Take a normal vehicle (mini van or not) and "load up" with passengers and rear cargo. Let's say average of 2 adults (200 lbs each ) and 2 kids (150 lbs each). That's 700 lbs. Let's take their normal camping gear that's transported inside the vehicle as well. Let's say 300 lbs. Are some folks on this forum trying to tell explain their their vehicle is rated to pull 3,500 lbs trailer "WITH" an additional 1,000 lbs inside the vehicle? Can it - possibly. Should you go over 1,000 lbs ???? I wouldn't. Especially with my priceless family members inside the vehicle at the same time.
Let's take a 3,500 lbs 4 x 8 utility trailer. Nicely tucked behind the Tow Vehicle. NO wind drag at all. Let's take a high wall Traval trailer and connect to the same Tow vehicle. Now. Drive this combo dow the hiway doing 60+ mph. Think of doing fast speeds and one holds a large sheet of playwood out the vehicle window. Talk about getting one's arms ripped off. How much "wind drag" is that travel trailer creating behind any tow vehicle? Does it have the same wind drag as compared to pulling a utility trailer (that is tucked behind the tow vehicle) that is 500 "real" lbs heavier? Bet it is. Don't ignore the facts. Wind drag on the hiways makes the travel trailer's weight `feel` 500-800 lbs heavier.
With this in mind, can your FWD vehicle rated to pull 3,500 lbs (for a 4x8 utility trailer tucked behind the vehicle) legally and "mechanical under max stress" pull a 5,000 lbs trailer? 1,000 lbs for internal vehicle cargo and 500 lbs of "feels like wind drag" additional weight? In the "real world", that vehicle is pulling more then its rated pull weight. Especially on windy days and vehicle is loaded down for the long trips.
Also... Salesman don't think "real world". They only think about "white board" worlds and how much profits they can make. As long as they can "make a sale", they's fudge the white board numbers into their favor. Sales folks do this - on purpose.
Something to think about...
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edited 07/21/08 08:44am by spike99 *
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Road Ruler wrote: Our positive experience is well known on this forum.
We used an 1993 Quest (150 HP) to tow with for over 10 years. In a nut shell it was just great even with the 23' TT! It would cruise hour after hour at 60MPH on the highways.
Note.. For the past 3 years we have been towing our 23' with a vehicle with the 260HP, 3.5 Nissan VQ engine, same as your 07 Quest. This is a very reliable and powerful engine for towing.
The small Airstream makes a big difference @60mph compared to a normal TT.
campingrandma wrote: Actually, it is just the opposite, on most mini-vans you DO have to subtract the weight of cargo and passengers from the towing capacity.
No, you are mis-informed.
Many minivans and cars are rated to pull their full towing capacity even with a load in the vehicle. Some allow you to load right up to maximum payload, then hitch up a trailer at maximum tow rating, other just give you a "buffer" of 1000 pounds or so to load in the vehicle without having to subtract anything from the tow rating.
For example, my Subaru is rated at 2400 pounds towing, even with the car loaded right up to maximum GVWR. My Freestar has about a 1200 pound buffer of stuff I can put in the van and still pull 3500 pounds. This is because the GCWR for the Freestar is set about 1200 pounds higher than the weight of an empty van, rather than being the sum of an empty vehicle and it's tow rating the way most trucks and SUVs are.
I agree, all this information is in the owner's manual for my cars as well as the OP's. The only way to know for sure is read up on it. Quoting re-hashed old rules of thumb from that over time become accepted as fact doesn't really help anyone.
-Jimmy
'04 Ford Freestar (Primary tow vehicle) '05 Subaru Forester (Backup tow vehicle) '65 Bethany popup (best popups ever made!) Looking for a tow vehicle Minivan towing
GM minivans do include the cargo capacity in the tow rating. I can tow (with no towing package) 2,900 lbs with the driver and 2,000 with six passengers. That is a difference of 900 lbs (that of course is an estimate of the weight you would be actually carrying). In other words, anything more than the driver in the van reduces the towing capacity.
While your Freestar (a crossover also not a minivan) may not be that way or your Sub (again not a minivan), if you check out other brands, you will find it is not true of MOST MINVANS. Notice I didn't say all. You just can't lump them all together, which I did not. Fact of the matter is, I see many, many folks out there towing stuff with mini-vans they have no business towing with one (the same can be said of trucks and cars too), just because someone gave them the wrong information or said the tow ratings are "ultra conservative."
