we have been playing with HHO gas production at work. using stainless steel plates the size of playing cards and 12 volts at 10-20 amps. seem to generate about a liter of gas per minute.When we first tried it we attempted to to light the gas emiting from an end of a 4 foot section of suction hose. It lit alright, it flashed back into the water container and blew the lid off of it. If you apply electricity to a series of plates submerged in water you will produce a hydrogen oxygen combination gas that burns very well. thats the easy part, knowing where to plug it in on your engine and how to regulate production, and safety systems that is the tough part and we are still working on that. we are doing this for our own benefit, not to sell and we have been using internet sources so far. please don't apply snake oil comments to everything you don't understand
The comment about physics, I think this is different simply because it is supplimenting the gasoline not replacing it. mechanics here can shed more light on this, I believe an alternator can produce 12 volts at XXX amps and they seem to produce more than the vehicle needs, so why not use some amperage to create HHO gas to supplement the combustion of gasoline? thats what we are trying.
firedawg182 wrote: please don't apply snake oil comments to everything you don't understand
Actually, I understand it very well, thank you.
I don't doubt that you are indeed producing hydrogen and oxygen from water. The process is called electrolysis. It is a well understood process. The point you are missing is that you have to input energy to make it work. You stated in your post that you are using electricity to produce the hydrogen and oxygen. My point, and the point of others and every chemist and physicist in the land, is that you will have to put more energy in (in the form of electricity) than you will obtain in the form of a flammable gas (hydrogen). Thus, in a closed loop system like a vehicle's engine, you will operate at a net LOSS of energy when you siphon power from the engine to drive electrolysis.
Your follow-up point about utilizing otherwise wasted energy is a valid one. If you can harness energy that is otherwise wasted by the engine, and use that energy to drive electrolysis, then you might end up with a real gain. Unfortunately, if your hypothesis is that alternators are producing excess energy that you can capture instead of wasting it, the reality is that there are far more efficient ways to solve that waste energy problem. What might be more fruitful is to find a way to capture excess thermal energy that is otherwise lost as hot exhaust gases and heat dissipation through the radiator, and use that excess energy to drive electrolysis.
Speaking of misinformation and snake oil, those who are touting the "water injection" in aircraft engines as an example of anything are WAY off base. I used to mix the stuff at Naval Air Station Whidbey Island, for use in the P2V-7 Neptune engines (R3350-32WA). First off, it is NOT "water injection", it is ADI Fluid (Anti-Detonation Injection), and it is not pure water. To make the stuff, we mixed 55 gallons of distilled water, 55 gallons of denatured alcohol, and 2 gallons of water soluble cutting oil in a tank, then pumped it into a small tank in the wheel well of the aircraft, mounted right behind the firewall. This fluid was used at max military power, to prevent detonation in the cylinders (otherwise known as "pinging"). Sometimes it would be used during takeoff as well, for the same reason. It had nothing to do with fuel economy. The tank only held about 20 gallons.
As for "natural laws", they really don't exist. A man made some observations, and wrote "laws" that seemed to coincide with what he observed. So far, they seem to have held true. For a long time, it was accepted scientific fact that the Sun moved around the Earth. But now we know better, right? Or, do we? We THINK we know a LOT of things. But, can we be sure? Things change. There are even scientists who are questioning the Theory of Relativity!
Is anything truly "IMPOSSIBLE"? I wouldn't be willing to bet more than I could afford to lose!
CM1, USN (RET)
'94 Dodge 3500 4X2 CTD, Std. cab, LB, 5 speed, 4.10 LS diff., Jacobs Rambrake, 273,000 Miles
'99 Monaco McKenzie 32' triple slide
'95 Tioga 29H Ford-based Class C
Daily driver: '06 Jeep Liberty CRD
Towed: '06 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
PT Barnum would be REAL happy reading this thread. LOTS of suckers still out there.
