On pre fiberglass tub campers the area around the sliding cab window was not glued or laminated as Outfitter loosely refers to there press and shop vac method of lamination. Its glued at the radius and pinned in by the trim around the sides , glued under the cab over and wraped around the outside radius at the nose of the cab over ,not much atachment at the nose radius or the vertical one foot that has the Outfitter logo on it , its all mushy up there . I`d be suprised if the fiberglass tub models are any diffrent. the area your talking about on mine looked and felt the worst when it was on the jacks , not a good way to build in my opinion .
My experience was love- hate- remorce -sell , without flaming Outfitter publicly . Bob is great , has poor quality control sometimes , Brian is not , after he told me in a little fit on the phone one day to `quit picking at` my camper I just payed 23000.00 for I stopped talking to him .Bob worked with me the hole time I owned it , even sent me a check for my labor to fix the long list of problems that I had at first, didnt cover 5.00 per hr of my labor but was nice .
I took pictures of every problem I had , and still have them , mostly minor to moderate . I had my camper way appart at times and got a good look at their methods of building , on my camper it was a sick mess in alot of areas . I `m sure it was not a typical cammper from them .
There are problem areas of construction that I could not ultimatly live with or sleep at night not knowing what was going to fail next so I fixed it and sold it with Bob help , for a loss of about 9000.00
The largest problems were
roof to heavy , crank system failed many times , Bob always said he was going to make mine a test case for eletric lift , but for two years I had a camper that I could hardly lift , and didnt know when it would fail next , I talkedto HECO the co. that makes it and they said it was way overloaded , but Bob always sent me parts to patch it back together
went out one day and the bottom of the basement - plywood at truck bed - was droping out . Its a alum frame with luon top and thin ply on the outside . it was dropped down in spots one inch . No water damage , just bad build , Bob came and picked it up and brought it back a few monthes later
the tub , plywood box , or on freedom 49`s fiberglass , was ripping of the upper camper from day one , there was a gap at time I could get my little finger into . Tryed many fixes with Bobs help . Always came loose again .Bad design , having a ledge there , to much stress in that area. I dont know if the fiberglass tub solved it , I hope so.
I sold and took my lumps , but when ever I posted about a problem I was suspect of being a counter ensurgent spy from anouther pop up co . Outfitter owners as a group are over sensitive and parinoid onthis fourm , (not directed at any one in particular)
Previous to owning the Outfitter I had a Northstar tc800,and after I have a Northstar tc1000 and a Okanagan db96 , no spy just someone who has learned lifes lessons
Quote: Outfitter owners as a group are over sensitive and parinoid onthis fourm , (not directed at any one in particular)
....sorry bud, but I think that that statement is complete BS! Saying "as a group" or "anyone in particular" doesn't cover up the true meaning of that statement you made.
Looking back over the "issues" and "suggestions" made by other Outfitter owners, I can only detect a handful of responses that could be construed as "sensitive". In fact the vast majority of responses have been balanced, well-intended and extremely helpful!
So, let's get back on track here and try and help the OP with some useful data and potential fix(es).
I think your responce somwhat suports my observation . I was just suporting freedoms49`s frustration of being acused of having a motive other than the condition of his valued property.
I think if you remember back a while- a few years you pm ed me and asked for pictures of the bottom droped out of my camper and asked if you could post them , I asked that you didn`t , as I didn`t want to cause Bob problems , mainly because anything negitive ever said about Outfitter here turns into a circling of all the outfitter wagons and an ensuing brand war
As I said I think the filon is loose because thats how they build them , although as I said also I think thats a bad design
Im sure there are a majority of Outfitter owners who have good product produced by a company I am also sure can and will survive. But that said I`ve seen several here like me that have had their original dream of that camper turn bad , loose money and get treated as troublemaking part time employes of brand x .
Ive never tryed to cause Outfitter any problems . And if a company cant survive the negitive imput it brings to itself because of brief holes in their own quality , then maybe they should`nt
I dont count Outfitter as a company that wont survive,
but I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the hole thing
Sometimes moisture from condensation- can accumulate in the bottom of the cab over- could you install a couple weep hole's to vent the area?? Hallmark has done this with some success
Venting might be a good idea. When I first noticed the problem, I did wonder if water had accumulated in the area. Any idea where the vent holes should be located? I don't think I could come up from the bottom - I assume there would be a structural member there.
