tomman58 wrote: You keep researching and you will find that the MAJORITY of money that comes from building Toyotas here goes right back to Japan. Granted there are SOME engineers and SOME research done here but the vast majority is in Japan. I've dealt with these people I learned their methods and business ideas. I have worked in their plants and seen first hand how they operate. If you think it's American to buy there stuff then you need more of you research.
Really? No offense, but do you understand how things such as publicly traded companies and economics in general work?
Let's start with the fact that Toyota is a publicly traded company, listed on Japanese stock exchanges as well as the New York Stock Exchange and the London Stock Exchange. This means that shareholders across the world benefit from Toyota's profitability, not just one owner, or owners or just shareholders in Japan.
Next, Toyota has built R&D facilities in the U.S. One of them is in Michigan, of all places. They have design facilities here, they have U.S. headquarters, in addition, they have a number of their manufacturing facilities in the U.S., many supplied by domestic suppliers. Now, economically, none of these are static entities. They aren't something that gets built and left to sit. They require a constant influx of capital (read: money, which comes from profits) in order to keep these facilities working, modern, and viable. Add to this the money from profits paid to suppliers, to workers, etc... and the majority of profits do not return to Japan.
Oh, and by the way, when Toyota needed to idle their San Antonio plant last year when gas prices caused truck sales to plummet, Toyota didn't lay any workers off. The workers furthered education, did community service, or whatever, and it cost Toyota tens of millions of dollars to do it. That sounds to me like an investment in workers and community that I haven't seen from the Big Three or the UAW.
Quote: Japan has more than sensitized their company s in order to dominate America, to them this is war and they are winning with your help
So the truth comes out. Ethnocentric paranoia raises its ugly head. If U.S. automakers can't compete on our home turf by producing a better product for a fair price, I would suggest that our domination is inevitable, regardless.
The funny thing is, when I researched it, the assertions I could find regarding "profits going back to Japan" came as responses to articles, not from any legitimate source.
While I too would congratulate you on a thought provoking post and going further into the subject than many Americans, you fall short on what is actually a very complex subject economically.
The Tundra is but one minor model of but one foreign manufacturer. Taken as a whole, the numbers of IMPORTED vehicles by the transplanted foreign manufacturers sold in the U.S. are by far the majority of their sales. While many of the naive would like us to believe in their constant advertising of how integrated into America they are, how they employ American workers, and how they sell stock to the profit of Americans...we would be ignoring one of our most serious economic problems of the day...balance of trade.
Because of our insatiable desire to purchase foreign goods at manipulated foreign currency exchange rates, we continuously are forced to borrow from these same countries to float our ever increasing negative trade balances. Conversely, we are treated unfairly by these trade partners. While we welcome with open arms their automotive, electronics, toys, clothing products, etc. without tariffs to protect domestic manufacturers, the circumstances going the other way are very different. Very little research will show the onerous financial burdens put on our manufacturer's exports and to even dream of building a factory there is impossible. On the other hand, those States with these transplant manufacturing facilities have invested billions of dollars in tax and cash incentives to attract them.
While both you and the high school economics teacher present a rather compelling argument on the surface of things, unfortunately you both are espousing what would be the preferred propaganda of the proponents of that particular economic model. I would suggest you both would be well served to do a little deeper research and go a little deeper into economic theory before you become self-satisfied that you are supporting the right model. The question is complex as I stated before and you have cited the exact reason we are rapidly becoming a society of service workers and consumers and a third rate manufacturing Country.
tomman58 wrote: You keep researching and you will find that the MAJORITY of money that comes from building Toyotas here goes right back to Japan. Granted there are SOME engineers and SOME research done here but the vast majority is in Japan. I've dealt with these people I learned their methods and business ideas. I have worked in their plants and seen first hand how they operate. If you think it's American to buy there stuff then you need more of you research.
Really? No offense, but do you understand how things such as publicly traded companies and economics in general work?
Let's start with the fact that Toyota is a publicly traded company, listed on Japanese stock exchanges as well as the New York Stock Exchange and the London Stock Exchange. This means that shareholders across the world benefit from Toyota's profitability, not just one owner, or owners or just shareholders in Japan.
