In addition to the above perspectives, there may not be 12v available in the near future except as a retro option. The 12v automotive voltage, that we are so familiar with, used to be only 6v which was handy for lead-acid batteries thereby only requiring 3 cells. Because the 6v was more amperage intensive, and specifically to supply 12v for improved ignition at starting (reduced to an ideal 9v run), the automobile went to 12v and 6 cells. All the wiring, including starter windings and generator windings could now be reduced in size, by half, compared to all 6v.
Most future trucks and autos are likely to have a much higher main voltage system because more durable pure electric transmissions and a high voltage multicell hybrid recovery battery are right around the corner. Auto makers will not be able to meet CAFE standards any other way. Wiring will drop in size yet again, making them lighter. As an example, the total 12v wiring harness for my old 1990 5.0 Mustang weighed about 75 pounds minus computer.
My wife has a hybrid type car and it does have a 12v battery besides the 200+v NMH battery but it doesn't even use it for starting. The heater motor is probably 12v, but the instant heat elements are high voltage (it switches to warm water heat after an exceptionally brief warm-up). So is the air conditioning HV(runs with the engine off), which is a leak-proof canister compresser not unlike any RV AC. The 12v system already seems just a required after-thought to match some common 12v vendor accessories and bulbs.
Wes Tausend writes "Most future trucks and autos are likely to have a much higher main voltage system because more durable pure electric transmissions"
Rather doubtful that these "future" vehicles will have a "more durable pure electric transmission", if anthing because of the computers, programming, sensors, extrea wiring these "future" vehicles will ultimately will be less durable, cost much more, do less, will be harder to repair, harder to scrap/recycle.
"and a high voltage multicell hybrid recovery battery are right around the corner."
Sorry, as far as improvements to batteries, not much has happened, this is an unrealistic pipe dream that many since late 1890 have tried but never has worked out. Do a search on electric vehicles, 1,000+ ELECTRIC AUTO companies have come and gone since the automobile was invented.
"Auto makers will not be able to meet CAFE standards any other way. Wiring will drop in size yet again, making them lighter. As an example, the total 12v wiring harness for my old 1990 5.0 Mustang weighed about 75 pounds minus computer."
Newer batteries are very finicky, require very careful management (charge/discharge) adds 1,000-2,000lbs to the vehicle. These high voltage/current systems present many dangers to folks that just can't be addressed. Several manufacturers are using LiIon batteries, have you seen what happens if a LiIon battery gets smashed in a accident?
Instant 3,000-5,000 degree fire is the result, Lithium reacts to the oxygen in the air and will instantly ignite!
Sorry, I am not buying this story, the auto companies have made great improvements in gas mileage. Think about it, if you were still driving a vehicle that was built in the 1950s you would be getting less than half the mileage current vehicles get. 1950s average car weighed 5,000lbs, and got 10-12mpg highway. Now days you can buy a fully gas powered car (1,900-2,500lbs) with 4 small cylinders pumping out the same HP but getting 35-40mpg.
The problem has been the auto companies have sold more lower gas mileage vehicles due to PUBLIC demand. You know, the way oversized SUVs with DVD, suround sound, and every other gadget known to man.
The best way to get mileage is to STRIP it of all non needed items, yep, ditch those heated seats, the heated mirrors, the DVD and so on.
I buy the "plain Jane" model of truck, no leather, no heated seats, no split heating/cooling, NO 4x4. You do realize 98% of the 4x4 trucks NEVER EVER get used in 4x4 mode. My 2wd basic truck gets 2-3mpg better than a 4x4.
"My wife has a hybrid type car and it does have a 12v battery besides the 200+v NMH battery but it doesn't even use it for starting. The heater motor is probably 12v, but the instant heat elements are high voltage (it switches to warm water heat after an exceptionally brief warm-up). So is the air conditioning HV(runs with the engine off), which is a leak-proof canister compresser not unlike any RV AC. The 12v system already seems just a required after-thought to match some common 12v vendor accessories and bulbs"
Wait until you face replacing those high voltage heating elements or even those 1,000lb high voltage batteries. Imagine the disposal fee you will pay! You realize that you paid several thousand extra for that vehicle and it gets maybe at the most 5mpg better than a traditional built vehicle??? Hybrids just use smoke and mirrors to make them look more enviromently friendly but you are shifting the real world cost elsewhere from gas.
A leakproof canister compressor? Well I got some ocean front land in Arizona I would like to sell to you. Nothing man makes will ever be leak proof, trust me, when it does leak, you will be thinking about trading in your vehicle. Sounds like you have the marketing brochures memorized.
Besides the OP wasn't asking about future RVs or vehicles so worring about a future high voltage RV shouldn't be on the top of a priority list.
Gdetrailer wrote: Wes Tausend writes "Most future trucks and autos are likely to have a much higher main voltage system because more durable pure electric transmissions"
Rather doubtful that these "future" vehicles will have a "more durable pure electric transmission", if anthing because of the computers, programming, sensors, extrea wiring these "future" vehicles will ultimately will be less durable, cost much more, do less, will be harder to repair, harder to scrap/recycle.