It is only a person's opinion that the tow ratings are "ultra conservative" unless they personally designed the vehicle. While they might be, it can't be stated as fact. Please don't push folks to tow more than might be safe (either mechanically or weight wise) which means staying within the published tow ratings, based on your personal opinion.
* This post was
edited 07/21/08 09:50am by campingrandma *
spike99 wrote: The only van I would pull a 2,700 lbs dry (which is often 3,500-3,700 lbs loaded) trailer with is an Astro/Safari model.
From someone who has tried both, the Astro is not a better tow vehicle than many modern FWD minivans.
FWD or RWD is personal choice. There are pros and cons either way. Statistically neither is more reliable than the other, even though people choose to believe RWD is a more robust drivetrain. I've been pulling trailers with both FWD and RWD for about 20 years now and FWD has actually out-performed RWD on several occasions.
You can choose to believe whatever you want, but I myself think your mechanic is ignorant to the facts. He isn't doing anything except spouting the same old garbage that everyone already believes is true without any basis of experience to back it up. Until you have tried both, you also have no real basis for your statements.
I would hitch up my Freestar to ANY trailer that you would consider pulling with your Astro. I know for a fact that 3500 pounds (or potentially more) behind a FWD vehicle is not only possible, it's safe and reliable. I've tried both, and while the Astro wasn't bad it just doesn't hold a candle to the newer FWD vans with their more powerful engines, better brakes and suspension, tighter handling, improved mileage and better comfort and safety. Seriously, how much do you have to hate your spouse to expect him/her to spend 1200 miles in the passenger's seat of an Astro?
The OP's Quest is probably just as capable if not moreso given the high output of the VQ engine.
campingrandma wrote: GM minivans do include the cargo capacity in the tow rating. I can tow (with no towing package) 2,900 lbs with the driver and 2,000 with six passengers. That is a differenc of 900 lbs (that of course is an estimate of the weight you would be actually carrying). In other words, anything more than the driver in the van reduces the towing capacity.
While your Freestar may not be that way and your Sub too, if you check out other brands, you will find it is not true of MOST of them. Notice I didn't say all as you did. You just can't lump them all together, which I did not.
Actually, I've researched this to death on several occasions. Your GM van is the exception in this case, not the norm. The GM minivans are NOT the same class of tow vehicle as many of the others, a fact hidden by a shared tow rating with every other minivan ever made.
And I didn't say ALL, I said MOST. I was thinking of the GM minivans when I made the choice to not blanket the entire minivan segment.
Like I said, FWD van's for towing above 3,000 lbs "average loaded" trailers don't cut in within my books. Seen too my FWD vans towing PUPS get stuck at my camp site. Definately would not want to use a FWD tow vehicle for pulling TT's either. Watching folks with FWD van's pull their boat trailer's out of the water is a joke as well. Are yo sure you want to use your Freestar van to pull a boat out of water, a PU in the mud or a "wind wall" TT on wet camp ground grass???
spike99 wrote: Like I said, FWD van's for towing above 3,000 lbs "average loaded" trailers don't cut in within my books. Seen too my FWD vans towing PUPS get stuck at my camp site. Definately would not want to use a FWD tow vehicle for pulling TT's either. Watching folks with FWD van's pull their boat trailer's out of the water is a joke as well. Are yo sure you want to use your Freestar van to pull a boat out of water, a PU in the mud or a "wind wall" TT on wet camp ground grass???
.
Already done most of those things. No problems. Whenever I need a little extra traction, I can always crank up the spring bars a couple links and transfer some more weight forward if needed. Since most of the weight of a FWD van is already on the drive wheels, traction is very good. People who have trouble with FWD on wet grass need new tires.
I'll throw in there as well that most minivans are rated to tow 3500 on top of a loaded van. I tow a 25 foot full height ultra lite trailer with a Toyota Sienna and still come in under the GCWR (although only by a few pounds). I average 12 mpg towing and have no problems maintaining speed. The tranny never has to shift out of 4th and temperatures never move from normal. I also tow and launch a boat with it and do not have any problems either.
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