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Topic: Toad wiring question

Posted By: tporter on 06/13/09 09:12pm

Usually we tow my truck behind the motorhome. Last time out with my truck I was told that the brake lights aren't working when being towed. Today I wired the Jeep up to be towed, when it is behind my truck all lights work fine. When behind the motorhome, no brake lights. Both toads have the four wire setup. I pulled the plug apart on the motorhome to see where the problem is. All wires are accounted for, left turn, right turn, brake, and tail lights. The plug on the motorhome is the six way round plug. Going clockwise, on the top is the running lights, then at 3 o' clock the right blinker, just past six o' clock the negative or ground, 9 o'clock left turn. Coming off of the motorhome I have a fifth wire which is the brake lights. Where does this tie in at? I'm basically going from five wires on the motorhome to four on the jeep, same as my truck. What am I missing? Do I need to add another line for the jeep brake lights?

Motorhome is a 2003 Fleetwood Discovery, air brakes. The truck does have the braking system that works off of air to apply the brake pedal.


Posted By: wallynm on 06/13/09 09:29pm

Explain to me how you maintain aground between the MH and the FROG. To me you need the following in a 4 wire system. 1. left turn and brake light, 2. rt turn and brake 3. running lights, 4 ground. White is generally ground and do not remember the other colors.

tporter wrote:

Usually we tow my truck behind the motorhome. Last time out with my truck I was told that the brake lights aren't working when being towed. Today I wired the Jeep up to be towed, when it is behind my truck all lights work fine. When behind the motorhome, no brake lights. Both toads have the four wire setup. I pulled the plug apart on the motorhome to see where the problem is. All wires are accounted for, left turn, right turn, brake, and tail lights. The plug on the motorhome is the six way round plug. Going clockwise, on the top is the running lights, then at 3 o' clock the right blinker, just past six o' clock the negative or ground, 9 o'clock left turn. Coming off of the motorhome I have a fifth wire which is the brake lights. Where does this tie in at? I'm basically going from five wires on the motorhome to four on the jeep, same as my truck. What am I missing? Do I need to add another line for the jeep brake lights?

Motorhome is a 2003 Fleetwood Discovery, air brakes. The truck does have the braking system that works off of air to apply the brake pedal.



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Posted By: tporter on 06/13/09 09:46pm

Both tail lights on the Jeep are grounded. When the Jeep is hooked up behind the truck everything works great (truck is a 06' trailer wiring was done at the factory.) When each of the vehicles are hooked up behind the motorhome everything works great except no brakes lights. I'm not sure what to tie the brake wire into??


Posted By: hwybnb on 06/13/09 10:02pm

A 4-wire system does not have a separate brake circuit. It uses the turn signal lamps as brake lights. If you have a separate brake signal from the motorhome you will need to run it to both turn signals on the toad using diodes to prevent feedback.



* This post was edited 06/13/09 10:11pm by hwybnb *


Posted By: enblethen on 06/13/09 10:10pm

No, your brake lights work off the same lamp filament as the turn signals if you have red turn signals on Jeep.
How did they wire a six pin up? You may need to find where they tapped into the jeep system.
Does your coach have amber turn signals? If yes, and your toads have red turn signals you need a three to two converter.


Brite-Lite™ Wiring Converter
If you have this — the motorhome has separate brake and turn signal lights; the towed vehicle has combined brake and turn signal lights.
"Then you need this — the Brite-Lite Wiring Converter delivers more current to the towed vehicle’s brake and turn signal lights for brighter illumination.

732 Brite-Lite 3-to-2 converter" Taken from Roadmasterinc.com website


Bud
USAF Retired
Suzuki XL7 pushing Pace Arrow




Posted By: ShapeShifter on 06/14/09 08:16am

One thing I didn't see mentioned in all of the suggestions: the OP should check all of the MH fuses. It's not unheard of for there to be fuses that feed just the trailer plug.


2007 Holiday Rambler Endeavor 40PDQ LE
400 ISL Cummins/Allison
2013 Ford F-150 FX4 toad

Inside: Him, Her, and a pack of little furballs...



Posted By: Dutch_12078 on 06/14/09 07:05am

hwybnb wrote:

miket wrote:

Wiring diagram is wrong, you will supply brake signal to tail light filament, not brake filament
The wiring diagram is correct for a four-wire setup, which is what the OP said he has.

The way your diagram has it, there would be no brake light indication at all when the tail lights are turned on.

Dutch


Posted By: enblethen on 06/14/09 07:27am

There is a tailight converter hid somewhere on your coach. One of the circuits is bad in it.


Posted By: miket on 06/13/09 10:35pm

Wiring diagram is wrong, you will supply brake signal to tail light filament, not brake filament. On a red only system, turn and brake are the same filament, while tail is the dimmer filament in the bulb.

Since it works off the truck, the motorhome plug needs to be checked. If MH is red only system, re-wire the MH plug so all works.


Mike T
2005 Winnebago Voyage 33V, Workhorse W20, with '06 CR-V in tow, SMI 4 wire Braking system, Blue Ox Underskirt, Pressure Pro.