Next, Toyota has built R&D facilities in the U.S. One of them is in Michigan, of all places. They have design facilities here, they have U.S. headquarters, in addition, they have a number of their manufacturing facilities in the U.S., many supplied by domestic suppliers. Now, economically, none of these are static entities. They aren't something that gets built and left to sit. They require a constant influx of capital (read: money, which comes from profits) in order to keep these facilities working, modern, and viable. Add to this the money from profits paid to suppliers, to workers, etc... and the majority of profits do not return to Japan.
Oh, and by the way, when Toyota needed to idle their San Antonio plant last year when gas prices caused truck sales to plummet, Toyota didn't lay any workers off. The workers furthered education, did community service, or whatever, and it cost Toyota tens of millions of dollars to do it. That sounds to me like an investment in workers and community that I haven't seen from the Big Three or the UAW.Are you freaking kidding me! Man don't know how I missed this in your post but hay you do know this is what I get my chops busted about on the board RIGHT? It was the UAW that started that program it's called the Jobs Bank (or was before the Feds took it away)! If we where laid off for any reason other then volume driven as in not selling cars, we went into the the JB program. If placed in the program you had to do one of three tings in order to get your pay. Option 1 go to school, or the UAW training center for job related training. Option two, work 8 hour a day 40 hours a week at a Non Profit Organization. Option three, report to your plant and sit in a room for 8 hours a day 40 hours a week (not very fun). So tell me why is it when we did this everyone cried and called us lazy, but when Toyota workers get the same thing they are a Great Group of guys? Please tell me I will love to hear this one!
Quote: Japan has more than sensitized their company s in order to dominate America, to them this is war and they are winning with your help
So the truth comes out. Ethnocentric paranoia raises its ugly head. If U.S. automakers can't compete on our home turf by producing a better product for a fair price, I would suggest that our domination is inevitable, regardless.
The funny thing is, when I researched it, the assertions I could find regarding "profits going back to Japan" came as responses to articles, not from any legitimate source.
Perrysburg Dodgeboy 2004 Dodge Ram 2500 Quad Cab SLT Cummins HO
2005 Keystone Cougar 304 BHS Back on layoff today UAW Auto Worker (Tool Makers Rule) pics
tomman58 wrote: You keep researching and you will find that the MAJORITY of money that comes from building Toyotas here goes right back to Japan. Granted there are SOME engineers and SOME research done here but the vast majority is in Japan. I've dealt with these people I learned their methods and business ideas. I have worked in their plants and seen first hand how they operate. If you think it's American to buy there stuff then you need more of you research.
Really? No offense, but do you understand how things such as publicly traded companies and economics in general work?
Let's start with the fact that Toyota is a publicly traded company, listed on Japanese stock exchanges as well as the New York Stock Exchange and the London Stock Exchange. This means that shareholders across the world benefit from Toyota's profitability, not just one owner, or owners or just shareholders in Japan.
Next, Toyota has built R&D facilities in the U.S. One of them is in Michigan, of all places. They have design facilities here, they have U.S. headquarters, in addition, they have a number of their manufacturing facilities in the U.S., many supplied by domestic suppliers. Now, economically, none of these are static entities. They aren't something that gets built and left to sit. They require a constant influx of capital (read: money, which comes from profits) in order to keep these facilities working, modern, and viable. Add to this the money from profits paid to suppliers, to workers, etc... and the majority of profits do not return to Japan.
Oh, and by the way, when Toyota needed to idle their San Antonio plant last year when gas prices caused truck sales to plummet, Toyota didn't lay any workers off. The workers furthered education, did community service, or whatever, and it cost Toyota tens of millions of dollars to do it. That sounds to me like an investment in workers and community that I haven't seen from the Big Three or the UAW.
Quote: Japan has more than sensitized their company s in order to dominate America, to them this is war and they are winning with your help
So the truth comes out. Ethnocentric paranoia raises its ugly head. If U.S. automakers can't compete on our home turf by producing a better product for a fair price, I would suggest that our domination is inevitable, regardless.
The funny thing is, when I researched it, the assertions I could find regarding "profits going back to Japan" came as responses to articles, not from any legitimate source.