"and a high voltage multicell hybrid recovery battery are right around the corner."
Sorry, as far as improvements to batteries, not much has happened, this is an unrealistic pipe dream that many since late 1890 have tried but never has worked out. Do a search on electric vehicles, 1,000+ ELECTRIC AUTO companies have come and gone since the automobile was invented.
"Auto makers will not be able to meet CAFE standards any other way. Wiring will drop in size yet again, making them lighter. As an example, the total 12v wiring harness for my old 1990 5.0 Mustang weighed about 75 pounds minus computer."
Newer batteries are very finicky, require very careful management (charge/discharge) adds 1,000-2,000lbs to the vehicle. These high voltage/current systems present many dangers to folks that just can't be addressed. Several manufacturers are using LiIon batteries, have you seen what happens if a LiIon battery gets smashed in a accident?
Instant 3,000-5,000 degree fire is the result, Lithium reacts to the oxygen in the air and will instantly ignite!
Sorry, I am not buying this story, the auto companies have made great improvements in gas mileage. Think about it, if you were still driving a vehicle that was built in the 1950s you would be getting less than half the mileage current vehicles get. 1950s average car weighed 5,000lbs, and got 10-12mpg highway. Now days you can buy a fully gas powered car (1,900-2,500lbs) with 4 small cylinders pumping out the same HP but getting 35-40mpg.
The problem has been the auto companies have sold more lower gas mileage vehicles due to PUBLIC demand. You know, the way oversized SUVs with DVD, suround sound, and every other gadget known to man.
The best way to get mileage is to STRIP it of all non needed items, yep, ditch those heated seats, the heated mirrors, the DVD and so on.
I buy the "plain Jane" model of truck, no leather, no heated seats, no split heating/cooling, NO 4x4. You do realize 98% of the 4x4 trucks NEVER EVER get used in 4x4 mode. My 2wd basic truck gets 2-3mpg better than a 4x4.
"My wife has a hybrid type car and it does have a 12v battery besides the 200+v NMH battery but it doesn't even use it for starting. The heater motor is probably 12v, but the instant heat elements are high voltage (it switches to warm water heat after an exceptionally brief warm-up). So is the air conditioning HV(runs with the engine off), which is a leak-proof canister compresser not unlike any RV AC. The 12v system already seems just a required after-thought to match some common 12v vendor accessories and bulbs"
Wait until you face replacing those high voltage heating elements or even those 1,000lb high voltage batteries. Imagine the disposal fee you will pay! You realize that you paid several thousand extra for that vehicle and it gets maybe at the most 5mpg better than a traditional built vehicle??? Hybrids just use smoke and mirrors to make them look more enviromently friendly but you are shifting the real world cost elsewhere from gas.
A leakproof canister compressor? Well I got some ocean front land in Arizona I would like to sell to you. Nothing man makes will ever be leak proof, trust me, when it does leak, you will be thinking about trading in your vehicle. Sounds like you have the marketing brochures memorized.
Besides the OP wasn't asking about future RVs or vehicles so worring about a future high voltage RV shouldn't be on the top of a priority list.
Sorry, if I touched a nerve here. We're going to have to get past this, not necessarily on this forum. I hope I don't upset anyone by taking this a little further. Change isn't easy. Take a lot of what you've heard with a grain of salt and just apply your own common sense. But in the end, I agree, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
There are a multitude of misconceptions surrounding the new technologies, fostered by special interests. Some of it has taken on a political atmosphere which is too bad for the average citizen. The struggle is between the fickle consumer who will quickly adapt a better mousetrap and a huge petroleum/automobile industry trying to maintain the lucrative status quo. As an example, nearly some whole streets in business districts are devoted to just auto related business, so think of the size, clout and propoganda advertising dollars, of the industry twins that feel threatened.
Why would they feel threatened by hybrid and/or electric?
First, the petroleum industry. Any sudden large decrease in petroleum use is devastating. The huge success of the first '80's electric cars in California scared the bejesus out of them. The people that had them (leased) loved them, particularily the lead-acid EV1 by GM. What if everybody within 40 miles (to 60 miles, NMH) of work used them exclusively? A simple, pennies cheap, overnight charge and voila, no gas pumps. With minor improvement the new "fuel" distribution already exists, off peak. Electric was pooh-poohed bigtime. Next thing you know we had a news release of a prominent person shown filling a hydrogen car. From a very standard looking gas pump. The prefered same ol' petroleum distribution system, ahem. Ok, I'm overly suspicious.
