Phillerup wrote: I like them a lot but who knows about survivors....A lot of the same things could be said about Blue Bird or Travel Supreme that have been said here about Foretravel. Right now, it has a lot to do with liabilities, financing and debt structure more than the quality of the product.
The only company that I would really bet on right now -- I mean really bet my money on is Tiffin. I am not saying buy a Tiffin -- I am just saying I believe the odds of them making it would be good enough that I would bet on it. I also think Newmar will make it - but I would BET money on Tiffin.
You are correct about liabilities and financing. But FT went through that issue in 2005 and the new owners came in and got rid of the debts have sized the business for a higher priced custom units. They can survive on 2 units a month. I know if you want one now you may get an 09 model but last year in the middle of the year it was a 6 month wait. I have a friend who ordered one last summer and is taking delivery this month. That may not be a good thing in a hot market but in this slow one that is what will keep you alive. Order backlog and repeat buyers.
John
2001 42' Foretravel U320
2007 Bornfree 24 Painted
2001 Jeep Wrangler
2007 Burgman 650 Executive
Susie and Dolly (Cavalier King Charles Spaniels)
Dolly now in our hearts and thoughts 8-27-05
Doodle a Black and Tan Cavalier
Lolly a Ruby Cavalier
I agree with everything you said. However if the market get so soft and they are not able to sell 2 a month they can go through cash like all the others and become stressed. There are other dynamics in effect that they don't control such as excess inventory from others that sell at the same price point. FT may make a better coach than XXX company but if the market looks at a heavily discounted coach from XXX company and sees value it will put downward price pressure on FT products. They either lower prices or hold inventory....neither a fun place to be in these days.
Sounds like they are postitoned as well as they can be, but in this market all bets are off. I doubt anyone is sleeping easy these days.
John S. wrote:
Phillerup wrote: I like them a lot but who knows about survivors....A lot of the same things could be said about Blue Bird or Travel Supreme that have been said here about Foretravel. Right now, it has a lot to do with liabilities, financing and debt structure more than the quality of the product.
The only company that I would really bet on right now -- I mean really bet my money on is Tiffin. I am not saying buy a Tiffin -- I am just saying I believe the odds of them making it would be good enough that I would bet on it. I also think Newmar will make it - but I would BET money on Tiffin.
You are correct about liabilities and financing. But FT went through that issue in 2005 and the new owners came in and got rid of the debts have sized the business for a higher priced custom units. They can survive on 2 units a month. I know if you want one now you may get an 09 model but last year in the middle of the year it was a 6 month wait. I have a friend who ordered one last summer and is taking delivery this month. That may not be a good thing in a hot market but in this slow one that is what will keep you alive. Order backlog and repeat buyers.
Never argue with an idiot, they take you down to their level and beat you with more experience....
I agree with everything you said. However if the market get so soft and they are not able to sell 2 a month they can go through cash like all the others and become stressed. There are other dynamics in effect that they don't control such as excess inventory from others that sell at the same price point. FT may make a better coach than XXX company but if the market looks at a heavily discounted coach from XXX company and sees value it will put downward price pressure on FT products. They either lower prices or hold inventory....neither a fun place to be in these days.
Sounds like they are postitoned as well as they can be, but in this market all bets are off. I doubt anyone is sleeping easy these days.
John S. wrote:
Phillerup wrote: I like them a lot but who knows about survivors....A lot of the same things could be said about Blue Bird or Travel Supreme that have been said here about Foretravel. Right now, it has a lot to do with liabilities, financing and debt structure more than the quality of the product.
The only company that I would really bet on right now -- I mean really bet my money on is Tiffin. I am not saying buy a Tiffin -- I am just saying I believe the odds of them making it would be good enough that I would bet on it. I also think Newmar will make it - but I would BET money on Tiffin.
You are correct about liabilities and financing. But FT went through that issue in 2005 and the new owners came in and got rid of the debts have sized the business for a higher priced custom units. They can survive on 2 units a month. I know if you want one now you may get an 09 model but last year in the middle of the year it was a 6 month wait. I have a friend who ordered one last summer and is taking delivery this month. That may not be a good thing in a hot market but in this slow one that is what will keep you alive. Order backlog and repeat buyers.
yes you are correct as that is what a free market does. But I will give them a better chance of surviving than CC or Monaco. They are right sized and do not have a huge dealer network or even high warranty expenses. They also have come out with a 45 footer last year so every owner who wanted a 45 footer has been putting in orders. It is amazing how many of them they are selling. They also have entered the horse trailer market. There is a company called outlaw conversions that converts busses and made trailers. Now you can get a Foretravel horse trailer. Sounds funny but there is a large market for them in the two big areas they sell in: texas and VA TN area. That keeps the guys busy as well as the remodel business. Trust me when I say remodeling these units is a profit center and they keep the factory busy too. I think they have 14 coaches in right now for remodels so that would equal out to one more production unit a month. I had mine remodeled. I purchased an 01 42 footer. I had new carpet new sofas table shower corian hardwood floor put in new passenger and driver seat. Headboard built and electirc front shade and bedroom shades and other upgrades. It is a new coach on the inside with all the bells and whistles that the 08s came with. Interesting that youcan do it to the units. That is a profit center. I know people are spending up to 100,000 dollars on these upgrades.
