Yes, I agree John... TT technology is lagging way behind... We should have greasable suspension standard, disk brakes standard, shocks standard, and some type of axle adjustment as per yours...
Of course by the time the manufacturers do that, it will probably up the price of the TT by 10 grand or so ... But we keep buying this junk don't we Guess we have no one to blame but ourselves...
Ya know what I wonder - - - what is the actual parts cost of the TT complete - no labor, just parts because the way they knock these things together, labor isn't much!!!
I'm guessing in the $7000-$8000 range, maybe 9K for a decent one - couldn't be much more especially in the quantities they buy in and the cheap parts they use...
Les
2000 Ford F-250SD, XLT, 4X4 Off Road, SuperCab
w/ 6.8L (415 C.I.) V-10/3:73LS/4R100
Banks Power Pack w/Trans Command & OttoMind
Sold Trailer - not RV'ing at this point in time
LAdams wrote: Yes, I agree John... TT technology is lagging way behind... We should have greasable suspension standard, disk brakes standard, shocks standard, and some type of axle adjustment as per yours...
Of course by the time the manufacturers do that, it will probably up the price of the TT by 10 grand or so ... But we keep buying this junk don't we Guess we have no one to blame but ourselves...
Ya know what I wonder - - - what is the actual parts cost of the TT complete - no labor, just parts because the way they knock these things together, labor isn't much!!!
I'm guessing in the $7000-$8000 range, maybe 9K for a decent one - couldn't be much more especially in the quantities they buy in and the cheap parts they use...
Les
Les
I am betting the MSRP to be about 300% above actual mfg cost, including labor… so unassembled parts cost could be less than you are thinking…
Of coarse deduct from that all the mfg fixed cost, utilities, insurance, set asides (warranty), advertising, still leaves plenty for end user discounting, transporting, dealer mark-ups…
I would guess a $27,000 trailer at unassembled parts cost to be near the $7,000 or less range, and $9,000+ assembled…
Now for you to purchase all the assembled parts individually at retail and build the same trailer would cost you over $40,000... Or if they sold the same trailer in kit form for your assembly around $16,000...
Of coarse these are only my guesses…
Love my mass produced, entry level, built by Lazy American Workers, Hornet
LAdams wrote: Yes, I agree John... TT technology is lagging way behind... We should have greasable suspension standard, disk brakes standard, shocks standard, and some type of axle adjustment as per yours...
Of course by the time the manufacturers do that, it will probably up the price of the TT by 10 grand or so ... But we keep buying this junk don't we Guess we have no one to blame but ourselves...
Ya know what I wonder - - - what is the actual parts cost of the TT complete - no labor, just parts because the way they knock these things together, labor isn't much!!!
I'm guessing in the $7000-$8000 range, maybe 9K for a decent one - couldn't be much more especially in the quantities they buy in and the cheap parts they use...
Les
Les, the 2 things that really baffle me are the greaseable bushings and at least self adjust drum brakes.
On the bushing, the labor to press in bronze bushing is no more then to press in the nylon bushing when building new. The labor to install a greaseable pin is no more then the standard pin. The labor bolt on 1/2" thick shackles is no more then to bolt on 1/4" ones.
And the brakes....my goodness the few little parts to make the breaks self adjusting is about nothing. Maybe $20 in parts for 4 wheels if that.
Those 2 areas are so basic. And at OEM cost is what? $30 a camper?
OK so sell it as a $100 upgrade option when you buy the trailer. I have not yet seen it even offered..... have you?
And yes, we keep buying them. And then some of us upgrade after…… I want the TT too bad so I'll just deal with it. Maybe if enough of us need to write to RIVA and make some request if they can help push it.
Cost of an entire TT, not to long ago here on RV net a guy built his entire TT and another guy, Chad something built a 5th wheel. That $8K to $9K in parts was about what they bought the materials for on a qty of 1.
John
John & Cindy
2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10
CC, SB, Lariat & FX4 package
21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR
Ford Tow Command
1,700# Reese HP hitch & HP Dual Cam
2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver
2004 Sunline Solaris T310SR
(I wish we were camping!)
I agree, and the market is wide open for the first manufacturer that incorporates these upgrades at a decent cost. That includes axle adjustments! How about rear bumpers designed for more than looks with intergral receivers for bike or blue tank racks. Good battery hold down systems. Quiet water systems. Real mattresses. There are lots of things that could be done, even as upgrades. We should get a list together and lobby the manufacturers. Looking at economy of scale, I really have to wonder how much obscene markup there is on trailers. It`s obvious most are just slopping them together without much eye toward inovation or craftmanship. Maybe during the slowdown is the time to demand quality. When money`s tight, people look for the best value.
"It`s not important that you know all the answers, it`s only important to know where to get all the answers" Arone Kleamyck
"...An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
Sunset Creek 298 BH
WOW! That is definently the high tech way of fixing it. I often wondered when some posted about getting their TT axles aligned....Just what was the shop doing for them. There is no alignment adjustments to be made! Well now there is one trailer out there that can be aligned.
I'm not sure I would've went to that much effort though. I probably would've just cut the spring hangers off and welded new ones on in the proper spot. Not nearly as precise as the adjusters, but with the amount of slop in the leaf spring hangers and shackles it seems to work fine if the hangers are close to spec.
But still a very interesting way of addressing the problem.
