Here is my nickle, Hohenwald48 is the nearest to having the correct post. If the Manufacture did not receive the moneys for the TT then the MFG still own it. Getting a Lawyer now is too early. I would call the factory and ask if they have issued a Certificate of Orgin. To the dealer. Then I would ask if the lender received it from the dealer, And if the loan was to you and the TT was collateral. The BIG question is, Did he file Bankruptcy If so find if he was forced or he filed. The bankruptcy info will make a large difference
Before you left the lot the dealer gave you temporary registration with your DMV. What does that registration say? Take the temp registration to DMV and tell them you have not yet received your title and plates.
Wayne in San Jose
TV1:2002 Chevy 1500HD 4wd Crew Cab,Valley Odyssey brake ctlr,McKesh mirrors
TV2:2008 GMC 2500HD long bed 4wd Crew Cab,GMC brake ctlr,GMC mirrors
TT:Trailmanor 2720
Honda 2000
Yamaha WR250R,Polaris Sportsman 700 X2,Polaris Scrambler 500
A note to the folks who don't understand how registration works in Washington state.
The dealership sends the necessary docs to DOL (Department of Licensing). DOL creates the registration papers and WA title and sends them back to the dealer. The dealer then mails them to the appropriate folks. Don't ask me why DOL doesn't mail them directly.
I've already talked to DOL in Olympia (state capital) and they knew nothing of this dealer's predicament. Apparently there is no bankruptcy, yet. Both the DOL & dealer have offered me new temp tags--the trailer is a brand new 2009 that sat on the dealer's lot for less than 2 hours from delivery by the factory till we drove away with it. DOL has told us they will give us 45-day temp tags repeatedly as long as necessary while this gets sorted out. How that will work for our planned 4-5 month trip to Alaska next year could be interesting. Of course, if this is still going on then we will have progressed from 'interesting' to very boring and tedious.
* This post was
edited 07/18/08 10:00pm by SteveRankin *
Steve & C. J.
"Gracie" the Rough Collie & "Bo'sun" the Bichon Frise
With the court clerk in SE Washington: A 'show cause' hearing is scheduled for Monday afternoon. The are 3 couples that are the plaintiffs & the case has something to do with 'replevin', a legal term signifying the recovery by a person of goods unlawfully taken out of his or her possession, by means of a special form of legal process. Essentially that means that in some situations, a person is not able to execute 'self-help' repossession, so the alternative is replevin. I called the plaintiffs attorney office, but haven't received a call back.
With the dealer: Ever worsening RV sales conditions and over $70K in interest/flooring expenses collided in June resulting in his lender having his bank account seized. He said his attorney said that they have a fair chance of convincing the court to allow him to continue his business on at least some level.
This happened shortly after we took delivery and Northwood Mfg, the manufacturer of Arctic Fox has not been paid for our coach. Therefore, the legal owner of our coach is still Northwood. If the court allows the dealer to do business, including paying Northwood for our coach, then this will turn out to be little more than an interesting story. OTOH, if he doesn't pay Northwood, then they still own the TT.
Unfortunately, the issue of title and ownership is NOT nearly as simple as some folks would like to believe. Business often moves much faster than the supporting paperwork (title) and much happens based on established lines of credit and business relationship. This is really convenient and efficient most of the time, but when a business gets into a jam, things start getting very interesting.
I have seen a similar circumstance, but I work for the manufacturer. It doesn't matter if the manufacturer got paid or not, it is still your trailer. In our circumstance we had a machine builder who did not pay us for some equipment they bought. They in turn sold the equipment to the end user. Even though we were never paid for the equipment, it still legally belongs to the end user. The end user has a receipt for purchasing the equipment, as it was legally sold to them. The end user has sent the equipment in for repair, we still have to return it back to the customer. We actually do not give the end user any warranty, but we can not legally keep the equipment if they send it to us for repair.