While I too would congratulate you on a thought provoking post and going further into the subject than many Americans, you fall short on what is actually a very complex subject economically.
The Tundra is but one minor model of but one foreign manufacturer. Taken as a whole, the numbers of IMPORTED vehicles by the transplanted foreign manufacturers sold in the U.S. are by far the majority of their sales. While many of the naive would like us to believe in their constant advertising of how integrated into America they are, how they employ American workers, and how they sell stock to the profit of Americans...we would be ignoring one of our most serious economic problems of the day...balance of trade.
Because of our insatiable desire to purchase foreign goods at manipulated foreign currency exchange rates, we continuously are forced to borrow from these same countries to float our ever increasing negative trade balances. Conversely, we are treated unfairly by these trade partners. While we welcome with open arms their automotive, electronics, toys, clothing products, etc. without tariffs to protect domestic manufacturers, the circumstances going the other way are very different. Very little research will show the onerous financial burdens put on our manufacturer's exports and to even dream of building a factory there is impossible. On the other hand, those States with these transplant manufacturing facilities have invested billions of dollars in tax and cash incentives to attract them.
While both you and the high school economics teacher present a rather compelling argument on the surface of things, unfortunately you both are espousing what would be the preferred propaganda of the proponents of that particular economic model. I would suggest you both would be well served to do a little deeper research and go a little deeper into economic theory before you become self-satisfied that you are supporting the right model. The question is complex as I stated before and you have cited the exact reason we are rapidly becoming a society of service workers and consumers and a third rate manufacturing Country.
"While both you and the high school economics teacher present a rather compelling argument on the surface of things, unfortunately you both are espousing what would be the preferred propaganda of the proponents of that particular economic model. I would suggest you both would be well served to do a little deeper research and go a little deeper into economic theory before you become self-satisfied that you are supporting the right model. The question is complex as I stated before and you have cited the exact reason we are rapidly becoming a society of service workers and consumers and a third rate manufacturing Country."
Ron3rd wrote: Doc,
The tired old "all the profits go back to Japan" myth has been debunked many times. It still pops up from time to time though.
Did you not read the post by "Major Dads" post where the numbers show that over 70% of Toyota shares(therefor profit) are owned by Japanese folks? Kinda proves the "profits go back to Japan" myth don't it?
Mav
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Pair of '09 Polaris Sportsman 550 XP's
'05 Polaris Trail Boss 330
'03 Yamaha TTR125LR
1 wife, 2 kids, 3 dogs, 2 cats
It appears that I have my work cut out for me this morning, and all on my first cup of coffee!
JALLEN4 wrote: While I too would congratulate you on a thought provoking post and going further into the subject than many Americans, you fall short on what is actually a very complex subject economically.
The Tundra is but one minor model of but one foreign manufacturer. Taken as a whole, the numbers of IMPORTED vehicles by the transplanted foreign manufacturers sold in the U.S. are by far the majority of their sales. While many of the naive would like us to believe in their constant advertising of how integrated into America they are, how they employ American workers, and how they sell stock to the profit of Americans...we would be ignoring one of our most serious economic problems of the day...balance of trade.
Because of our insatiable desire to purchase foreign goods at manipulated foreign currency exchange rates, we continuously are forced to borrow from these same countries to float our ever increasing negative trade balances. Conversely, we are treated unfairly by these trade partners. While we welcome with open arms their automotive, electronics, toys, clothing products, etc. without tariffs to protect domestic manufacturers, the circumstances going the other way are very different. Very little research will show the onerous financial burdens put on our manufacturer's exports and to even dream of building a factory there is impossible. On the other hand, those States with these transplant manufacturing facilities have invested billions of dollars in tax and cash incentives to attract them.
While both you and the high school economics teacher present a rather compelling argument on the surface of things, unfortunately you both are espousing what would be the preferred propaganda of the proponents of that particular economic model. I would suggest you both would be well served to do a little deeper research and go a little deeper into economic theory before you become self-satisfied that you are supporting the right model. The question is complex as I stated before and you have cited the exact reason we are rapidly becoming a society of service workers and consumers and a third rate manufacturing Country.
