I had the same question back when I was trying to figure out which camper I was going to buy. I think the answer is, with Outfitters basement the door is plenty tall enough. No need for a door with a hinge in it. Getting in and out of the camper really is a non-issue for my wife and I. I'm 6' and she is 5'8''.
Hello Don!!
2007 F-350 SRW 6.0L Auto CC SB 4X4
2006 Outfitter Apex 8, 220W Solar and 3 AGM's
Hey does this mean I'm special? My mom always told me I was.
I bet you want to be my friend now, huh Don? Well too bad, I ate all my chocolate ice cream already. LOL
As to the original question, this has actually been discussed on here before.
The problem with a fold-up two piece door is that it creates more problems then it solves. The increased ease of ingress/egress is offset by an almost total loss of structural integrity.
A pop-up TC is already at a disadvantage structurally compared to a hardside since the solid attachment of the walls to the roof in a hardside GREATLY stiffens everything up.
On a pop-up the only thing connecting the left and right sides together in the rear is the thin header panel above the door. If this is removed to allow for a fold-up door even that little bit of structural integrity is now lost. On a pop-up when the roof is raised it's weight is transfered through the lifting mechanism into the walls and the mechanism is actually using the walls to push against as it goes up. With the removal of the door header panel, when the roof is raised the lifting mechanism has no real solid structure to push against and will force the walls apart. Adding weight to the roof via items such as an A/C unit or storage pod will greatly exacerbate this and carried far enough can lead to structural failure. Even the downward pull from the tiedowns will be enough to bow the sides outward.
To illustrate my point, take a cardboard box and tape the lid flaps closed. Now try to distort its shape. Don't gorilla it since it is only cardboard after all but you will find it is relatively hard to distort it. Now un-tape the lid flaps and you will find that it is much easier to get the box to twist itself out of square but that the sides don't flop outward. Next cut a hole in one side to simulate the door (leaving a piece above the "door" to tie the sides together) and you will find that it is still roughly as strong as the open box. Finally remove the piece above your door tyeing the sides together and see how the box pretty much looses ALL structural integrity.
Something else that has been mentioned about a fold-up door is that it is necessary to raise the roof (or at least lift up on it several inches) to open the door during even a quick roadside stop since it extends up under the roof's edge. Not a huge problem for an average sized man but someone like my wife (4'10"/95lbs) or a kid would have problems if no one was there to assist.
Concerning Outfitter's door size, while the Caribou does have the smaller pop-up style door (though it is slightly taller then most due to the under-bed storage increasing the wall height slightly), the Apex (with the additional height of the basement) has as tall a door as I have seen on some hardsides. Though it is admittedly not as tall as the tallest of those, it is still high enough to allow for entering the camper with only a slight bowing of the head instead of the crawling maneuver required by many pop-ups.
2007 F350,SC,LB,4x4,6.0/Auto,35" tires,16.5 Warn,Buckstop bumpers
2007 Outfitter Apex9.5,270W solar,SolarBoost2000e,2 H2K's,2KW inverter,2 20lb LP on slide out tray,4 Lifeline AGM bats,Tundra fridge
95 Bounder 28' ClassA sold
91 Jamboree 21' ClassC sold
Steve_in_29 wrote: Hey does this mean I'm special? My mom always told me I was.
I bet you want to be my friend now, huh Don? Well too bad, I ate all my chocolate ice cream already. LOL
As to the original question, this has actually been discussed on here before.
The problem with a fold-up two piece door is that it creates more problems then it solves. The increased ease of ingress/egress is offset by an almost total loss of structural integrity.
A pop-up TC is already at a disadvantage structurally compared to a hardside since the solid attachment of the walls to the roof in a hardside GREATLY stiffens everything up.
On a pop-up the only thing connecting the left and right sides together in the rear is the thin header panel above the door. If this is removed to allow for a fold-up door even that little bit of structural integrity is now lost. On a pop-up when the roof is raised it's weight is transfered through the lifting mechanism into the walls and the mechanism is actually using the walls to push against as it goes up. With the removal of the door header panel, when the roof is raised the lifting mechanism has no real solid structure to push against and will force the walls apart. Adding weight to the roof via items such as an A/C unit or storage pod will greatly exacerbate this and carried far enough can lead to structural failure. Even the downward pull from the tiedowns will be enough to bow the sides outward.