I am in the same boat with Freedom and Okan. I have had a number of issues with my Apex 8. Many were staring at me in the face when I went to pick my camper up. Several options were not installed (inverter, extra duplex, roof rack etc.) My converter was a problem from day one and I ended up doing the replacement with parts that Outfitter supplied, after they replaced the first one. They came and picked up my camper to fix the converter, leaky plumbing, a bathroom door that was a basket case and the bumper that the door sits on was screwed into the luan and no backing. When I went to pick the camper up after the fixes...guess what? Still had leaky plumbing and a converter that didn't convert.
I still really like the camper, I just expect that when you pay a bit of change for a new product that the thing will be built and preform correctly. I thought that I was gifted the rare sub par Outfitter. I still have some issues with my camper, but they are mostly maintenance issues that Outfitter would have no control over. But, the wall paper is wrinkling and bubbling everywhere it made contact with caulking(like around the counter tops) I am careful about excess moisture while storing.
During my frustration a couple of years ago. An over faithful Outfitter owner called and told Outfitter about my issues. Make no mistake I am a fan of Outfitter, but there are members of this board that think Outfitter does no wrong...it is obvious in their responses. There are also members who always try to get a jab in at Hallmarks gain. You guessed it I am a spy
I think Freedom owes it to himself to overcome the bad taste and try to get some more support from Bob. I think they are very reasonable folks who, like many of us, don't like to be called out. But, even after I publicly voiced my frustration they offered support.
Freedom 49 wrote: Venting might be a good idea. When I first noticed the problem, I did wonder if water had accumulated in the area. Any idea where the vent holes should be located? I don't think I could come up from the bottom - I assume there would be a structural member there.
Maybe it should be vented to the inside ...
I will take a couple photo's for you- I think you can vent the outside
I will not go into if a camper's manufacturer had designed and/or built it's unit perfectly or even acceptable for 20+ years of actual usage in all climates and all times of the year. RV's vary so greatly from OMG to WOW, that's very good. I'd rather talk about the moisture collection/rot problems, mostly in the cabover areas that plague virtually all cabover type RV's and some other areas and a few ways of helping to resolve the problem.
Rain drops/moisture being driver at highway speeds often finds tiny microscopic compromises in about any RV units sealed joints and therefore finds it's way inside in small to medium quantities over time. RV's age and so does their caulking and sealing. Couple this with the vast ambient temperature variations and inside to outside temperature variations which creates normal condensation collecting on the warmer side of a trapped air location. Single pane windows are horrible for lower condensation collection and often the water drips constantly off them especially in the cabover area. This is really enhanced by the continous hours of body heated exhaled breath high moisture content from sleeping in the cabover and/or cooking. Moisture carrying heated air rises and stays in the cabover area since it's a semi-closed or air flow restrition area near the units roof. Trapped moisture/water will nearly always mold and/or start the dry rotting process in any material subject to dry rotting. Aluminum does not dry rot but it transfers thermal's which enhances condensation collection. That means the aluminum frame will remain intact but what's attached to the aluminum (wood, paneling, fabric, etc) will rot from the stagnant water/moisture. Mold smell/fumes are not wise to be inhaled. Finding all the sources and eliminating them is a real toughy and often means tearing into the RV's structure.
Will wall venting anywhere desireable help? Sure, somewhat but it also lets in the cold convection air trapped in the structure's frame which compromises the reason for the installed insulation's effect. Cracking a roof vent about 1/4" to 1/2" at night in the cabover etc will do more as it allows the heated breath moisture to escape but that's only part of a solution. There are several parameters and issues to this solution however. If the RV is tightly sealed, air flow out the cracked vent will be very minimal to none and this reduces it's effectivness. Outside wind velocity and direction makes huge differences also. That might change daily depending on location! The golden rule is that you cannot remove air from a room unless you allow air in to replace it. Simply, you can't pressurize a room or depressurize a room, atmospheric pressure rules! Same with an RV. That's why homes have shortened doors with gaps at the bottom for air flow escape if the room doesn't have a cold air return within.