Second, the auto industry. Think just about what a large automobile manufacturer actually provides for us. I submit that they basically provide (engineer) powertrain and that's it ...the engine and transmission (if it's automatic, that is). The rest of the car is basically a low tech metal body combined with several generic vendor supplied items. The parts of any modern car, other than the powertrain are simple and generic. As an example, I have such a simple, small-time car. It came as a complete body, frame and interior kit for building a sportscar replica. But it requires adding a 5.0 Mustang powertrain, something beyond a small manufacturer, like Factoryfive. What if I could buy a suitable powertrain at my local electric motor supplier and Batteries Plus? Why would I need the "Big 3"? (V8 sound is definately better.) Food for thought, anyway.
The scariest thing is that electrical power plants and associated powertrain are so simple that small time Mom and Pop can engineer them. And they are very reliable with very few moving parts. When's the last time anyone here had to replace a quality brushless synchronous motor that hadn't already run for years. They only have two main bearings and NO crankcase oil. If I were a major auto manufacturer or petroleum corporation, I would be nervous too. Until they helped leverage the state of California to drop its zero-pollution option requirement and quickly crushed all the cars. Out of sight - out of mind. Except Japan didn't get the message. Now we have hybrids to the deep chagrin of Detroit.
The reason I think there will be more more durable pure electric transmissions is that we have been using them for years in our locomotives. Our largest units put out 4400 horsepower, reliably year after year, mile after mile with very little maintainence. All this is due to new developments in inverter technology. No motor brushes are needed in AC (alternating current) motors. Since the mid '90's. I helped beta the first AC locomotive units by Siemens of Germany from here (ND) to Montana. Our beloved Honda inverters are the little guys. Same tech though.
One of the problems with modern automotive hydraulic transmissions is that they have accumulated quite a few electrical/hydraulic controls, all to do with computer control, that make repair and rebuild prohibitively expensive and very complicated. Ask your transmission guy. So why bother with hydraulics ...unless that is your only heralding engineering forte. Change is hard.
Gasoline won the efficiency war over the past years because it was plentiful and cheap and lead-acid batteries weren't that great. Anyone who has used the new lithium power tools should know the future. Lithium is everywhere and mysteriously safe. I fully agree with you that, "the auto companies have made great improvements in gas mileage." Most of our next generation vehicles will be a combination of internal combustion and an efficient momentum recovery device, most likely battery.
All batteries are recyclable now, disposal is a minor concern. The batteries are not heavy, particularily the lithium. My wifes car (Toyota) does significantly better than non-hybrids but many first generation hybrids don't. GM made some early versions that did little more than qualify for the commuter lane loophole. The real savings is in town where most of our driving is. The car does an honest-to-God 44 mpg, town or highway (except in the winter, 36). GMs latest Tahoe hybrid does as well in town as a midsize sedan. So does their Silverado hybrid half-ton. Economically use it for work, pull the camper on week-ends. Somewhere there was a "study" that purported to say that building a Humvee was more eco-friendly than a hybrid but it has been debunked. Corporate high dollar propoganda at its best, no doubt.
The leakproof AC canister is a fact. Sort-of. At least as leakproof as your refrigerator or roof AC, anyway. Standard auto AC compressors tend to leak around their driveshaft seals and this design eliminates that. Also, the Toyota Prius tranny doesn't leak because it has no fluid. Same for the power steering (it's electric).
The DWs car is relatively cheap at $22.5k base and has more backseat footroom than a Buick. In 2007, Consumer Reports said it was the most reliable car in the world, bar none. Hybrid technology should be, and is, cheap in this instance, but I'm sure we will be generally sold a hardship package. Well, we already are being sold this in congress, what do you know, ha, ha.
Quote: Besides the OP wasn't asking about future RVs or vehicles so worring about a future high voltage RV shouldn't be on the top of a priority list.
True.
Gdetrailer, your comments were very welcome and we are all searching for the truth. As for all the above that I wrote, everyone please take it for what it is ...an opinion. We're all companions here, yes?
But to get back on topic, AllegroSam, I haven't looked for an LCD TV, but I suspect that 12v appliances including TVs are rare, even though most solid-state electronics are at heart low voltage devices. I believe what we are dealing with here are designers who do not have RV owners in mind from the get go. I'd like to suggest that folks write to the manufacturers and suggest that they are ignoring a market. There are some advantages in putting your power supply in a wall-wart, rather than inside the cabinet, why not just make the power out 12v dc, and open up a whole new market for effectively zero cost?
Additional info: I just went to Google and typed in "12v appliances", and it found lots of web sites with 12v devices listed including TVs. Shop to your heart's content! Help the economy.
Arnie & Mary
2004 4WD Dodge Durango w/5.7L Hemi/3.55/Tow Package
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They do make a lot of 12 volt stuff but like coffee pots are slow and take a lot of amps out of your battier.I have a 12 volt flat screen with DVD player that will work 110 or 12.It is pretty neat.
winkyb wrote: They do make a lot of 12 volt stuff but like coffee pots are slow and take a lot of amps out of your battier.I have a 12 volt flat screen with DVD player that will work 110 or 12.It is pretty neat.
Battier is an American professional basketball player with the Houston Rockets
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