In those days the semis had big 230-250hp Cummins engines and 238 Detroits and we did fine. We didn't have disc brakes either. Trucks crossed the mountains for many years before high hp and engine brakes and without the shallow 6-7% slopes of interstates.
Today, even the factory 325+ hp isn't enough for a little pickup truck! More horsepower up and exhaust brakes etc down may be able to compensate for loss of intelligence on occasion but.... Too much gadgetry disrupts Darwin.
why are you even quoting HP numbers when talking about diesels??
the rig deisel with 230-250hp have about 1000ftlb of torque compared to a light duty diesel of 325hp only pushing 500 to 600 ftlbs huge differance when towing..
by adding more power in a diesel you are doing a few things, increasing efficiency, fuel milage and usaly if done right dropping egts. all this makes travel cheeper, more enviormentaly friendly and can help your motor last longer. a good example is I took my F250 from 500 ftlbs to about 900-950 ftlbs, I get better gas milage towing in the mountians than my F150 did empty. I can go up a grade 8 hill in overdrive at the 110kph speed limit with my EGTs down about 900 (pre turbo) with out the lock up clutch disengaging. By adding a exhaust brake I can go down that same hill safley with out touching the brakes and since the tranny is locked there is little heat build up as most heat is caused by the torque converter slipping. so my tranny is lasting longer, my brakes are lasting longer, my engine is lasting longer, and my gas money is lasting longer..
man I must be stupid to add that power and gizmos I didn't need.
why are you even quoting HP numbers when talking about diesels??
Maybe because Horsepower is the scientific method to measure work and I believe an operating diesel is capable of performing work? I could give all kinds of opinion but without scientific data to back it up it would be absolutely worthless. I suppose I could do it in BTUs or KW.
(quote=DSteiner51)
There is tons of opinion on the internet about engine braking but PLEASE! Back it up with official data. Simple engineering = simple to provide the data. I am not from Missouri but show me anyway. ANYONE???(/quote)
All we can do is provide you with known engineering principles which by the way was known long time before the net, from Cummins/International/Jacobs/Pacbrake/etc or any of the class eight truck engine makers, on this subject.
Sometime back you were provided with tech info from engineers from the Cummins web on the same reasons the diesel doesn't have vaccum, as a gas engine, for diesel engine braking and you wanted to argue with them.
Why don't you contact the source of our known principles and let them explain what diesel engine builders and diesel operators already know. I'm sure they can provide you with data to back up what they claim.
You seem to be saying know diesel engine principles are not correct. If so can you provide us with enginering data from a credible sourse such as any of the diesel manufactures or exhaust brake manufactures or .......... for your theory.
"good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" Will Rogers
'03 2500 QC Dodge/Cummins HO 3.73 6 speed manual Jacobs Westach Linex
'97 Park Avanue 28' 5er with two slides 16" BFG Commercial LTs
All we can do is provide you with known engineering principles which by the way was known long time before the net, from Cummins/International/Jacobs/Pacbrake/etc or any of the class eight truck engine makers, on this subject.
Sometime back you were provided with tech info from engineers from the Cummins web on the same reasons the diesel doesn't have vaccum, as a gas engine, for diesel engine braking and you wanted to argue with them.
Why don't you contact the source of our known principles and let them explain what diesel engine builders and diesel operators already know. I'm sure they can provide you with data to back up what they claim.
You seem to be saying know diesel engine principles are not correct. If so can you provide us with enginering data from a credible sourse such as any of the diesel manufactures or exhaust brake manufactures or .......... for your theory.
1.I find this post amusing. Coming from one who will argue and insist you know more then LEO's such as Wadcutter and others about weight laws as they pertain to Rvr's.
2. I don't need to argue with anyone. I had thot I threw engineering data away years ago on gas and diesel engines but while cleaning out some filing cabinets to make room for new stuff I found the old which is one reason I asked the question. I have data from Ford gas and diesel industrial engines, Kubota gas and diesel, Honda gas and diesel, John Deere, Yanmar, White, Perkins, Mitsubishi, Deutz, Cummins and Cat. The info is all old technology that I have.
3. Because of so much false info on RV.net I have been trying to post pictures, charts, etc from official sources such as bearing load modification charts, wind resistance charts, horsepower required charts etc. I would like new engineering data from current engines to post instead of 30-40 year old data before turbochargers were real common, common rail injection was unheard of, and computer engine controls were "technology of the future."
Years ago many industrial engine manufacturers had comparable sized engines in gas and diesel so the consumer could choose how he fueled his equipment. Today most, but not all, have gone diesel so it is harder to find two similar sized engines gas and diesel to compare. Hopefully a reader here will have access to any engines which might still be available so that I can post them here for all to see.
Sure there will be those that no matter how much scientific data is presented will still want to argue but you won't get it from me if I can get my hands on the data. I just want to post the actual data then each individual can do with it as he wants.
