If the load is within limit design of the surge brake hitch the spring should keep braking action from happening when backing or using engine braking. Sure the surge brakes should catch some of the load when engine braking is causing a drop in MPH speed but once it stablizes (say the speed is 35 MPH and not decreasing) the spring should keep the brake released.
Something is wrong if surge brakes activate within the force of a surge.
So what are the advantages to Surge Brakes over Electric Brakes? Seems to me like electric brakes with a good brake controller (Prodigy) would do the same thing for a lot less cost. What am I missing?
coachk34 wrote: So what are the advantages to Surge Brakes over Electric Brakes? Seems to me like electric brakes with a good brake controller (Prodigy) would do the same thing for a lot less cost. What am I missing?
They are cheaper because they are more simple than electric plus they require no user skills or adjustments and are not limited to use by "one" TV (the one with the controller installed). This is why U-Haul uses surge brakes on trailers.
One down side is they can not be used to stop the TV if the TV brakes fail.
We have the KarKaddy 3 with surge brakes. Over 15K miles and no problems at all. The only time I have even felt them is in a situation where traffic was in a speed up - slow down quickly mode at 35 to 40 mph. I slowed down to maintain a smooth transition and never felt it "buck" again. Simple and well built.
Bob & Dagmar
Teddy (Shih Tzu)
1999 Monaco Diplomat 36
Cummins 5.9 (275) & Allison MD3060
2006 Toyota Prius Towed on Demco KK370SB Dolly
Gale Hawkins wrote: If the load is within limit design of the surge brake hitch the spring should keep braking action from happening when backing or using engine braking. Sure the surge brakes should catch some of the load when engine braking is causing a drop in MPH speed but once it stablizes (say the speed is 35 MPH and not decreasing) the spring should keep the brake released.
Something is wrong if surge brakes activate within the force of a surge.
Your information assumes a trailer that weighs pretty close to the same all the time, and a properly adjusted coupler.
Trailers whose weight changes dramatically, like car hauler, cargo trailers...etc. will not work smoothly under all circumstances. If the trailer is lightly loaded, then the spring must also be light to allow any braking to occur at all. If the trailer is rolling heavy, then that same spring must be firm to prevent the brakes from dragging. It's a catch 22 and there is no way to adjust them to work correctly for every given load. If they put in the stiffer spring assuming the trailer will be loaded heavy most of the time, then the brakes just plain won't work when the trailer is empty.
And since it was brought up, if the tow vehicle can't initiate the stop (low traction, brake failure...etc.) then the surge brakes won't do anything. If the tow vehicle can't provide the deceleration to actuate the coupler, your trailer pushes you right into the thing you are trying to stop for.
And since we are now talking about the issues with using surge brakes, I will also mention that a surge-braked trailer is severely limited as too what types of sway control or weight distribution can be applied. I've seen people in the popup forum upgrade their tow vehicle MUCH BIGGER than would actually be required just because they have a popup with surge brakes and the heavy tongue weight sags the back of their existing tow vehicle. Under normal circumstances this can easily be correct with a $300 WD hitch rather than a $40k F-350.
In addition, surge brakes ARE NOT less expensive to install or maintain. The hydraulic actuator on the tongue is much more expensive than even a top-quality electric brake controller, and hard brakes lines are more difficult and time-consuming to route to the wheels. They are used on rental trailers only because they are universally acceptable no matter what the tow vehicle, not because they are better in any way. Some trailer dealers also install them as a "selling feature" to make customers believe their tow vehicle is ready to pull without any modifications. In other words, they are slightly better than no brakes at all, but not even in the same ballpark as electric brakes with a quality brake controller.
And last, I really like being able to look down at my brake controller and see the status of my trailer brakes. It sure is nice as you are cresting a mountain to look down and see your trailer brakes are functioning and ready. Without this feedback, how would you even know if the surge brakes had failed until it was too late?
'04 Ford Freestar (Primary tow vehicle) '05 Subaru Forester (Backup tow vehicle) '65 Bethany popup (best popups ever made!) Looking for a tow vehicle Minivan towing
Gale Hawkins wrote: If the load is within limit design of the surge brake hitch the spring should keep braking action from happening when backing or using engine braking. Sure the surge brakes should catch some of the load when engine braking is causing a drop in MPH speed but once it stablizes (say the speed is 35 MPH and not decreasing) the spring should keep the brake released.
Something is wrong if surge brakes activate within the force of a surge.
Your information assumes a trailer that weighs pretty close to the same all the time, and a properly adjusted coupler.
Trailers whose weight changes dramatically, like car hauler, cargo trailers...etc. will not work smoothly under all circumstances. If the trailer is lightly loaded, then the spring must also be light to allow any braking to occur at all. If the trailer is rolling heavy, then that same spring must be firm to prevent the brakes from dragging. It's a catch 22 and there is no way to adjust them to work correctly for every given load. If they put in the stiffer spring assuming the trailer will be loaded heavy most of the time, then the brakes just plain won't work when the trailer is empty.