Huntindog
2010 Palomino Sabre 30BHDS TWO bathrooms...No waiting!
MICHELIN XPS RIBS LRE
2011 Silverado Big Dually 3500 4x4 CC D/A
EQUALIZER Hitch 100% BOONDOCKING
Check out Rusty and her pups at www.bluecollarbrittanys.com
John great post! very informative! and very nice workmanship.
Years ago there was a manufacturer who made center bolts with eccentric head and the bottom of the threaded shaft had a hex end, so you could dial in alignment spects to get thrust angles on sold rear drive axles. On severe conditions you would have to drill out the center hole to a much large size to accomodate a larger eccentric. I'm sure that these would also work on trailer axles as well, I just haven't seen these in center bolts since the 70's. Maybe someone in the suspension business may have know of them?
Jay
Good Luck and Happy Trails
2007 Dodge 3500 4X4 MC,SRW,CTD
Nascar24 A lengend in my own mind, A Scary thought in someone else's!
I am not axle savy person but some have had good results with axle alignments at truck shops. Just for my information what exactly are these shops doing when they "align" a trailer's axles. Are they simply re-bending the tube? If so how do they correct issues when one side has tire wear but the other doesn't??
2013 Jayco Eagle 334RBTS Disclaimer for the daft: Don't confuse my opinion with facts.
They do just bend the tube… where and at what angle they do the bend is what brings things back in line….
If just one wheel is out the put the bend near that wheel while watching not to put the other side out…
It works if done right and takes about 1 to 1 ½ hours…
Thanks for the nice comments. Greatly appreciated.
On alignment shops, I have researched this, but never been to one. They do as JJBIRISH has stated as he has been thru this. They actually bend the axle tubes to tweak toe. Toe meaning which way the wheel tips in or out in relation to the towing direction or centerline of the TT. A hydraulic power pack is used with the right set of attachments so you do not kink the tube and create high stress areas. Beeline is one such company who makes this type of equipment for heavy trucks. Bee line
Here, in case you want to fix the camber in your dump truck front end axle…
At the axle factory, the axle stubs are welded into the main axle tubes and they pre set toe there.
Here is the axle tube
And here is the machined stub in the end of it where it is welded into the axle tube
When that welding process at the factory is done. It “should” be right and in tolerance. However, with my luck I happen to have 2 axles which where not made right and I had a major toe out problem.
For the alignment shop, if toe at a wheel is out of spec, well they can bend the axle as close as they can the to the wheel area to try and put it back into spec. It does not cost a lot in material, it just costs in labor and skill to do it.
The question on how did your axle get knocked out of toe alignment? That is a good question if it was made and installed right from day one. Excess spring bushing wear can affect toe as it moves the axle in relation to the tow ball. To actually bend an axle towing, don’t know how that would happen unless you really hit the axle hard on something near the wheel causing the bend. I’m sure someone has actually done this, just it must of been a real jolt in the TV when it occurred and I'm sure they "might" reacall when it happend. I suppose hitting a major pot hole at high speed could create havoc as well.
When you are out of spec on toe, it creates a scrub angle to the road as the tire rolls along that literally scrubs the tire away. Which in my case, was one of my biggest tire wearing issues.
Camber. Our TT axles come pre bent in the middle to create camber. As we load the TT, the tubes flex and we get less camber. As long as you are in spec to start with and do not overload the axle, camber stays. The same axle shop who bends for toe can also add camber back into the axle tube. However if your axle tube actually lost camber that once had it, to me that points to some where in it’s life it was overloaded and the trailer loads actually bent it. Or it was never pre-camber bent to spec from day one at the factory.
Here is what camber in the middle of the axle looks like. (Don't mind my old work shoes. They need an upgrade too
In case something is bent at the wheel, you can check it at the brake drum
And you can check it at the wheel. This quick method dougsee3 (Doug) turned me onto. Here a bent rim can show up if you do this in 4 places around the rim.
If your axle looses camber, it too can create heavy wear as the tire goes sort of too flat to the road.
I actually have a hydraulic conduit bender capable of 4” sch 40 pipe which has enough umph to bend these 3” 5,200# axle tubes. However while bending conduit is one thing, tweaking an axle is a bit unforgiving if you bend to far…. Bending it back is not so easy. So I did not head down this route but did consider it.
In my case since my hangers where out of whack and both axle tubes had a major toe out issue as the axles where made wrong, I went for the root of the problem and to create an adjustable platform that I could in the future tweak back in if it ever goes out.
As JJBIRISH stated, pending how bad your TT is, 1 1/2 hrs at a truck shop could solve your issues. In my case, well the hours are a lot more then that….. and I learned a whole lot in the process I never knew before. Now yearly I can check and tweak my alignment if needed. I’ll report back as I track the tire wear across this year.
Out of all these hours of learning was the to hope to pass it along to fellow campers my trials and tribulations as like I said I have not really found much details on line about TT wheel alignment and exactly what do they do. Even Trailer life has a mini blurb about wearing tires, take it to a shop to have the axles aligned. OK but what did they do?? Our RV.net Blog has a blurb too but did not go into the details I was hoping for.
I guess the big learning out of all this is, if you are wearing tires on your TT, there is something you can do about it.
Hope this helps and Happy camping
John
* This post was
edited 04/26/09 12:26pm by JBarca *
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