Posted By: tporter on 06/13/09 10:37pm

The motorhome has amber turn signals with red brake lights. The Jeep has red turn signals. A dealer wired the truck when I bought the motorhome, I wired the Jeep myself. Both vehicles work like they should except behind the motorhome. The system is completely seperate from the electrical system on both the truck and the Jeep. Starting at the back of the mh. A six pin round connector. Between the toad and the mh is a short line with the 6 pin plug on one end and a round 4 pin on the other. From there, four wires back to the right light of the vehicles. A seperate bulb was added in the light area for both vehicles. From there two wires run over to the other light. I bought a wiring kit that included all wire, bulb, ground wire etc... At the rear of the mh is a wire that should be my brake wire (when the brake is applied the wire is hot) I just don't know where to tie it into the system. Again all other wires are accounted for, one for the left turn, one for the right turn, one for the running lights, and one ground. Wiring on both vehicles is four wire from the rear of the mh to the rear of the vehicles, it is not tied into the vehicles system in any way both systems have seperate bulbs that have been added into the rear light assembly.


Posted By: justimagination on 06/13/09 10:52pm

tporter wrote:

The motorhome has amber turn signals with red brake lights. The Jeep has red turn signals. A dealer wired the truck when I bought the motorhome, I wired the Jeep myself. Both vehicles work like they should except behind the motorhome. The system is completely seperate from the electrical system on both the truck and the Jeep. Starting at the back of the mh. A six pin round connector. Between the toad and the mh is a short line with the 6 pin plug on one end and a round 4 pin on the other. From there, four wires back to the right light of the vehicles. A seperate bulb was added in the light area for both vehicles. From there two wires run over to the other light. I bought a wiring kit that included all wire, bulb, ground wire etc... At the rear of the mh is a wire that should be my brake wire (when the brake is applied the wire is hot) I just don't know where to tie it into the system. Again all other wires are accounted for, one for the left turn, one for the right turn, one for the running lights, and one ground. Wiring on both vehicles is four wire from the rear of the mh to the rear of the vehicles, it is not tied into the vehicles system in any way both systems have seperate bulbs that have been added into the rear light assembly.

You have just about confused yourself. Make it simple, go to Walmart and get you a 4 wire connector for the Motorhome, and get the matching plug for it to use on your truck. FORGET THE BRAKE WIRE THAT IS "HOT" WHEN YOU APPLY THE BRAKES, that's a brake control wire. It only takes WHITE,GREEN,BROWN,YELLOW. Your turn signals are your brake lamps regardless what color of bulbs you have. JMHO, good luck,
David G.



1997 Fleetwood Southwind 37Y/Ford 460/Power Platform/ Tag Axle
Crew:Yorkie,Twin Japanese Chins,Standard & Minature Poodle,Chihuahua,Cockatiel,and last but not least,MOM,wife & CO-PILOT. 1999 Tahoe 4 Dr.
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Posted By: FIRE UP on 06/13/09 10:59pm

tporter,
Most of the answers you've received are accurate. What you may not understand is, the coach has an amber turn signal system which means that the brake lights and the turn signals are two separate systems. On the jeep, the brake light system and the turn signal system are the same. Depending on the position of your turn signal lever in the jeep, the brake lights are only sent to one side. When the turn signal lever is in the neutral position, you get two brake lights.

On the coach, it doesn't matter what position the turn signal lever is in, you still get two brake lights. So, an adapter is needed to combine the two systems so that the "toad" knows what your asking of it, and the coach is sending the "corrected" signals to the toad.
Most of the boys here have guided you on the correct path in the wiring department to correct your problem. Good luck and happy Rving.
Scott



Scott and Karla
SDFD RETIRED
2004 Itasca Horizon, 36GD Slate Blue 330 CAT
2011 GMC Sierra 1500 Ext Cab 4x4 Toad
2008 Caliente Red LVL II GL 1800 Goldwing
KI60ND



Posted By: hwybnb on 06/13/09 11:04pm

miket wrote:

Wiring diagram is wrong, you will supply brake signal to tail light filament, not brake filament
The wiring diagram is correct for a four-wire setup, which is what the OP said he has.

* This post was edited 06/14/09 06:43am by hwybnb *


Posted By: Dutch_12078 on 06/14/09 07:00am

tporter wrote:

The motorhome has amber turn signals with red brake lights. The Jeep has red turn signals. A dealer wired the truck when I bought the motorhome, I wired the Jeep myself. Both vehicles work like they should except behind the motorhome. The system is completely seperate from the electrical system on both the truck and the Jeep. Starting at the back of the mh. A six pin round connector. Between the toad and the mh is a short line with the 6 pin plug on one end and a round 4 pin on the other. From there, four wires back to the right light of the vehicles. A seperate bulb was added in the light area for both vehicles. From there two wires run over to the other light. I bought a wiring kit that included all wire, bulb, ground wire etc... At the rear of the mh is a wire that should be my brake wire (when the brake is applied the wire is hot) I just don't know where to tie it into the system. Again all other wires are accounted for, one for the left turn, one for the right turn, one for the running lights, and one ground. Wiring on both vehicles is four wire from the rear of the mh to the rear of the vehicles, it is not tied into the vehicles system in any way both systems have seperate bulbs that have been added into the rear light assembly.