And since it was brought up, if the tow vehicle can't initiate the stop (low traction, brake failure...etc.) then the surge brakes won't do anything. If the tow vehicle can't provide the deceleration to actuate the coupler, your trailer pushes you right into the thing you are trying to stop for.
And since we are now talking about the issues with using surge brakes, I will also mention that a surge-braked trailer is severely limited as too what types of sway control or weight distribution can be applied. I've seen people in the popup forum upgrade their tow vehicle MUCH BIGGER than would actually be required just because they have a popup with surge brakes and the heavy tongue weight sags the back of their existing tow vehicle. Under normal circumstances this can easily be correct with a $300 WD hitch rather than a $40k F-350.
In addition, surge brakes ARE NOT less expensive to install or maintain. The hydraulic actuator on the tongue is much more expensive than even a top-quality electric brake controller, and hard brakes lines are more difficult and time-consuming to route to the wheels. They are used on rental trailers only because they are universally acceptable no matter what the tow vehicle, not because they are better in any way. Some trailer dealers also install them as a "selling feature" to make customers believe their tow vehicle is ready to pull without any modifications. In other words, they are slightly better than no brakes at all, but not even in the same ballpark as electric brakes with a quality brake controller.
And last, I really like being able to look down at my brake controller and see the status of my trailer brakes. It sure is nice as you are cresting a mountain to look down and see your trailer brakes are functioning and ready. Without this feedback, how would you even know if the surge brakes had failed until it was too late?
I was under the impression we were not talking about RV trailer brakes. I am not sure you have had experience using surge brakes based on your post or if so you had some that had were not set up correctly. Surge brakes are load sensitive in my experience. I do agree a controller has its place but surge brakes are so dependable and trouble free which makes them a great choice for many and they are so easy to check when you start down a mountain. I think the lower hassle/cost and less likely to fail is the reason they are preferred by many.
Gale Hawkins wrote: I was under the impression we were not talking about RV trailer brakes. I am not sure you have had experience using surge brakes based on your post or if so you had some that had were not set up correctly. Surge brakes are load sensitive in my experience. I do agree a controller has its place but surge brakes are so dependable and trouble free which makes them a great choice for many and they are so easy to check when you start down a mountain. I think the lower hassle/cost and less likely to fail is the reason they are preferred by many.
The "lower hassle approach" if that is what we are calling it is almost never the correct solution for any given problem. Surge brakes are less hassle only because they trade some functionality for universalness.
I have more experience with trailers and towing than most RV dealers. I have towed MANY trailers with and without brakes, and with both surge and electric.
Surge brakes are only load-senstive based on the braking force they provide. In other words, a heavy trailer will place MORE force on the tow vehicle and therefore activate the surge coupler harder than a light trailer will.
The hold-back spring you mentioned is NOT dynamically adjustable, and is set at the factory for a specific weight range, which is why surge couplers come in different weight classes. If you put a 10,000 pound surge coupler on a 2000 pound trailer, the hold-back spring will prevent the trailer brakes from ever activating. If you put a 2000 pound coupler on a 10,000 pound trailer the brakes will be engaged every time you take your foot off the gas. These are two extremes to make a point. More often what happens is that a 5000 pound coupler is placed on a trailer with a dry weight of 2000 pounds, and a loaded weight of 4000 give or take. When the trailer is dry, the brakes will almost never activate because there isn't enough mass to compress the holdback spring. When the trailer is maxed out, the brakes will work very well for stopping, but backing up or driving downhill will compress the holdback spring just enough to drag the brakes.
I have retrofitted electric brakes onto trailers that originally had surge brakes several times in the past, some were my own and others belonged to friends. Each and every one of them was extremely pleased with the upgrade including myself. It is MUCH easier to run wire for electric brakes than bend/bleed/flare hydraulic line for surge brakes. And the $200 surge coupler is much more expensive than even a top-of-the-line electric brake controller.
Caddywhompus I see your points are based on a lot of experience. Your name is a term I have not heard used in a long time and I never knew how to spell it even though it was a common term at one point.
Personally I prefer electric brakes to the surge type. We have 1 equipment trailer and a tow dolly with electric brakes and a second equipment trailer with surge brakes. It's nice to be able to set the braking power to coincide with the load you're carrying. There is no maintenance on the electric brakes, they can be activated manually, and are constantly monitored by the controller (we use a Tekonsha Prodigy). The brakes only engage when the inertia sensor feels the tow vehicle slowing down AND there is a signal that the brakes are being applied
The downside of the electric brakes is you have to either transfer to, or install a controller in each tow vehicle. Most motorhomes since the late 1990's have a built in harness for a controller. In our case it took more time to decide where to mount it than it did to install it. Total installation time was less than 1/2 an hour.
The downside to surge brakes is they can be engaged by the jerking (surge) of traveling over rough terrain or activation of a jake or exhaust brake on steep grades. Then there's the maintenance associated with all hydraulic brakes like occasional flushing of the system and inspection for leaks and rusted out lines.
To me the electrics are less hassle and more dependable for this application. Now if you were pulling a boat trailer that constantly was getting wet launching ot retiieving a boat the hydraulics would be a better choice.
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