Hydrogen takes more energy to make than it produces. That is a fact of physics. It is a means of STORING energy, just like electricity. it is not a SOURCE of energy (other than reserves produced by mother nature). It is NOT a renewable resource in itself. The mean of PRODUCING it must be renewable.
Hydrogen is produces with electricity. In this country, electricity is mostly produced with oil or coal (DUH!).
In order for hydrogen and electric to be a viable STORAGE/TRANSMISSION method (neither is a true "fuel"), they need to be PRODUCED by means other than fossil fuels. They need to be produced by solar, wind, nuclear, or hydro in order to be an "alternative" to oil.
(Clicking heels of ruby slippers together) There's no place like home, there's no place like home, if I believe hard enough, perpetual motion DOES exist, if I believe hard enough, perpetual motion DOES exist. NOT!
Paul (Mouse)
2007 Flagstaff Shamrock 17 Hybrid (heavily modified for boondocking and winter camping).
2007 Dodge Dakota Quad Cab 4x4, 4.7L HO, factory tow, 3.92 gears.
Equil-i-zer Hitch, Prodigy.
Yamaha EF2400 Generator (quiet, cause I care!)
firedawg182 wrote: we have been playing with HHO gas production at work. using stainless steel plates the size of playing cards and 12 volts at 10-20 amps. seem to generate about a liter of gas per minute.When we first tried it we attempted to to light the gas emiting from an end of a 4 foot section of suction hose. It lit alright, it flashed back into the water container and blew the lid off of it. If you apply electricity to a series of plates submerged in water you will produce a hydrogen oxygen combination gas that burns very well. thats the easy part, knowing where to plug it in on your engine and how to regulate production, and safety systems that is the tough part and we are still working on that. we are doing this for our own benefit, not to sell and we have been using internet sources so far. please don't apply snake oil comments to everything you don't understand
My hopes for perpetual energy were dashed when Pons and Fleishman couldn't deliver cold fusion...
Developments in the storage of electricity (i.e. Li-Poly, Li-Ion, etc) are advancing rapidly, seemingly faster than that of fuel cells, so I expect that there WILL eventually be electric RV's...we just may have a little less storage space once the batteries are installed. But if we would get our act together and increase nuclear power generation (look at France!), the sky is the limit.
In the next year or so you will see solar panels on the market that are 1/10th the weight and 1/10th the price of units currently available. They are making them now at a company called Nanosolar. They are now able to make solar panels 100 times faster than conventional glass panels, on thin sheets of plastic using bubble-jet style printing technology with nanoparticle ink.
Unfortunately for us RVers, all production of both their US and German plants are being used to build giant solar farms for commercial electrical generation. According to Nanosolar, they can now build and produce zero polluting PV generating plants at the same cost/kw as a coal burning power plant. Here's a link to their website: Nanosolar
Imagine, in the next couple years, covering the roof of your rig with ultra-lightweight, low cost, thin-film solar panels. Not only would it provide power for your house batteries, but it could be used to recharge and power your hybrid TV's batteries too, extending battery range and improving MPG.
Now, every TT has electric brakes. Imagine in a few years that they may be replaced with electric motors (at least on one axle) to assist your TV with hill climbing and acceleration. These electric motors could also be used for regenerative braking instead of conventional scrub type brakes, putting 80-90% of the power back into the batteries that you just took out when you accelerated onto the freeway. Add the aforementioned solar panels for the remaining 10%-20% of your power needs, along with low internal resistance, high tech batteries and you'll have a complete, self-contained energy system independent of your TV, allowing your current TV's MPG to approach that of when not towing.
This is currently available technology, just waiting for fuel prices to rise to a point to justify its use. If our fuel prices continue to rise to the level Europeans are currently paying, we may be there sooner than we all think.
This thread is about THISCLOSE to going "bye-bye"... If you want to contribute, fine, then do so, but lets keep it on topic and "can" all the sarcastic remarks!!!
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