American Made wrote: Anyone sufficiently risk averse would do better to stay at home, and never even drive anywhere not to mention taking the huge risk of towing a camper -- whether in their "rated capacity" or not!
The "overloaded" accident story linked above is questionable at best. And there is not a wealth of "actual disaster stories" on line of people towing over weight. I looked before asking the question (under the adage "don't ask a question if you don't already know the answer").
I wonder if this thread would have as much play if it had been written about going 80 MPH but within "rated capacities". I'd guess no one would have had any objection. Especially if the tow vehicle was a 3500 Diesel
Well, I gave it a shot. But all you did when I tried to suggest using more caution was to categorize me as a lump of quivering flesh curled up in the fetal position who shouldn't tow a camper. Your lack of ability to insult someone during what is meant to be a reasonable debate is only surpassed by your ability to dismiss facts and examples as real as your OP.
The story I found was a post on a forum, as true as your orignial story was on your post. Either they are both true or they are both false.
I usually enjoy a good debate, but when I realize that my opponent is not willing to concede even some basic points, I realize that my time can be better spent. I defended you slightly in my first post as someone who I didn't feel the need to avoid on the highway. Sometimes I wonder if the whole point is to get people excited as some kind of sport. I was just trying to get you to consider the possibility that by being overweight, you MIGHT open yourself up to legal ramifications if there ever were an accident that was your fault.
Can you at the very least concede that point?
Dirk
Myself (36), my Wife(33, "The Boy"(4), & "The Girl"(negative 4 months and counting down!)
06 GMC Sierra 1500 Crew Cab, 5.3L V8, 3.42rear
05 30QBSS Trail-Cruiser, Prodigy BC, Reese Dual Cam W/D
Well, I gave it a shot. But all you did when I tried to suggest using more caution was to categorize me as a lump of quivering flesh curled up in the fetal position who shouldn't tow a camper. Your lack of ability to insult someone during what is meant to be a reasonable debate is only surpassed by your ability to dismiss facts and examples as real as your OP.
The story I found was a post on a forum, as true as your orignial story was on your post. Either they are both true or they are both false.
I usually enjoy a good debate, but when I realize that my opponent is not willing to concede even some basic points, I realize that my time can be better spent. I defended you slightly in my first post as someone who I didn't feel the need to avoid on the highway. Sometimes I wonder if the whole point is to get people excited as some kind of sport. I was just trying to get you to consider the possibility that by being overweight, you MIGHT open yourself up to legal ramifications if there ever were an accident that was your fault.
Can you at the very least concede that point?
No insult was intended, so I am happy to note your observation that I have an evident lack of ability in that department.
There is a logical error in saying "either they are both true or both false". It is entirely possible for one to be true and the other false, especially given that they come from different sources.
I apologize for the characterizing you as a lump of quivering flesh. . . It was really more of a hyperbole, and not directed at you, and it was to suggest that safety is a continuum, and (in case it isn't clear from my numerous other posts) the rated capacity is found along that continuum but does not HAVE to be an absolute.
In terms of conceding a point, I will certainly concede that if I cause an accident that is my fault, I am open to legal ramifications. I could be sued for neglecting to maintain my wheel bearings, for running with my tail lights out (for example, the wiring in the trailer has a loose connection) for pulling out into the path of traffic, etc. etc. I could also face consequences for towing a trailer that, as loaded, exceeds my Tundra's rated capacities.
If I were sued or charged in such a situation, the rated pin weight of the trailer is 1370 lbs, the rated weight of the trailer is 8,600 lbs, and my Tundra is rated for a payload of 1530 and rated to tow 10,300 lbs. So the argument of "reckless disregard for others" would be a very big stretch. Of course, loading the trailer increases these weights, and that is why I put air bags and 10 ply tires on where passenger tires were what the truck came with. This is simply reasonable precautions.
If I have an accident, I think it's highly unlikely that it will be due to overloading. Just as the accidents you can find, searching with Google or whatever, are cited as due to speed, traffic conditions, poor or out of balance loading, and a host of other factors.
Add to the fact that I took my truck and trailer through a provincial weigh scale, and was given the "all clear" by the MTO official at the scale, is for me reassuring.
Oh, and by this point in the debate, kraushad, I think the point may well have become "getting people excited as some kind of sport". Frankly, I'm surprised the mods have let this persist as long as they have, as little new has been added for a while.
2007 Tundra DC Limited 4X4
LT E range BFG tires, Firestone air bags,
Warn winch. JBL 10 spkr 440 watt stereo with Sirius.
Various performance and convenience mods.