To illustrate my point, take a cardboard box and tape the lid flaps closed. Now try to distort its shape. Don't gorilla it since it is only cardboard after all but you will find it is relatively hard to distort it. Now un-tape the lid flaps and you will find that it is much easier to get the box to twist itself out of square but that the sides don't flop outward. Next cut a hole in one side to simulate the door (leaving a piece above the "door" to tie the sides together) and you will find that it is still roughly as strong as the open box. Finally remove the piece above your door tyeing the sides together and see how the box pretty much looses ALL structural integrity.
Something else that has been mentioned about a fold-up door is that it is necessary to raise the roof (or at least lift up on it several inches) to open the door during even a quick roadside stop since it extends up under the roof's edge. Not a huge problem for an average sized man but someone like my wife (4'10"/95lbs) or a kid would have problems if no one was there to assist.
Concerning Outfitter's door size, while the Caribou does have the smaller pop-up style door (though it is slightly taller then most due to the under-bed storage increasing the wall height slightly), the Apex (with the additional height of the basement) has as tall a door as I have seen on some hardsides. Though it is admittedly not as tall as the tallest of those, it is still high enough to allow for entering the camper with only a slight bowing of the head instead of the crawling maneuver required by many pop-ups.
Good post Steve. The cardboard box illustration really clarifies it.
Sorry Steve, I have been to Southern MO. on a fishing trip.
Ran into a guy with one of these hinged doors. It was my contentions also, that the two piece rear door with no header above that the normal pop-ups have weaken the two walls. His door bucks remained square with the door. Indicating to me that the walls have not moved, door was tight. He said it did not leak, and sealed as good as the soft sides were. I am 6'2, and compared to my Jayco pop-up that door sure is nice. Ever older & some of the not so older, pop-up that I have visited realize that that door is a head ache and on the inside there is a pad going across the inside header. I have pop my neck several times, hitting it. We discussed his walls and came to the conclusion that they must have strengthen the corners. Alto we did not/could not see any cross bridging from the inside of the two back corners. Thinking about your post and your view on their progressive thinking on the Outfitters and as versed as you are. Then viewing their site on their campers and what they have done, it came to mind, "I wonder why not". Steve I believe that the problem you described of the possible weaker walls was solved. It surely isn't/wasn't surmountable.
The Outfitter's door (at 63") is within an inch or so of it and doesn't need to resort to the added complication and leak potential of the fold up rear wall.
On Edit:
Also the Palomino site clearly shows that when lowered, the top extends over the sidewalls as far down as the bottom of the softwall attachment (no softwall is visible in the closed pics). This means the roof's rear edge covers the top of the door (follow the line across the rear from the bottom of the softwall on either side) and thus has to be lifted out of the way to open the door if the roof is down. IIRC the Bronco's door is something like 65" tall, so by giving up an inch or two Outfitter gains greater simplicity, weather tightness without compromising ease of use. I am 5'8" and a quick duck of my head as I walk into the camper is all that's required.
* This post was
edited 07/17/08 10:56pm by Steve_in_29 *
BradW of course the discussion is up to you on how far it can go on this subject, I think that a pop-up truck campers may be to the new just getting into TC market a plus due to their low center, low wind resistance profile, 1/2 ton truck capacity. etc. So without carrying to to much more extremes..