You may have to get a lawyer to make it happen, but it is yours. About the only thing that could be in question is if the dealer had the legal right to sell the vehicle at the time of the sale. In other words, what was the timing of the court injunction? If at the time of the sale, the dealer had the legal right to sell it, then you own it. Note from what The Texan stated, that when reposesions occurred, it was because the seller did not have the legal right to sell the vehicle. If the dealer sold something that he did not have the right to sell at the time of the sale, then the dealer committed fraud. If the dealer did not commit fraud, then the vehicle is yours. Technically, if your purchase was made before any action was made by the manufacturer, the court order should not apply to your trailer.
One of the big problems with the court system is that it often is not about who is right or wrong, but what judge owes what lawyer what favor. I would suggest starting by getting your bank involved. The bank has the biggest lawyers and likely the manufacturer will not waste their time loosing a case to the bank.
Daveinet wrote: I have seen a similar circumstance, but I work for the manufacturer. It doesn't matter if the manufacturer got paid or not, it is still your trailer. In our circumstance we had a machine builder who did not pay us for some equipment they bought. They in turn sold the equipment to the end user. Even though we were never paid for the equipment, it still legally belongs to the end user. The end user has a receipt for purchasing the equipment, as it was legally sold to them. The end user has sent the equipment in for repair, we still have to return it back to the customer. We actually do not give the end user any warranty, but we can not legally keep the equipment if they send it to us for repair.
You may have to get a lawyer to make it happen, but it is yours. About the only thing that could be in question is if the dealer had the legal right to sell the vehicle at the time of the sale. In other words, what was the timing of the court injunction? If at the time of the sale, the dealer had the legal right to sell it, then you own it. Note from what The Texan stated, that when reposesions occurred, it was because the seller did not have the legal right to sell the vehicle. If the dealer sold something that he did not have the right to sell at the time of the sale, then the dealer committed fraud. If the dealer did not commit fraud, then the vehicle is yours. Technically, if your purchase was made before any action was made by the manufacturer, the court order should not apply to your trailer.
One of the big problems with the court system is that it often is not about who is right or wrong, but what judge owes what lawyer what favor. I would suggest starting by getting your bank involved. The bank has the biggest lawyers and likely the manufacturer will not waste their time loosing a case to the bank.
My hunch is that both Tenn Stud and Dave have the most accurate & complete understanding of the situation.
As far as we can tell the dealer's legal problems didn't occur until several days after we took delivery. A friend has a contact at the factory who checked on the status of our trailer on Thursday, June 5th. It was in the 'dispatch yard' ready to be shipped. We called the dealer and goaded them into moving quickly & even offered to pick it up ourselves at the factory. They contacted the factory who said they would not let us pick it up, but they would have it delivered the next day, even saying the driver would drive all night if necessary. We drove by the dealer about 2PM on Friday while doing some shopping and it wasnt' there, but when we drove back by at 3:30 it was. By 5:10 we'd gone home and swapped trucks, checked it out, done the paperwork & hitched up to drive to the state police scales. On Tuesday, we dropped it off at the dealer for a minor repair to some caulk--everything looked normal. The sales lot full of new rigs. A few days later we drove by again and we noticed the service crew loading a utility trailer from the service office/parts dept. But that was on the 2nd lot which had had a 'for sale' sign on it for a while, so we just took that to mean they were moving the service dept up the road to the main lot. The main sales lot was still full of new rigs. We left town the following Tuesday (17th) and returned on the 26th. While we were at the factory on June 19th getting a part, one of the managers mentioned to me that he heard our dealer was "in trouble". I didn't think that much of it, but I understand that now to mean that it hit the fan while we were on the road. It didn't occur to me today to ask the court clerk what the filing date was.