I deliberately kept my answer as simple as possible. I did so because I truly didn't want to write a book on economics, and because I believe the discussion is political enough at this stage. You are correct, the situation is incredibly complex, and one could go into the fact that so much of our nation's debt is held by other countries, and what the possible repercussions of that simple fact is. We could discuss whether it makes any economic sense whatsoever to continue to print more money without any standard of backing it. We could discuss the concern of the dollar being replaced as a standard for international trade, or why it is kept artificially low against other currencies.
We could become even more specific and debate the merits of giving tax exemptions to manufacturers, and whether those exemptions are made up by the increased economic activity within areas where manufacturers settle. Even better, we could look into why we as a nation are punitive toward businesses and manufacturers that are headquartered here, and when in economic crisis tend to make things more difficult for them, virtually forcing them to go offshore in order to continue making a profit. Heck, we could follow that into a tangent on the relative merits of the FairTax.
I don't know about you, but I do enough persuasive writing and arguing in my day job (I'm an attorney), and don't feel like writing books here, especially when there have already been books written on the subject by those far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am. Looking at your post and what I have written directly above, surely you would agree that there have been volumes written on the subject(s) and that there is still no easy answer.
To reiterate, what I do know is that based on the research, my Tundra was the best choice at the time, even though it was not the "intuitive" choice. The fact that it was made in the U.S., by U.S. workers, of a majority U.S. sourced components, and that all of those workers then had money to spend here in the U.S. only made the decision easier.
Oh, and I do agree with your conclusion, although I am not sure I agree with all of the premises it is based upon.
Perrysburg Dodgeboy wrote: Are you freaking kidding me! Man don't know how I missed this in your post but hay you do know this is what I get my chops busted about on the board RIGHT? It was the UAW that started that program it's called the Jobs Bank (or was before the Feds took it away)! If we where laid off for any reason other then volume driven as in not selling cars, we went into the the JB program. If placed in the program you had to do one of three tings in order to get your pay. Option 1 go to school, or the UAW training center for job related training. Option two, work 8 hour a day 40 hours a week at a Non Profit Organization. Option three, report to your plant and sit in a room for 8 hours a day 40 hours a week (not very fun). So tell me why is it when we did this everyone cried and called us lazy, but when Toyota workers get the same thing they are a Great Group of guys? Please tell me I will love to hear this one!
I don't know whether what I am about to say will make you happy or disappoint you. I am not familiar with the program you cite. I don't understand being "laid off for any reason other than volume driven." I recall from growing up that there are scheduled plant closures for retooling and maintenance and the like. My dad was a machine repairman, so while everyone else was off for two weeks or so, he was working mandatory overtime. While that aspect of the program is one major contrast to what Toyota did when they were forced to idle the plant because they weren't selling vehicles, it is still something that I would tip my hat to, although there should have never have been an option three in my opinion. Either be productive or don't collect a check. Now, why exactly did the Feds do away with the program?
Oh, and thanks, you've taught me something new this morning, and I am still on my first cup of coffee.
MadMav wrote: Did you not read the post by "Major Dads" post where the numbers show that over 70% of Toyota shares(therefor profit) are owned by Japanese folks? Kinda proves the "profits go back to Japan" myth don't it?
Mav
Actually, the majority of shares are traded in Japanese stock markets. Of these, the vast majority are held by the Japanese. Shareholders may or may not receive dividends, but may just see an increase in the value of their shares based upon how the company is being traded. However, by looking solely at the stocks, you are neglecting the fact that profits are used to build, maintain and modernize facilities, to do R&D and design, and all of the other things that keep a company viable. Much of that money is currently staying in the U.S. If you want to quibble about whether 51% or 60% or 80% of Toyota's earnings "go back to Japan," then you are out of luck. It simply isn't something I am that interested in, any more than asking you for specifics of how much money from the building of your Dodge went to other countries.
"All music is folk music, I ain't never heard no horse sing a song'
-Louis Armstrong
I don't know whether what I am about to say will make you happy or disappoint you. I am not familiar with the program you cite.