Towing 2005 Keystone Cougar 314EFS
Backwoods camping powered by Honda EU 3000 is
American Made wrote: ...If I were sued or charged in such a situation, the rated pin weight of the trailer is 1370 lbs, the rated weight of the trailer is 8,600 lbs, and my Tundra is rated for a payload of 1530 and rated to tow 10,300 lbs...
As long as you weigh 160 lbs or less, then it may be correct. However, based on the fact that you substantiated your weights, and publicly acknowledged that you were in excess of the rating, I would find you negligent.
And, I let the last slime ball off when I was a juror because of reasonable doubt.
Dad of Four Girls
Wife
2001 Yukon XL (8.1L, 4.10)
2002 Dutchmen 31BH4DSL
NC Hauler wrote: I think it would be stupid driving 80 miles per hour while towing, whether it was a Toyota Corolla
BTDT.
1) Reading these forums you might get the impression that you need a 1/2 ton truck to tow a small boat or flat bed trailer. The FACT is a Corolla is rated to tow 1500lbs and if the trailers are properly loaded you don't get any significant reduction in handling till about 1200lbs.
2) When I tow that trailer behind my long-ish truck, I center it in the pull thru parking space by lifting the back end up and carrying it sideways. The FACT is the tail ain't heavy enough to wag even a Corolla when it isn't loaded. (No, I wouldn't drive it that fast after adding a dozen sheets of drywall.)
2) Reading these forums you might get the impression that trailer tires will explode if you exceed 65mph. The fact is that less than five year old properly inflated trailer tires carrying less than half their rated load are actually rated for 75mph and aren't likely to explode if you bring them up to 80mph for a minute to pass. Old underinflated tires carrying near their maximum rated load for long distances over 65mph will eventually blow out. The FACT is removing the old, underinflated, and close to capacity part of the equation will make you safer than driving at 64mph instead of 66mph.
Smartest thing in the world to do? Probably not. Terribly risky? Probably not. I think I'm more likely to be killed in the Corolla by being hit by someone in a large "safe" tow vehicle with no trailer behind it in an intersection than by passing someone at 80mph with a trailer on the interstate.
Quote: Bottom Line, So the Toyota owners manual tells you what weights to tow.(FACT), and they have a GVWR sticker on the door jamb(FACT), so what kind of a decision are YOU going to make based on THOSE FACTS???
Goint to go ahead and add an extra 1,000# to your GVWR knowing the FACTS recommend not doing so???????????
A fact is that I don't think I ever said it was a good idea to tow 1000lbs over GVWR or endorsed AM's combo. I would want more facts before making that decision for myself. To start with, I don't know the rating of the axle or the rating of the wheel studs.
The fact is the GVWR and tow rating stickers are not based on law. The fact is GVWR and tow ratings are not only driven by engineering - legal, marketing, and accounting all influence GVWR and tow ratings. The fact is there are no standards for GVWR or tow ratings across the industry. The fact is that in practice air bags are helper springs and are used by many users to carry more weight than the stock springs handle effectively. The fact is there are far more dangerous rigs on the road than his every day and I rarely hear of one of them damaging anything but their own vehicle. The fact is driver inattention is the most common cause of vehicle crashes. Concentrating on driving will do more to prevent accidents than anything else. Drivers are sued for not paying attention all the time.
I was going to stay out of this but can't 80mph is crazy to tow excepy most Eastern seaboard states 70mph. is legal so is 76 so far off base. Don't start on me I tow 60 no matter what state I'm in my tires are rated65 and I stay under that. What gets me are people who blow every thing out of poporation.
Wow, lot of facts, looks like you win the prize in the Cracker Jack box. Doggone the manuals, the stickers on the truck and full speed ahead, none of it means anything anyway. Everything you mentioned above is known by those of us who have been around awhile, bascially, nothing new under the sun. I won't drive 75-80 mph because I don't think it's smart. I get better mpg towing at 55-60,(which actually means money saved to me), and I feel like I have more control over my combo when driving said 55-60 mph. I also know how to maintain all of my tires at their correct psi, and know how to take care of them, so no worry of being under or over inflated. Take it however you want to, but when you jump in condeming someone for saying something about someone towing SO GROSSLY over their GVWR, and coming to the aid of someone who admits their at least that much over their GVWR, you just condoned it by telling everyone why it's ok.
I really love the part about the stickers aren't law..well, duh!! But, being on the safe side, when I finally got a little educated about GVWR's and Rear Axle rating loads, at that point, I decided that I would be really stupid and try to stay within the guidlines, of what the manufacturer recommends, THOUGH THEY ARE NOT "THE LAW", I can't help but figure they know more about what they're vehicle can take than I do. Thus the reason I DO pay attention to their own recommendations for towing with their vehicles..and that is FACT.