Steve,
Since I don't know anyone with a Outfitter, or haven't seen any one with one locally at a campground to see their campers. And in their web site video's it did not, as far as I saw, show their back door I had no reference to the dimensions that you are referring to. (The one that you showed was a hard side, no??? ) If I am right in not seeing this It might be prudent for them to note this it in their advertisement. I know from reading your post that your a great believer in boondocking. On the opposite end of the advantage of the TC mode, their is in a duel purpose in towing a boat, AND having your living quarters right there in most cases at the states very well kept up campground launch site and boat slips. At a very reasonable price I might also menchion. So in getting together to chat as fisherman do, I can assure you that the two things that keep re-accruing in pop-ups is lack of storage and that #@^&*%$ rear door. This of course is a plus side on the talk, and in reality of selling their choices, on those with 3/4 & ton trucks, with 10-11 1/2 foot hard sides. Been there numerous times. BUT, for those young gun ho's just getting started out here in families, with maybe or maybe soon looking to buy and maybe used a, 1/2 ton truck (where the truck big four offer all their rebates/cheaper prices), with very little disposable income, who have dreams of becoming the next Kevan Van Dam. This is where these TC pop-up offers them a hug plus. And then to be able to take the wife along with their kids to talk to other guys wives while he out on the water, well that even makes it sweeter, for all. He is still trying to go fishing on an ever depleting budget. She does not want to be left at home. Then there is the idea that Outfitter offers with that slide out bed, now that has a huge plus, with in discussion of adding some kind of webbing to the ceiling. I might say here that motel rooms against TC's and their advantages, that is what the TC industry these days should tout loudly. Whether its a young man's dream and desire to fish, boondock, what ever, or just plain love to camp these lighter weight TC may be the answer. In my case and adding my points to the conversation, I just have to agree with them when they say what about that midget back door, and coming out hunched and backwards trusting for feel of steps, not being able to see and are they there.
The rear picture is with the camper closed up (top down), and it shows how one can enter without popping up the top.
I had a Four Wheel popup camper for 9 years and I only smacked my head on the door jamb one time, and learned my lesson. The scar isn't visble anymore, it's covered up by the new scar I got from standing up from hitch work and smacking the open door on my Bigfoot.
I guess that you can hurt yourself regardless of design if you don't pay a minor amount of attention to the surroundings
2006 Bigfoot 9.4 LB 2500 series. Rides on a 2007 Ford F350 6.0 SRW Torqshift
John H wrote: ....I think that a pop-up truck campers may be to the new just getting into TC market a plus due to their low center, low wind resistance profile, 1/2 ton truck capacity. etc. So without carrying to to much more extremes..
Unlike the pop-up trailers, a pop-up TC isn't really an entry level camper. They are mostly a niche market for owners that have specialized needs for as small/light a camper (in whatever size range) as they can get. Though you did list some of their many pluses.
Quote: Steve,
Since I don't know anyone with a Outfitter, or haven't seen any one with one locally at a campground to see their campers. And in their web site video's it did not, as far as I saw, show their back door I had no reference to the dimensions that you are referring to. (The one that you showed was a hard side, no??? ) If I am right in not seeing this It might be prudent for them to note this it in their advertisement.
No that is the back end of my Apex9.5 which is a pop-up TC.
As you might have seen there are various levels of pop-up TC's on the market, ranging from VERY basic (little more then a better tent) to fully equipped ones with every amenity found in hardsides with the individual makers prices reflecting that range. Outfitters are at the upper end of what's available in pop-ups. Even so they are within the price range of most buyers since no option blocks need to be checked for the buyer to get a usable camper right off the lot.
If you would like to see an Outfitter call Bob (the owner) and see if he can connect you with an camper owner near you for a walk through. Most owners are more then happy to do so.
I haven't noticed any maker that gives the dimensions of their doors other then some that state "full size" (which is a subjective term). I will forward the suggestion on to Bob at Outfitter though as it is a valid point.
Quote: I can assure you that the two things that keep re-accruing in pop-ups is lack of storage and that #@^&*%$ rear door.
While those are in fact valid concerns with the majority of pop-up TCs, they are not applicable to an Outfitter. As I already noted the door is taller due to their design and there is more then enough storage space in them (more so then even some hardsides on the market). For example, even during a 10day boondocking trip into Baja with my previous Apex8 we didn't fill every available space in it. Also when we upgraded to our current Apex9.5 the things we removed from the 8 prior to trading it in took up a large portion of the floorspace in our spare bedroom.
Outfitter obviously has no control over how other makers of pop-up TCs design their products but I think you will find that they have more then addressed your concerns in their own product line. And done so while keeping the design as usable and simple as possible.
Quote: Then there is the idea that Outfitter offers with that slide out bed, now that has a huge plus, with in discussion of adding some kind of webbing to the ceiling.
Another good idea that I will forward on to Bob as well.
As for the rest of your post I whole heartedly agree with what you are putting forth about the myriad advantages of TCs.
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