The best way to minimize condensation collection especially in RV's is to create constant moving air in the cabover and especially to the outside walls as much as possible. A simple small 4" dia or larger 12V DC fan such as found on a computer works great. Needs an on/off switch. On all night when needed and off during the day unless needed as doors/windows etc can be opened. Venting of the moisture laden air out thru the roof vent and replacing with fresh cool air from a lower small vent/lower window cracked open is important. A slow constant on going process while you sleep. Humidity is relative to the ambient air temperature. Cold air at 50% relative humidity becomes very dry air when it's heated all the way down to 10% often. Therefore, it can and will absorb so much of the moisture in the RV and then is vented out the roof. It works but it takes all 3 steps to be truely effective. How much venting varies upon how the RV is designed and built, how many occupants are inside, if storm/dual pane windows are used, and many other factors. Trial and error is the best way to find and narrow down what works best on virtually all RV's. You'll be so glad you did it!
2004 Chev 2500HD D/A crew cab LB 4X4, Air Bags & upgraded to 3500HD
Lance 990 Legend Camper 11' 4" with my 2' X 7' rear porch with box
29 ft Carri-lite 5th wheel - specially built
36 ft Carriage 5'er (took a tree falling)
Lance 915 Camper (just sold)
I have to say that I subscribe to Travelnutz's thesis on RV and enclosed RV-like structures, that accommodate H2O expelling people.
In our Caribou (a much smaller and lighter version of the Apex, withour basement or heavy cabover), I have noticed condensation on the inside vinylized wallpaper surface of the camper under any conditions where the relative humidity exceeds about 70% RH (we have a constant weather measuring system that gives us relative humidity both inside and outside the camper at all times). I believe that this is not a condition exclusive of our camper, but generally found in perhaps most campers on the market. As Travelnitz notes, running a source of heat inside the camper (like a furnace or some convective heat source NOT expelling H2O water vapor) will nearly instantly adjust the relative humidity of the air mass inside, and setting up an expel system to vent inside camper air to outside, to be replaced by a new air mass, is the way to cycle any humidity out of the RV. I think that our discovery of humidity and condensation inside our unit was the impetus for me to run a convective heater in the camper nearly full time (whether camping or not).
As for the inside pocketed radius created by the curved Filon found just over the sliding cabover window:
I always had a bad feeling about this kind of large chamber in an RV with a cabover (like ours for example). So, I remedied this by doing the following: drilling holes in the radiused Filon (in the prescribed Crane Composites drill recommendations) at strategic locations, rigging up a suction device using a vacuum, tubes and tapered needle valve and rubber sleeve (to insert into the drilled hole on one side of the camper), and ran the vacuum for 20 minutes on a day where outside relative humidity was under 40% (to extract any condensed moisture). Then, I injected a limited expanding non-hazardous propellant containing insulating foam into the cavity (carefully ! You can burst the Filon and destroy the camper if this is not done properly), and left to cure for several days (testing with a mild vacuum for curing degree). I then patched the injection/vacuum holes with a marine epoxy and UV coating, and painted. This yields: no cavity where moisture/condensation can accumulate; a far stronger structure, where Filon flexing or cracking is minimized to just about zero, and additional insulation factor under the bed area.
Insulating the cavity inside aluminum structural tubing:
As Travelnutz writes, moisture and condensation WILL eventually happen inside even structural metal framing over time, even a composite/bonded wall system. So, If I was going to build a camper with aluminum framing, I'd inject a fire-retardant expanding foam inside each metal frame member after the frame was welded. This would effectively block any moisture from ever finding it's way into the metal frame tube, and, would capture any sheet-metal screws that must be used as frame fasteners (think about how many sheet metal screws are inserted into the metal frame of every camper made, thereby creating a potential water-balloon of the screws are not SEALED before insertion from the exterior of camper!).
Thermal bridging:
I have not ever seen a truck camper designed where thermal bridging is not prevalent throughout the unit (Northern-Lite is getting close to solving this, but more design work needs to be done to seal basement from external ports from conduit penetrating walls, etc).
Cheers,
Silver-
* This post was
edited 11/05/09 12:00pm by silversand *
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