Jim & Kathy
07.5 Chevy K3500DRW/CC/LB/LMM/D/A/6speed/ LTZ,Prodigy,Reese 20K Ht.
08 Jeep Liberty Sport Trail Rated
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Ok..after 43 pages of the same thing....conclusion? Anyone?? AM....you appear to be over the stated weight ratings that the MFG of your truck (and mine) by a fair amount. Are you going to buy a 3/4 ton? No? OK...be safe. The rest of you guys are right...but he will not change. Again...let us know how she performs in the next few years...OK??
AM...question...I have read that this combo is better than your previous 3/4 ton Dodge I think it was. How exactly does it ride/tow better? Was it a diesel? What year 3/4 ton? Just curious.
Lastly...what about all these 3/4 ton trucks towing the Raptor 5th wheel...triple axles, 38 ft long? I read the pin weight is closer to 3K lbs? They have to be overloaded too? I know the 3/4 ton vs 1 ton is basically a leaf spring...but these guys have those things LOADED with 3/4 ton SRW trucks....should they be in an F450? MDT?? I really don't know, but I see them all the time too.
The story was interesting about the crash too. One place in Cali they go is over the Grapevine to a dune area...and it gets sooooo windy there it is scary. I rode my bike through there a month ago...40+ MPH crosswinds....would not want to be in a truck towing.
NC Hauler wrote: Take it however you want to, but when you jump in condeming someone for saying something about someone towing SO GROSSLY over their GVWR, and coming to the aid of someone who admits their at least that much over their GVWR, you just condoned it by telling everyone why it's ok.
I am going to condem someone for saying something I believe is incorrect about towing so grossly over gvwr to make their point.
Being over GCWR/GVWR is not illegal in every state. (By challenging it, I learned that being over tire and axle mfg's ratings is against the law in Utah.)
A Tundra is as American as the other half tons. It was designed and built in America by American workers with most of the parts coming from North America.
The Tundra does not have the highest domestic content of the 1/2 tons. Similar domestic content as F150, higher than Ram, lower than Silverado.
A licensed alterer can change the GVWR of a vehicle. Someone who changes only mirrors, tires, rims, and paint is not an alterer. That does not mean an alterer cannot change those things.
Ride-rites do compress, do increase in pressure when they compress, and do act as progressive rate helper springs.
When ride-rites are inflated they do change the spring rate of the rear suspension.
Its safe to do a lot more with a 1/2 ton than tow a small boat or flat bed trailer. You don't need a 1/2 ton to do those things.
Speed and weight need to be considered as part of safe driving. Exceeding either of them will not instantly lead to mayhem on the roadways. They are not the only issues, nor the most important issues in driving safely.
I'm basically following this thread for two reasons. To challenge misinformation and I still legitimately want to know the weight rating of the axle in his truck.
NC Hauler wrote: Take it however you want to, but when you jump in condeming someone for saying something about someone towing SO GROSSLY over their GVWR, and coming to the aid of someone who admits their at least that much over their GVWR, you just condoned it by telling everyone why it's ok.
I am going to condem someone for saying something I believe is incorrect about towing so grossly over gvwr to make their point.
Being over GCWR/GVWR is not illegal in every state. (By challenging it, I learned that being over tire and axle mfg's ratings is against the law in Utah.)
A Tundra is as American as the other half tons. It was designed and built in America by American workers with most of the parts coming from North America.
The Tundra does not have the highest domestic content of the 1/2 tons. Similar domestic content as F150, higher than Ram, lower than Silverado.
A licensed alterer can change the GVWR of a vehicle. Someone who changes only mirrors, tires, rims, and paint is not an alterer. That does not mean an alterer cannot change those things.
Ride-rites do compress, do increase in pressure when they compress, and do act as progressive rate helper springs.
When ride-rites are inflated they do change the spring rate of the rear suspension.
Its safe to do a lot more with a 1/2 ton than tow a small boat or flat bed trailer. You don't need a 1/2 ton to do those things.
Speed and weight need to be considered as part of safe driving. Exceeding either of them will not instantly lead to mayhem on the roadways. They are not the only issues, nor the most important issues in driving safely.
I'm basically following this thread for two reasons. To challenge misinformation and I still legitimately want to know the weight rating of the axle in his truck.
His axle rating (someplace in the mess is 4,150lbs) and he has weighed his rig and is anywhere from 400lbs+ over that rating and more once loaded for camping.
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