I answered essentially this same question not long ago:

Tail light converter post


Dutch
1995 Coachmen Catalina 322QBXL
F53 chassis, 460 V8, TST TPMS
Quadra Bigfoot EZE Levelers
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/Blue Ox baseplate



Posted By: hwybnb on 06/14/09 07:52am

Dutch_12078 wrote:

The way your diagram has it, there would be no brake light indication at all when the tail lights are turned on.Dutch
Thanks Dutch. My bad. In my haste to draw the diagram last night I goofed. The brake light wire should connect to the toad turn signals. I have corrected the diagram.

A 5-way to 4-way converter module will perform the same function.


Posted By: wallynm on 06/15/09 07:46pm

You are correct and they cast around 10 bucks. I carry them in both my Suburban and the MH. Just plug the round end intot he Mh and a correctly wired 4 pin flat male end into the flat female end of the converter.

Troubleshooter wrote:

Your Discovery on the Freightliner chassis has a five wire system. The Brake lights are separate from the Turn Signals.
What you need is a converter, which allows the four wire system on your towed vehicle to use the turn signal lights as both turn and brake lights.
You can either get a five to four wire converter, and hook up all the wires through it, or get a three to two wire converter, and only run the Turn Signal and Brake wires through it and bypass it for the Tail Lights and Ground.
I suspect your Discovery was mis-wired from the 'git-go' in regards to the tow vehicle/trailer setup.
You can usually locate the tail light converters at Wal-Mart, NAPA, Marine dealers, or RV parts suppliers.


Only One Old Fellow's Opinion



Posted By: RamblinFever on 06/15/09 06:43pm

Dutch_12078 wrote:

hwybnb wrote:

Dutch_12078 wrote:

The way your diagram has it, there would be no brake light indication at all when the tail lights are turned on.Dutch
Thanks Dutch. My bad. In my haste to draw the diagram last night I goofed. The brake light wire should connect to the toad turn signals. I have corrected the diagram.

A 5-way to 4-way converter module will perform the same function.

Well, even with the correction it's still not quite going to work quite right. If the brakes are on, lighting up both turn signal bulbs, then the turn signals will not be able to blink the bulbs, as they're already on, and when off, either turn signal will blink both bulbs. The converter circuitry handles that situation properly, by still allowing the bulb to flash with the brakes applied. Better to spend the few dollars for the converter.

Dutch

The problem with the diagram is that the left and right signals are tied together so both will go on together, even when turn signals are used. Use two diodes, one on each branch of the brake circuit (blue lines), instead of the single diode on the feed wire.


04 Bounder 35E, W-22
05 Honda CR-V, SMI brake


Posted By: Troubleshooter on 06/15/09 07:27pm

Your Discovery on the Freightliner chassis has a five wire system. The Brake lights are separate from the Turn Signals.
What you need is a converter, which allows the four wire system on your towed vehicle to use the turn signal lights as both turn and brake lights.
You can either get a five to four wire converter, and hook up all the wires through it, or get a three to two wire converter, and only run the Turn Signal and Brake wires through it and bypass it for the Tail Lights and Ground.
I suspect your Discovery was mis-wired from the 'git-go' in regards to the tow vehicle/trailer setup.
You can usually locate the tail light converters at Wal-Mart, NAPA, Marine dealers, or RV parts suppliers.


Only One Old Fellow's Opinion


Bill
2002 Discovery 3126E CAT
2004 Saturn VUE
Mountain Master Tow Brake



Posted By: hwybnb on 06/14/09 11:14am

Dutch_12078 wrote:


Well, even with the correction it's still not quite going to work quite right. If the brakes are on, lighting up both turn signal bulbs, then the turn signals will not be able to blink the bulbs, as they're already on, and when off, either turn signal will blink both bulbs. The converter circuitry handles that situation properly, by still allowing the bulb to flash with the brakes applied. Better to spend the few dollars for the converter.

Dutch
I do not disagree. The converter I had burned out while on a recent trip. I did the diode thing as a temporary patch and have not gotten around to changing it.


Posted By: Dutch_12078 on 06/14/09 08:17am

hwybnb wrote:

Dutch_12078 wrote:

The way your diagram has it, there would be no brake light indication at all when the tail lights are turned on.Dutch
Thanks Dutch. My bad. In my haste to draw the diagram last night I goofed. The brake light wire should connect to the toad turn signals. I have corrected the diagram.

A 5-way to 4-way converter module will perform the same function.

Well, even with the correction it's still not quite going to work quite right. If the brakes are on, lighting up both turn signal bulbs, then the turn signals will not be able to blink the bulbs, as they're already on, and when off, either turn signal will blink both bulbs. The converter circuitry handles that situation properly, by still allowing the bulb to flash with the brakes applied. Better to spend the few dollars for the converter.

Dutch


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