I would like to thank member 427435 for his information about ethanol.
The amount of misinformation regarding ethanol is amazing.
I think that many people will be surprised to know that ethanol will play a role as a substitute for fossil fuels. As will biodiesel, hybrid, hydrogen and other technologies on the horizon.
If you can, take a few minutes and learn about modern ethanol production, you will be surprised.
By the way, for those of you concerned about slightly poorer fuel economy from E-85, look around you on the freeway and notice how many even consider fuel economy at all. If you could some how get people to follow the posted speed limit, we all would be paying less for fuel.
2005 Safari Cheetah 36 PDD
Kymco People 250 on the back
I wonder if using Chevron ethanol gas contributed to the failure of my 2008 Workhorse GM engine? It started to lose power and then stalled. I filled up in San Diego and arrived in Las Vegas where the engine failed.
427435 wrote: There is at least as much miss-information and incorrect urban legends on ethanol as motor oil.
Where to start??? For one, I'm sure glad my small engines (3 garden tractors, one 72" commercial lawn mower, and a 70's vintage McCullough chain saw haven't heard the tales about not being able to use 10% ethanol because that's all that a person could buy in Minnesota for the last 15+ years. They're all running fine. My 1977 Mercruiser I/0 with a carburetor (remember them) and still hasn't melted a piston or ruined a valve despite running on E10 for the last 15+ years either
Then there's the statement that, "Slightly reduced mileage, higher food prices and more polution are about the only problems it will cause."
One hit out of three at-bats isn't bad if you're a baseball player (and maybe one correct out of three for internet statements), but except for about a 3% reduction in mpg, the other two are misconceptions that big oil would like you to believe. Corn is currently at half the price it was 2 years ago-----anyone seen a reduction in their food costs?? I didn't think so.
And ethanol is an oxygenator that reduces pollution----not increases it.
And then the statement that, "What is really depressing about the ethanol use is that is takes 4 gal. of water to refine 1 gal of ethanol and it takes approx. 2500 gal of water to grow enough corn to make one gallon of ethanol. This country is running out of water at a faster rate than oil, but it's still more popular to spent our tax $ on overpriced ethanol."
You may be running out of water in Arizona and California (despite the dams that us folks in the Midwest paid for years ago), but we're not out of water in Minnesota or the rest of the corn producing states. And to count the rainfall that raises corn is really, really, really, really, really reaching. Makes as much sense, however, as some of the other miss-statements about ethanol.
John M wrote:
Looks to me like ethanol was used long before lead to stop engine knock, but the GM / DuPont / Standard Oil partnership decided lead would make them more money even if it was poisonous.
At least John is correct.
Daveinet wrote: the worst part is that higher ethanol content will corrode your fuel injectors. The BP stations near my parents place have a bad habit putting extra ethanol in the gas, which has caused all kinds of problems. Their local dealer told them not to buy BP in that area. I have had problem s with my cars when traveling in that area.
I don't know where your parents live, but it sounds like some combination of bad gas or a handy excuse for repairing/replacing fuel injectors. I've used BP gas here in Minnesota (could be different refineries, I suppose) and have not had any problems. It also doesn't make sense to think that 15% ethanol will corrode injectors, but that 10% won't. My highest mileage fuel injected car is a 1994 with 229,000 miles and the only engine work has been 2 spark plug changes. Of course that is with E-10.
KOG wrote:
Ethanol actually raises octane.
At least you got that right.
KOG wrote: Even 10% ethanol can cause problems ranging from cold start difficulties, to driveability problems, burned pistons and valves, and lubrication breakdown. Corrosion of metal parts and deterioration of rubber components in fuel systems are quite common and well known problems.
Says who, documented where???? As I've posted, we've had E-10 for 15+ years in Minnesota------and it gets a lot colder here than in Georgia. I routinely drive my cars to at least 150,000 miles. I have yet to have any of these problems you list. I have also been a member of the Society of Automotive Engineers for 45 years and have never seen any technical paper or any other real evidence on any of these issues except maybe rubber on 30 year old cars. Guess it's a good thing my '67 Vette has steel fuel lines.
KOG wrote: And the real irony of all of this is that production of ethanol in the U.S. actually uses more petroleum than it replaces when all inputs of growing corn are considered. That includes fertilizer, herbicides, and pesticides as well as the fuel used for farming, distilling and hauling the ethanol around.
That's just bogus information again. There's little if any petroleum used in fertilizer, herbicides, pesticides or distilling. Whatever energy needed for producing these products come from natural gas or coal.
By the way, it takes 3-5 gallons of diesel to raise an acre of corn. That acre will produce anywhere from 125 bushels of corn all the way to 200+ bushels. Each bushel yields about 2.75 gallons of ethanol (plus a considerable amount of distillers grain for animal feed). At 150 bushels per acre, 5 gallons of diesel yields 400+ gallons of ethanol. Again, your statement is just more bogus information quietly spread first by big oil and then loudly by miss-informed people on the internet or over the parts or service counter.
On top of all of the above, the $ spent on ethanol stays here in the USA and doesn't end up in either the Arab world or the pockets of big oil (mostly owned by non-USA interests).
I'm sorry but facts and accurate information have no business here or on the Internet.
Probably why all the sheep in this thread that read a few scare emails about ethanol say what they say. Good luck trying to bring constructive information to light.
The particular dealer actually measured the ethanol content. It was at 20%. My dad also required a copy of the statement from the company that delivered the fuel (the station is required to produce it upon request) and verified the high ethanol content. You may want to read your owners manual. Most including mine state that using a higher content than 10% will void your warranty. Actually, they really don't like 10% but are forced to tolerate it. There is no dispute that ethanol is hygroscopic. Water is not good in the fuel system. Higher ethanol content just makes a bad problem worse.
