Fat Fox my comments were not directed at you but were on a general note and tone. I have read your posts through and I think you have one of the poorest built TC's out there. Sorry for your headache.
I have looked into custom design and build costs and they are not pennies more. There are real costs involved to improve TC's as the desire to completely eliminate wood in every place including the fru fru paneling will require much higher costing materials. It will however yield a far superior product that would laugh at water. I also feel that the TC should work without freezing in
-20*F weather. Something almost impossible without major modifications to the current stuff on the market.
Rather than hope that water will not get in within the warranty period and then forcing the buyer to pony up with big $$$$ to fix it when it does leak and there is delamination and wood rot, I think building with water proof materials removes the damage potential so if it were to leak then it is no big deal. I also see water leaks as the #! problem so redesigning for much better water diversion is step #1. RV's today do little in either area.
I have seen a lot of bad stuff with the AF product. Sure glad mine came from the factory next door to AF. Seems like Eagle Cap are much better, but far from perfect.
Allen
2005 Ford F-350 CC Dually 6.0L Diesel 4x4 King Ranch loaded, Supersprings, Coolant filter, Oilguard bypass filter.
AllenF wrote: Fat Fox my comments were not directed at you.
I don't think they were either.
AllenF wrote: I have read your posts through and I think you have one of the poorest built TC's out there.
I can't make that claim because I have no way to prove it. But anecdotal evidence would suggest it is true - and it sure as hell feels like it! However, it is certainly easy to prove it was designed and built poorly and the company has been negligent. (A word I do not use unless it is an apt description)
AllenF wrote: I have looked into custom design and build costs and they are not pennies more. There are real costs involved to improve TC's as the desire to completely eliminate wood in every place including the fru fru paneling will require much higher costing materials.
I'm not advocating custom built campers. Economies of scale and specialization in manufacturing are critical factors in cost containment. It would be tough for you to negotiate a good price on materials if you're only doing a one-time minimum order from a retail outlet and not buying a train load of it from a sales agent you've worked with for 10 years.
Nonetheless,
Materials:
Good design can allow the use of less expensive materials and many of the material improvement suggestions made by (truly innovative!) camper owners in this forum do not necessarily involve the entire camper - just key areas. Even if AF had kept the exact same materials - as inappropriate as some of them are - and made some simple design modifications as well as significantly improved quality, this camper would not be rotting right now.
Further, sometimes the cost of using a more expensive material can be more than made up for by allowing for less expensive processing, improved scrap rates and faster through-put times. If this is coupled with increased training, including all employees in continuous improvement programs and concurrent engineering as a matter of course the costs can go lower still.
BTW: What's with the "fu fu panels"? I like the general style and color coordination in my camper - Dogonit, I like my fu fu! I just don't like finding out it is little more than thick mascara on a corpse.
Costs:
Any costs associated with improving campers would be more than made up for in lowered Cost Of Quality. A large portion of my career has been devoted to improving the quality and efficiency of factories. I've taught classes in both Demand Flow Technology and Lean Manufacturing. In 20 years I have yet to see any business improve quality, efficiency and designs and use more appropriate materials and end up with a product so expensive the target market can no longer afford it. If a suggested improvement makes the product so expensive the target market can no longer afford it, then it isn't and improvement. The whole idea is to be less expensive with higher quality.
If they had made continuous improvement a part of their strategy for the past 10 years, if they had logged and studied returns and failing units from their own stock as well as other camper manufacturers, if they had also studied the more successful designs that didn't have the problems, none of this would have happened. This is not complicated stuff, and it is done as a matter of course in other industries. But it's not being done here. It may be because they have not learned these new techniques (many of these manufacturers are based in very small towns in isolated areas) or perhaps they don't understand them such and are suspicious (common) or maybe they are simply not motivated because they have survived thus far by not changing a thing.
AllenF wrote: I also feel that the TC should work without freezing in
-20*F weather. Something almost impossible without major modifications to the current stuff on the market.
If storing in cold weather, I don't think it is at all unreasonable to require owners to perform winterizing tasks.
In terms of a camper not freezing in -20 weather while using it: The current design of my AF (circulation of some heated around the tanks) is actually rather innovative and COULD work quite well. The problem is they did a horrible job implementing the design and an even worse job manufacturing it. The insulation around the tank is spotty, is the wrong type and only an inch thick (except where compress where it is 1/8"). There is no insulation whatsoever in key areas including the entire driver's side under the sink where all the plumbing resides. Insulation is very cheap - and quite useful in keeping things from freezing up.
This is old-school industry stuck in a rut producing a product using process controls that have changed relatively little in the past 30 years. Updating their systems is long overdue. Most people never call them on it because most people: A) Don't have a venue to do so; B) don't have the background or the vocabulary to accurately describe or asses the problems; C) don't care all that much or; D) simply don't want to stir up any potential controversy and have to defend their claims.
Seymour Wrought
Rebuilding my rotting 03 Arctic Fox 1150 that was made of cardboard, tape & scraps of garbage.
01 F350 dually 4X4
Rancho 9000, Air bags, Roadmaster sway bar
Torklift/Fastguns, Lance cabover struts, (un)Happi jacks, Homemade jack stabilizers
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