You have never heard of the Jobs Bank, you know the one that was all over the news. "Big Three auto workers getting paid 100% of their pay to sit in plants, News at 11" I Goggled it for you,n-USfficial&client=firefox">LINK
I don't understand being "laid off for any reason other than volume driven."
Back when Damn-Liar owned us they cut every plants budget by like 30% and told the Plant Managers to cut the work force to achieve this (it's amazing what people toss in their trash, memos) so she did. They laid off enough people to make up the cut in the budget. This was not a volume related lay off they just wanted to put more money in Damn-Liar's coffers, so everyone went in the Jobs Bank.
BTW if you where in the program you also had to work at the plant to cover people that called off, vacations or cover people in training. That was one reason that a minimum of 15 JB people had to report to our plant every week. The staffing number was a percentage of the total number of hourly workers in the plant. So it was different for every plant.
I recall from growing up that there are scheduled plant closures for retooling and maintenance and the like. My dad was a machine repairman, so while everyone else was off for two weeks or so, he was working mandatory overtime.
Yep back when Dad was in the Tool Room @ GM in Toledo most plants closed down for the model year change over. The workers had to take their vacation at that time (2 weeks of it) and most Skilled Trades would work during the shutdown. If you where in an assembly plant and the product was in high demand and was not changing then your plant would stay running. At some point in time the contract must have changed and you no longer had to use your vacation and you where laid off and collected unemployment.
This has changed with the last contract and we now have to use our vacation time again and can no longer collect unemployment and sub pay during the summer shutdown.
Myself I'm good with that, why should the company pay us if you have vacation time? But as you can guess this is not going over very well in the plants and I had a discussion with about 10 other workers about it.
They feel the UAW sold them down the river but I asked if this was your Company would you pay your workers for a 2 week shutdown or have them use their vacation? Well luckily the buzzer sounded and I got out of the break room in one piece!
Just like a drug addict it will take some time to wean the work force off of these benefits that we have gotten during the Good Times and hopefully it will drive out the dead wood and let them go back to the State Welfare System and get off of the UAW Welfare System. Yep I said that!
While that aspect of the program is one major contrast to what Toyota did when they were forced to idle the plant because they weren't selling vehicles, it is still something that I would tip my hat to, although there should have never have been an option three in my opinion. Either be productive or don't collect a check.
This should have been cleared up by now, I don't know anyone that volunteered to sit in the plant, most did everything they could not to. We did have about 4 people fired at my plant for fraudulently (sp) filling out work papers. They would have someone sign their paperwork so it looked like they where going to the Red Cross. The Red Cross called and asked if they had any more people to send over and the numbers didn't match so they looked in to it and the pound scum was removed. And nope the UAW was not able to get them back!
Now, why exactly did the Feds do away with the program?
In order to receive any Government money some elected officials (good ole boys from Tenn and Texass) required the Jobs Bank to be terminated or NO MONEY.
Note that these are the same clowns that came out and said they couldn't intervene when the Banker's got their big ole bonuses. After all they had a contract that said they would get them.
Well we had a contract also that they tore up! But they sure talked up Toyota for "stepping up to the plate for there workers and Communities" sounds like someone got a big ole pay off to me!
If you have any more questions just ask.
Don
* This post was
edited 07/05/09 08:22am by Perrysburg Dodgeboy *
You'll never get it will you? Perhaps staring in the sun in Kuwait will continue to make you think that You are not hurting your fellow American by supporting them. My truck built in Michigan by Michigan workers for an American company that has thousands working right here in Michigan supporting our local economy and paying taxes here not over there!
Says the guy with the HONDA generator. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
Perrysburg Dodgeboy wrote: You have never heard of the Jobs Bank, you know the one that was all over the news. "Big Three auto workers getting paid 100% of their pay to sit in plants, News at 11" I Goggled it for you,n-USfficial&client=firefox">LINK
Nope, I missed that one. Evidently my mind was definitely on other things at that point in time. Thanks for the google.
Quote: Back when Damn-Liar owned us they cut every plants budget by like 30% and told the Plant Managers to cut the work force to achieve this (it's amazing what people toss in their trash, memos) so she did. They laid off enough people to make up the cut in the budget. This was not a volume related lay off they just wanted to put more money in Damn-Liar's coffers, so everyone went in the Jobs Bank.
