Quote: I wish him all the best, but I'm also not sorry to see that his company isn't continuing to take good people's dollars in return for poor quality products that require so much extra time, effort, and expense to prop up.
PERFECTLY PUT!!!! Dave. I know I couldn't have said it better
In the end, his loyal customers couldn't afford to continue to support him or his company. You can't piss off that many customers year after year and expect to stay in business.
EXACTLY!!
No company will survive with that attitude.
Sorry to see them go, but hopefully the rest of the industry will wake up and produce better quality products.
Bob J
2008 GMC 2500HD 4X4 Dizzle CC LB
2004 Thor Wanderer Wagon 247WTB
2006 TE450 Husky
2007 Rhino Sport Edition
MEMBER AMA and CORVA
I have a lot of respect for what he was able to accomplish. He created some amazing products and was the keystone of an industry that has become a way of life for so many of us.
In the end, his loyal customers couldn't afford to continue to support him or his company. You can't piss off that many customers year after year and expect to stay in business.
I wish him all the best, but I'm also not sorry to see that his company isn't continuing to take good people's dollars in return for poor quality products that require so much extra time, effort, and expense to prop up.
I'm not sure of all the reasons this has happened to WW. I'm also not totally sure we can totally blame Mark. I have and had many issues with our dealer, as did many others. I believe giant rv was "in bed" with WW. I believe at one time the dealers were selling more trailers than WW was able to produce. I remember seeing threads around here and other sites about the frustration people had waiting many, many weeks for their coach.
I believe there were many yahoo's who called themselves salesman, who made false promises to make the sale at the dealers. I also believe there were many yahoos that were working for WW on the "professional" end.I've seen 'em at the rv show in pomona, at the repair facility in Upland & unfortunately I had to deal with them on our current coach.
I remember when we got our '03 slc, the dealer made false promises. Frustrated on the day we were going to pick up our "special ordered" rv we left it there. Immediately monday morning I was talking to Mark about my issues. He was a man of his word and made the trailer right, even when it was the dealer that screwed up'.
I remember when we had our '97 WW, a few years of owning the trailer I was at the WW display at some sports show in anaheim. I was talking to some guy, he asked me how we liked our trailer etc. I told him we had a couple issues, it was Mark I later found out that I was talking to. He told me to bring the trailer in and he'd take care of it. He did, they fixed the small issues, but to me they were big, at no charge.
I believe the the internet didn't help. People very rarely made positive posts in the last few years. I believe they're were many what I would call success stories that happened. But it's hard to see 'em when people are flooding the boards with the same ole rhetoric & negativity. Some threads were play by play of the events as they took place, minute by minute details of their experience. Hey, believe me I totally understand their frustration, because I had it to on our current WW, which is also our third. I admit, from time to time I did get caught up in that negativity but in the end it was WW who was the one that was going to make the issues right, not the internet.
Mark and WW contributed a-lot to our sport, they did many good things.
I highly doubt Mark will read this, but if you do. Thanks. Thanks for the many, many memories in the last 12 years. All the family trips, numerous thanksgiving dinners we've had in our coaches, and all the friends we've made along the way.
I will have to admit that I was one of the ones that has made negative posts. The reason is that when I started getting holes in the side and front from the inside out when it was only 1 1/2 years old, and WW telling me that there's nothing they would do about it.
Come on folks, you have to stand behind your products and keep your customers happy!!! If you don't, well I guess we are seeing what happens.
Don
2007 Dodge Ram 3500HD 4X4 CTD 6.7
2007 Raptor 3612DS
Banshees....
#1 2004 Yamaha Dune Banshee Lot's of Mod's
#2 Hillshooter Banshee 4 mil cub
#3 Drag Banshee DMR Dagger Chassis 4mil Super Cub on alky
PsnRebel wrote: I'm also not totally sure we can totally blame Mark. I have and had many issues with our dealer, as did many others.
I don't hold any of the dealer issues against him.
I've read enough stories here (and had enough of my own personal experiences) to know that (A) 99% of the dealers are either incompetent or unethical and (B) a large percentage of the dealer horror stories posted on this site were due in some part to the inexperience of the customers and their inability to work through the layers of customer service bureaucracy.