If so, then the dealer didn't do anything wrong by selling the trailer to us on June 6th. Since the factory still had the trailer on there property on the 5th and willingly released the trailer to him, it's clear that things were still normal when we took delivery. Which would mean the sale to us was completely legal and above board. DW & I compared our calendars to try to figure out which day we noticed that the new rigs were gone from the dealer's lot. We know we drove by on 6/27, 6/28, 6/30 and 7/2. We recall that things were normal on the first two dates, and everything gone on either 6/30 or 7/2, several weeks after we took delivery.
I tend to agree with Tenn Stud that it's too early to get an attorney. For one thing, the dealer has been quite candid with me & like I said before, we do believe he's an honest guy. For another thing, there is so little time before the court hearing on Monday at 3pm at the far corner of the state. What could an attorney do in the very few hours on Monday between talking with us and the hearing 300 miles away?
When I talked to the state yesterday, they made it somewhat clear that it was very possible wind up in a civil matter with the dealer--no one else--regarding getting the title.
Bankruptcy. According to both the court clerk and the dealer, this is not bankruptcy. It may evolve into that, but it's not there yet. The dealer tells me he wants to continue business selling used RVs and consignment sales.
The current thinking between DW & I is that we're going to wait and see what happens.
I know that you are wise to see what happens Monday. From what I read in your post it is NOT Bankruptcy Thank God on your behalf. What I read that 3 couples has ask for a cease and desist order from the court. If it was civil action it would be assigned a docket number by the clerk, Which you would have been told. My guess that there are some other people in the same situation as you. If it were me I would be at that hearing Monday or have someone there to know for sure what is happening. If the court hands down a cease and desist order it will most likely to go to bankruptcy. If you are sure that there are three couples that filed for a hearing that is going to be heard that quick, Then they are in the same situation as you, Or it would have been civil action. Then you are 2-3 year from a court hearing. I don't know WA law but, All states are very close to being the same on that type of law due to interstate trade. After the hearing if the court issues an order Use your banks lawyer. Do not fight it on your own! Your bank will help you.
After thought Ask your bank if they have a branch in the town where the hearing is being held. Ask if they will send someone to the hearing, That will be free to you, And you will have the correct information
Good Luck!!!!!!
This situation is not unique nor without precedence. This situation happens far more often than people are aware of. Usually it is eventually settled in the favor of the consumer as they are an innocent party. The OP has an advantage in this case as there is an approved loan in waiting and the unit was not paid for with cash.
The OP has contacted me and I will try to help him towards a satisfactory resolution. Most franchised new car and truck dealers are well financed and this situation is rare. In these times used car and smaller RV dealers can be suffering from a down market. It would be prudent for the consumer to exercise caution when paying cash for a vehicle purchase from a dealer they are not very familiar with. If paying cash, it is your right to ask for the tile and or MSO at the time of settlement. They can supply you with all the necessary paperwork to allow you to title the vehicle in your name and pay the taxes due. They may not like it and it may not be their normal way to do business but is well within your rights.
Today, I talked with one of the attorneys for a group of plaintiffs in eastern WA that I gather are in the same boat we're in.
It seems the dealer went 'out of trust' some time this year. Exactly when hasn't been determined yet, but his primary flooring finance company discovered it in mid to late June, a couple of weeks after we took delivery. The dealer has cleared up about half of the $1.8M and it's non known yet how much is available to clear up the remainder.
The dealer's attorney agreed to some stipulations yesterday, and is forwarding the dealer's books to the primary lender, so the hearing probably off.
It's not known at this time what the status of the MSO is, or which of his 3 finance companies might have been used to cover the PO to the manufacturer. I'll be making calls on Monday to find out the answers to those questions.
From what I've heard so far, it's likely that our lender received the the MSO from the manufacturer since they've apparently funded the loan. At least I'm assuming they actually funded the loan since they sent me a statement a few days ago.
I received the 'Dealer Complaint Form' from the Dept of Licensing today. Yesterday, the clerk at the DOL intimated that their investigation would be prompt and swift, but the attorney I talked to said they're backlogged for months because of the recent number business failures.
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