have never flushed
> plywood down my TT toilet.
You asked who says formaldehyde is bad, and I gave some examples of who thinks formaldehyde is bad. The EU is pretty easy to predict, but China?
> "But the toilet has nothing to do with the holding tanks."
>
> Really? Where does the poop in your RV go when you flush?
It goes right through the toilet, no different from if it were going through a hole. That's why I don't see why a toilet manufacturer would have specialized knowledge on something that goes on in the holding tank. Like I said, the toilet has as much to do with the holding tanks as the gas cap on a car has to do with what octane of fuel to put in the gas tank.
So Thetford's claim of any sort of knowledge on holding tank chemicals derives from the fact that it sells them. And its #1 seller "of all time has" formaldehyde in it.
> "Why are chemicals necessary when boondocking?"
>
> They're not if you only camp when it's -20.
Again, what is the difference between boondocking and full hookup camping when it comes to dumping the holding tanks? Are you saying hot weather makes a difference? It's the same temperature whether someone is boondocking or on full hookups.
But hey--if you want to continue using formaldehyde, that's your right. I can't do anything about it, but I can refuse to use it myself and hope it mitigates the effect of those who do.
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