Just so you know, I am not a fan of Daimler either, and believe that, while Chrysler would still be having problems today, that those problems would not be so severe had it not been for the merger.
Quote: Yep back when Dad was in the Tool Room @ GM in Toledo most plants closed down for the model year change over. The workers had to take their vacation at that time (2 weeks of it) and most Skilled Trades would work during the shutdown. If you where in an assembly plant and the product was in high demand and was not changing then your plant would stay running. At some point in time the contract must have changed and you no longer had to use your vacation and you where laid off and collected unemployment.
This has changed with the last contract and we now have to use our vacation time again and can no longer collect unemployment and sub pay during the summer shutdown.
Myself I'm good with that, why should the company pay us if you have vacation time? But as you can guess this is not going over very well in the plants and I had a discussion with about 10 other workers about it.
They feel the UAW sold them down the river but I asked if this was your Company would you pay your workers for a 2 week shutdown or have them use their vacation? Well luckily the buzzer sounded and I got out of the break room in one piece!
Just like a drug addict it will take some time to wean the work force off of these benefits that we have gotten during the Good Times and hopefully it will drive out the dead wood and let them go back to the State Welfare System and get off of the UAW Welfare System. Yep I said that!
My personal opinion is that if there is a planned, annual shutdown for two weeks every year, that it should not be vacation, and it should not make one eligible for unemployment. I would be of the opinion that since those two weeks are planned, every year, that salary is adjusted accordingly and the employees are paid during those two weeks. Sounds like we are close to being on the same sheet of music on this one.
Quote: This should have been cleared up by now, I don't know anyone that volunteered to sit in the plant, most did everything they could not to. We did have about 4 people fired at my plant for fraudulently (sp) filling out work papers. They would have someone sign their paperwork so it looked like they where going to the Red Cross. The Red Cross called and asked if they had any more people to send over and the numbers didn't match so they looked in to it and the pound scum was removed. And nope the UAW was not able to get them back!
I would've guessed as much.
Quote: In order to receive any Government money some elected officials (good ole boys from Tenn and Texass) required the Jobs Bank to be terminated or NO MONEY.
Note that these are the same clowns that came out and said they couldn't intervene when the Banker's got their big ole bonuses. After all they had a contract that said they would get them.
Well we had a contract also that they tore up! But they sure talked up Toyota for "stepping up to the plate for there workers and Communities" sounds like someone got a big ole pay off to me!
Just so we're clear, I read about it in the news, never heard about it from any elected official. Another difference sounds like the program was a corporate driven program, as opposed to a worker/union driven one, but that just means I have a bit more respect for the union, not the manufacturers.
It does sound like we also share a disdain for our elected officials, and probably the news media as well. If you ever get down toward Springfield, give me a shout ahead of time, maybe we can share a beverage and kick back for a few. Just promise not to laugh at my Neon. It is a Dodge, after all.
You'll never get it will you? Perhaps staring in the sun in Kuwait will continue to make you think that You are not hurting your fellow American by supporting them. My truck built in Michigan by Michigan workers for an American company that has thousands working right here in Michigan supporting our local economy and paying taxes here not over there!
Says the guy with the HONDA generator. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
When I bought the genny there were not any American counterparts that had the same unique design as the Honda. Had there been I would've bought American.
I try to buy from the USA as a standard, I've never been in a Walmart, I am a union retiree and support the right to organize, and I vote in every election, can you say the same? I find it hard to believe that the new standard for the US is 12 bucks an hour without bennys and the me me attitude that I see in our youth.
Sorry but that's just me.
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It must be time to go, the suns out and I've got a full tank of diesel and an empty charge card!
DocWard wrote: It does sound like we also share a disdain for our elected officials, and probably the news media as well. If you ever get down toward Springfield, give me a shout ahead of time, maybe we can share a beverage and kick back for a few. Just promise not to laugh at my Neon. It is a Dodge, after all.
Sounds like a plan and the same to you we are off US-25 about a mile or two from exit 2 on I-475. BTW the wife has a Neon also!
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