I do not know of any other manufacturer that is doing that other than the conversion guys.
It is a profit center and they have 20 years worth of coaches that they can work on. BUt your premise is correct and the markets can change and cause them grief.
Went through the plant a couple of weeks ago. Four people on the tour, almost out-numbered the factory workers. Very slow there, would take 6 months to get a fully custom coach through that line.
Guess it depends on commitment. Sounds like the owners have (or had?) deep enough pockets to support it, just a matter of deciding if it is going to come back or when to cut and run. Seem to be doing some right things now but there has to be a lot of bleeding.
They surely have a better shot than a high overhead outfit like Monaco.
Only 2 Newmar MH dealers left in Texas, Dallas and Lubbock.
The ride quality on the IFS was not earning many points from the sales team we spoke with.
In this market one should not be surprised by any closures. Marathon, another very high end mfr., is also having trouble. Verey few if any RV mfrs. are using their own cash and are at the mercy of the banks or other financier. I am wodering how Foretravel's new owners managed to pay off the real estate in just a few years?? I dont think so!
John S. wrote: They can survive on 2 units a month.
I mean no offense - but I doubt they could pay the taxes, machinery repairs, electrical, security, insurance, warranty and a bare skeleton staff for that. I expect their fixed cost would amount to over the profit at the factory level on two units. Their retrofit/repair department may also help out - but keeping the assembly line open on two units a month sounds like something their sales department would say. We were by there a couple of years ago and it is a very large piece of real estate with a large roof and a lot of fixed costs. I would add that with the business like it is right now and with so much price competition that the margins are not there either.
2003 Newmar DSDP 4005 dual slide king bed Spartan 350 Cummins 2004 Jeep Liberty 4X4 tow, SeaEagle boat in basement
John S. wrote: They can survive on 2 units a month.
I mean no offense - but I doubt they could pay the taxes, machinery repairs, electrical, security, insurance, warranty and a bare skeleton staff for that. I expect their fixed cost would amount to over the profit at the factory level on two units. Their retrofit/repair department may also help out - but keeping the assembly line open on two units a month sounds like something their sales department would say. We were by there a couple of years ago and it is a very large piece of real estate with a large roof and a lot of fixed costs. I would add that with the business like it is right now and with so much price competition that the margins are not there either.
I am not sure speculating on their overhead will do more than foster rumors.
I can tell you that Foretravel's physical plant was in place when I first started visiting there in the early 1980's (and could have been there a long time even then), so I would doubt that their fixed expenses are too high.
And having come from the automobile business, I can tell you for a FACT that many dealerships make enough in used car (Foretravel does sell used coaches) parts, service and body shop to support the new car department which LOOSES money.
wolfe10 wrote: Fortravel has a higher likelihood of surviving than most RV manufacturers.
Their buildings were build/paid for decades ago, they scaled back production and did not overbuild.
They also have a thriving motorhome service business and Foretravel remodel business.
You won't hear much negative about their product-- they are at the high-end of production coaches. They pioneered unibody construction (similar to Prevost) about 20 years ago.
And since they are built in a small town (Nacogdoches, Texas) where the service techs grew up with the engineers, they are significantly easier to service (service access) than most coaches because there is excellent feedback from servicing personnel to design personnel.
Our 1993 with 140,000 miles is still better structurally (and cosmetically) than many new coaches today. We have friends who just traded their 1994 U280 (for another Foretravel) with over 375,000 virtually trouble-free miles on it.
I personally think Foretravel will survive because of the strong background / track record / current ownership.
The buildings may have been paid for a long time ago, but when new management took over a few years ago, they had to pay for it.
The price of their coaches have kept going up, but as always, you can deal a lot more with them.
**QUALIFIER**
No, we don't have one (our RV is a Carri-Lite) but mom and dad have had Foretravel for better than 20 years - maybe more - and I get the low-down from dadd every now and again.
Overall, Foretravel is the motorcoach that I would go with if we weren't so stuck on our fifth wheel at this point in time.
Several years ago I asked a friend who had owned several RVs which motorhome I should buy. I wanted to avoid the problems with ride and quality design and construction many have had. He said to find a Foretravel in my price range. I did and have been happy ever since. I hope Foretravel survives the bad financial times; but if they don't, I will still have my Foretravel.
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