I don't hold any of that against Mark. Just the opposite. I've personally seen him bend over backwards to solve problems that were created (or at least exacerbated) by the dealers.
All that notwithstanding, he was the man at the top and I hold him accountable for the quality of the products that went out the door. You can't take people's money and deliver poor quality and expect to stay in business. It's a shame that his attention to quality came so late and coincided with the market downturn.
Hopefully the builders that survive this shakedown will be the strongest and most worthy. Some other companies will emerge as the leaders and I hope that they build good haulers.
Y-Guy wrote: Do keep in mind that Mark created much of what we now know as the Toy Hauler industry. He is, without a doubt and icon in the industry. I don't know enough of the facts to judge him, but I know enough to respect what he's done for the market today. Mark lived the lifestyle as well as ran a company, how many CEO's of RV companies went out and played with the same people that buy their product?
I have a lot of respect for what he was able to accomplish. He created some amazing products and was the keystone of an industry that has become a way of life for so many of us.
However, in spite of his good intentions, he lost touch with his employees and his customers. I believe that he did everything he could to do right by both (employees & customers), but the organization he built wasn't strong enough to pull it off.
I personally dealt with him many times. I contacted him on behalf of many members here who were having WW service issues. In every case, he either took care of their problems or quickly told them to pound sand (if they were out of line). That seemed pretty fair to me.
I wasn't as lucky when it came to my own trailer. They say that reasonable people can disagree. I gave him a bill for everything that it cost me to fix the cr@p that his people broke. He reimbursed me for most of it, but told me to take a hike for the rest of it. (We were within a couple hundred bucks though).
To me, that experience epitomized the problem with his company:
He had some horribly unskilled employees working for him who managed to break everything they touched.
He personally couldn't put himself in his customers' shoes to see how much frustration and expense he was putting his loyal fans through.
In the end, his loyal customers couldn't afford to continue to support him or his company. You can't piss off that many customers year after year and expect to stay in business.
I hope that Mark is able to learn from the events of the past few years and return to the market in a valuable way (if that's what he wants). I wish him all the best, but I'm also not sorry to see that his company isn't continuing to take good people's dollars in return for poor quality products that require so much extra time, effort, and expense to prop up.
Amen Brother..
Don't make it a habit on the Crow, it doesn't taste all that good... I've way to many servings of it..
2005 Nissan Titan CC SE 4x4, 2006 Weekend Warrior FS2300
2 Quads, 2 Motorcycle and a '06 Rhino
1 Patient Wife, 1 Crazy child, 1 sweet baby.
RIP Bubba and Toby, we love you.
PsnRebel wrote: I'm also not totally sure we can totally blame Mark. I have and had many issues with our dealer, as did many others.
I don't hold any of the dealer issues against him.
I don't hold any of that against Mark. Just the opposite. I've personally seen him bend over backwards to solve problems that were created (or at least exacerbated) by the dealers.
All that notwithstanding, he was the man at the top and I hold him accountable for the quality of the products that went out the door. You can't take people's money and deliver poor quality and expect to stay in business. It's a shame that his attention to quality came so late and coincided with the market downturn.
I didn't believe you were blaming Mark whole'ly. I didn't mean it that way. I was simply stating that there may be those that do, & I happened to have quoted you. Statements which I agree with.
Keep in mind folks, all is not lost. Your appliances should have the appliance manufacturers warranty behind them and don't forget that Ziemann is still in business if you have any frame issues.
I've always enjoyed my Warrior in spite of it's faults. It has kept me warm on cold nights down to 4 degrees at Red Mountain. It's given me a comfortable bed to sleep in. It's kept me cool on hot days. It's given me refuge from the wind, dust, rain and snow. It's given me a CLEAN toilet to use and a lot of nice hot showers. So I don't have a whole lot of complaints and I still have it for all of my future trips to the Desert Races. A little TLC and Elbow Grease on my part has kept it all working well.
I'm a satisfied customer, but sad that it came to this for the company, it's founder and employees. Sorry for those of you that may not have the skills to take care of your own issues with your trailer.
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