I would also like for someone to explain to everyone why engine brakes or exhaust brakes work so well on a diesel but not a gas engine. The answer is really quite simple so I'll let the experts explain it. The experts will also be able to give the advantages and disadvantages of the engine brake and exhaust brake.
I don't. A man starts a thread about his experience with a product, explains why he wanted it and the type of driving/towing he does. He's immediately told he's using the wrong gear, wasted his money, and doesn't need it.
Some of you must have slept past nap time in kindergarten, you missed some important lessons, like not saying anything unless have something nice to say.
3. Because of so much false info on RV.net I have been trying to post pictures, charts, etc from official sources such as bearing load modification charts, wind resistance charts, horsepower required charts etc. I would like new engineering data from current engines to post instead of 30-40 year old data before turbochargers were real common, common rail injection was unheard of, and computer engine controls were "technology of the future."
Years ago many industrial engine manufacturers had comparable sized engines in gas and diesel so the consumer could choose how he fueled his equipment. Today most, but not all, have gone diesel so it is harder to find two similar sized engines gas and diesel to compare. Hopefully a reader here will have access to any engines which might still be available so that I can post them here for all to see.
Sure there will be those that no matter how much scientific data is presented will still want to argue but you won't get it from me if I can get my hands on the data. I just want to post the actual data then each individual can do with it as he wants.
(snip)
WOW, making it personell ain't ya'. What does all the first part have to do with the engineering principles on diesels lack of or very little engine braking you ask for. You can dispute those principles but as usual its not necessary to get personell in your replies.
Lets see now you have been presented with the principles from several posters and also web sites from engine and EB manufactures for the reason diesel have little engine braking and we on RV.net are spreading false info. Do a google Jack. Pages and pages on the subject.
I think members of RV.net would be interested in what exactly all those scientific data facts you have that says those principles are wrong. I would imagine those engine makers/exhaust brake makers would be interested also in why their wrong also.
why are you even quoting HP numbers when talking about diesels??
Maybe because Horsepower is the scientific method to measure work and I believe an operating diesel is capable of performing work? I could give all kinds of opinion but without scientific data to back it up it would be absolutely worthless. I suppose I could do it in BTUs or KW.
but horsepower is a dirivitive of speed and force, the force is torque. at any rate a gas engine and a diesel engine do not compare in HP or Torque so it is very hard to compare them to each other.
but to help you with your other question.. diesels actualy do have a lot of braking force with out a exhaust brake.. they have a much higher compression which is harder to turn over... the lacking part was our trannies and the fact that older ones used to only lock up in OD. my 99 ford will lock up in 2, 3 and OD and it did pretty good for stopping the trailer.. now I did add a exhaust brake and it works that much better as now the load has to overcome the compression of the engine, then the back pressure in the exhaust. now there is going to be differences between different diesels, dodge is a smaller displacment and only 6 Cyl so it will have less braking force than my 7.3 and so on.. at anyrate the OP liked his EB, I like mine, and I have never heard of anyone saying I put a EB on and hate it so there must be somthing there.
Steve
Steve
* This post was
edited 07/04/09 06:18pm by StirCrazy *
but to help you with your other question.. diesels actualy do have a lot of braking force with out a exhaust brake.. they have a much higher compression which is harder to turn over... the lacking part was our trannies and the fact that older ones used to only lock up in OD. my 99 ford will lock up in 2, 3 and OD and it did pretty good for stopping the trailer.. now I did add a exhaust brake and it works that much better as now the load has to overcome the compression of the engine, then the back pressure in the exhaust. now there is going to be differences between different diesels, dodge is a smaller displacment and only 6 Cyl so it will have less braking force than my 7.3 and so on.. at anyrate the OP liked his EB, I like mine, and I have never heard of anyone saying I put a EB on and hate it so there must be somthing there.
Steve
Steve
Wow! You are 100% correct! You best put on your anti flame suit. You are going to need it. My older tech engine data will back your comments 100%. What you stated is contrary to thousands of pages on the internet. Now I need to find some new tech engine data to see if it agrees also.
I never knocked the engine and exhaust brake. I sometimes use them myself when I have them available. They do the job. I just stated in an earlier post that some folks rely on gadgets instead of brains. I stick by my post.
* This post was
edited 07/04/09 08:45pm by DSteiner51 *
I don't. A man starts a thread about his experience with a product, explains why he wanted it and the type of driving/towing he does. He's immediately told he's using the wrong gear, wasted his money, and doesn't need it.
Some of you must have slept past nap time in kindergarten, you missed some important lessons, like not saying anything unless have something nice to say.
Unsubscribed!
Unfortunately you are correct. I did exactly what I so often hate about RV.net. My first post appears to knock the OP. I didn't really mean it personally but took his post and responded thinking in a generic way which was not evident by the way I posted it. I owe the OP an apology. Thank you for pointing it out.
The post about amusing... I was referring to another particular post and yes, that post was amusing considering who it came from.
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