Dave
FMCA F298817
'83 Revcon Prince 31' FWD
502 w/Howell/Edelbrock MPFI,Thorley's & Magnaflows,
KoniFSD,Class A built for gear heads My Revcon Revconeers Forum
If spending too much money got us into this mess, why is spending more money going to get us out.
Tom N wrote: Why increase the percentage of ethanol when ethanol is currently more expensive than oil?? Currently, I don't think any refiner is adding ethanol to their product.
-Tom
How is that possible? A couple of weeks ago I saw E-85 for the first time and it was 2.29 when regular gas at the same station was 2.56, which it averaged through out the city.
Because there is a $.50 per gallon Federal subsidy on ethanol used as a motorfuel, to keep the market price down. The subsidy is supposed to be balance by a tax on oil imports. Some of the corn belt states throw tax money into holding down the price, either with a subsidy or a reduction in motor fuel tax.
Daveinet wrote: The particular dealer actually measured the ethanol content. It was at 20%. My dad also required a copy of the statement from the company that delivered the fuel (the station is required to produce it upon request) and verified the high ethanol content. You may want to read your owners manual. Most including mine state that using a higher content than 10% will void your warranty. Actually, they really don't like 10% but are forced to tolerate it. There is no dispute that ethanol is hygroscopic. Water is not good in the fuel system. Higher ethanol content just makes a bad problem worse.
What state was this in? Using extra ethanol doesn't make a lot of sense for the refiner unless they had some really low octane fuel that they were trying to make usable (or they over-ordered ethanol).
Yes, ethanol is hygroscopic, but the first few % will take any moisture that's previously accumulated in the fuel tank into solution. It won't attract more moisture from outside because today's tanks are sealed. I actually like having E10 in fuel systems (both mine and gas station) because it keeps water in solution and prevents gas line freeze-up in the winter or getting a tank of water when the gas station tank runs low (that happened to me back in the 60's).
While a higher % of ethanol may affect seals and some plastics, it shouldn't erode a metal injector.
Mark
2000 Itasca Suncruiser 35U on a Ford chassis
2003 Ford Explorer toad with US Gear brakes,
ReadyBrute tow bar, and Demco base plate.
jkgray22 wrote: I wonder if using Chevron ethanol gas contributed to the failure of my 2008 Workhorse GM engine? It started to lose power and then stalled. I filled up in San Diego and arrived in Las Vegas where the engine failed.
No it didn't. There are many states where only E10 is available and have lots of GM engines running on it.
However, some service writer/warranty administrator may try and use ethanol as a scapegoat.
I wonder what would happen to the price of ethanol, and corn, if the government subsidy payments were removed and they had to compete on the open market? Right now I believe that about 45% of all farm subsidies goes to corn farmers. I guess that means that we are paying for the corn with our taxes anyway, so we may as well use it at the pumps.
I've run 10% ethanol for years and I haven't had any problems, but this is in fairly new vehicles. My older Classics with carbs would not run well on 10% ethanol. Of course I could have put larger jets in the carbs but it was also not doing well with some of the older carb rubber parts. Since I didn't see things changing for the better with older vehicles, I put the Classic cars into museums.
Looking in my Onan manual, and my Workhorse manual, they both just say to use a fuel with an 87 octane rating and do not use any fuel blends that have methanol instead of ethanol alcohol.
The only way ethanol can compete is to be forced into our gas tanks by self serving politicians, kowtowing to the corn lobby. For all you Pro ethanol supporters, what do you say if we make 100% gas available at the pump next to the E-10. You believe it's the best thing since sliced bread, I and many others believe it is bad for your car, RV, Motorcycle, etc... We can argue this till kingdom come and we can each come up with studies to support our arguments, but the bottom line is I don't have a CHOICE! and neither does most of the population. E-10 cannot compete even with subsidies and tax breaks, so then it had to be MANDATED! That is my biggest problem with it. Another question for the Pro-ethanol crowd, if ethanol is so good, why not import it from Brazil and the Caribbean at far cheaper prices. I think we both know the answer to that question! I cannot find pure gas within 100 miles of here. If anyone knows where some is please let me know. I will drive out of my way and pay extra for it. Let the market decide, let the consumers decide!
khager76248 wrote: The only way ethanol can compete is to be forced into our gas tanks by self serving politicians, kowtowing to the corn lobby. For all you Pro ethanol supporters, what do you say if we make 100% gas available at the pump next to the E-10. You believe it's the best thing since sliced bread, I and many others believe it is bad for your car, RV, Motorcycle, etc... We can argue this till kingdom come and we can each come up with studies to support our arguments, but the bottom line is I don't have a CHOICE! and neither does most of the population. E-10 cannot compete even with subsidies and tax breaks, so then it had to be MANDATED! That is my biggest problem with it. Another question for the Pro-ethanol crowd, if ethanol is so good, why not import it from Brazil and the Caribbean at far cheaper prices. I think we both know the answer to that question! I cannot find pure gas within 100 miles of here. If anyone knows where some is please let me know. I will drive out of my way and pay extra for it. Let the market decide, let the consumers decide!
There hasn't been 100% gas since the 40's. That's about when tetraethyl lead started to be added to bring octane up. Then there was MTBE. Both of these were polluting our air and our water sources. Ethanol does the same thing but doesn't pollute our environment.
It's good thing that government (and I'm not a proponent of big government usually) does mandate things like E10 because people like you would sacrifice the environment to save a few bucks at the gas pump.
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I didn't think so.
2008 Georgetown 315DS SE
