Kereams, I'm not sure how to answer that question.
I've always run on two principles:
1. Use the air bags (or extra springs, etc) to handle the tow vehicle load before hooking up the trailer.
2. Use the weight-transfer bars to mitigate what the hitch weight does to me when towing a trailer.
I never want to use the weight-transfer bars to handle any additional load in the bed of my truck. The weight-transfer principle is designed only to accommodate tongue weight, not for load in the bed of the tow vehicle.
Too much stress can be placed on the hitch, trailer frame, etc. if the weight-transfer system is used to accommodate the tow vehicle load too.
I have been watching this thread with interest, as I have a Pro Series SC which I purchased in April, 2008. I have never been totally satisfied with the set up in that I could never get my van level. Originally, I was towing with a 1995 Chevy G20 Conversion Van, and while handling and sway were fine, I could not get the rear end sag out without adding air to my air bags. I chalked it up to the rear springs in the van being on the soft side, and the van being loaded to near full capacity.
Recently, I got a Ford E350 Super Duty Van with the Powerstroke diesel. The rear springs in this truck ought to be plenty stiff, and I am only loading it to about 75% of it's rated capacity ....
To make a long story short, I have tried tilting the head all the way back and going to a 2" rise ball ( I have a 6" frame also), but can't seem to do any better than an 1.5 inch sag in the rear, and a 3/8 inch rise in the front. We just towed 3500 miles to Florida and back, and it handled perfectly, and since the van looks a little rear end high when it is unloaded, the uneven sag is not too noticeable (except to me).
I did have a "whoops" however .... I got lazy backing into a site, and did not stop to remove the bars before backing into a tight spot. I turned too sharp, and one of the bars popped out. I think cracked the casting as by the time I got home it looked like this:
I think the only option is to purchase a new ball mount, or should I be looking at different system?
I seems like I have the same ball mount as Mike - the patent numbers cast into the side, and PN 112/50 (or maybe 112750) cast into the mount under the ball. The "holes" where the trunnions mount measure about 1-3/8" at the bottom and taper a bit out toward the top. The studs on the trunnions measure about 1-1/8 at the base and taper down to about 1" at the tip. They are about 3/4" long. I do not appear to be in the small trunnion situation ....
The trunnion and bar assembly looks just like the ones in the installation manual, with a gusset or reinforcement on the top as shown in the drawings. This made sense to me, as the force when hooked up, should be mostly on the top of the trunnion. The trunnion/bar assemble is not 90 degrees - as positioned as shown in the drawings, the bar would point slightly upward.
I tried flipping the bars over (with the reinforcement downward - opposite from what is show in the drawings) and it did not see to have any effect on my measurements, although to be fair, the street in front of my house is not exactly level - there is some slope sideways toward the curve.
Putting a straight edge along the bar shows just under 1/8" deflection.
A local dealer has a spare ball mount in stock, so I think I will just get it, and run things like they are, but it bugs me that I can't really figure it out, and can't seem to do anything to get more weight on the front axle. There appears to be lots of force being applied to the trunnion/ball mount joint - you can see the wear in the pictures. Should the trunnions be lubricated? The instructions are silent on lubrication......
Anybody have any thoughts or comments?
Bill & Kate - Stone Harbor, NJ
w/ Sunny (parti poodle) & Molson (goldendoodle)
2005 Ford/Quigley 4x4 E-350 Chateau Super Duty Van with 6.0L PSD ("Moby")
2012 Outback Super Light 277RL - 10th Anniversary Edition ("Salty Dog House II")
I have a 2008 Tundra Double Cab with the 5.7L. I tow a Desert Fox 21SW toy hauler. We are at about 7300lbs trailer weight when heading out to camp. I'm not exactly sure on the tongue weight but I would guess it's around 900lbs or so as we have the generator, two batteries and 15g of propane.
I do not have the same issue as you do. My angle is considerably less steep than yours. Matter-of-fact by ribbed washers are all the way to the right flush with the end of the ribbs, whereas you can not see any ribs on the right side of the washer but yet the washer is not overhanging any of the ribs.
This is the hitch I have, which is the newer version:
http://www.etrailer.com/pc-wdrsc~66156.htm
When I set mine up my ball height was exactly 1" above the level trailer ball-socket height. When I load up the bars my truck comes exactly back to level in the front. In order to load the bars into the hangers I have to lift the truck/trailer up with my electric tongue jack quite a ways in order to unload the bars enough to get them in the hangers. If memory serves me correctly I was at about 4.5" of height difference between the bars and pad hangers. I use 10psi (unloaded, before hooking up)in my air bags just to keep them inflated enough to not be damaged.
In the directions for mine it clearly states that the sockets of the trunions should be lubricated with grease. I use Mobile1 full synthetic red grease on them and my ball. My ball is a standard height ball. Reese FAQ for lube
Looking at your angle, you must REALLY have to lift up to get those trunions into the hangers? What is your measurement delta between the bottom of the trunion and the pad hanger when you align the bars per the directions to take that measurement? Lastly, what was the measurement from the center of the ball to the center of your pads? If it slipped out it must be too far. Mine is at the recommended distance and I can turn full lock without the tips of the trunions coming anywhere near popping out.
* This post was
edited 03/08/10 09:05pm by kereams *
Interesting ..... The instructions to your model hitch (I downloaded them from the Reese site) are completely different the the ones I have for my older model ... mine have no reference to the trunnion bar/friction pad distance, nor to any type of lubrication. The new directions make a lot more sense. I will play around a bit and see what kind of measurements I get and report back ....
I will type more tonight but I have some things for you to think thru before you buy the exact same hitch head of the vintage you have now. You may be able to upgrade to the newer head and trunnion lugs that is sold on the new Reese SC hitch.
Do you have any side pics of your hitch on the TT frame?
What is the square dimension of the WD bars as they insert into the trunnion lug end?
What size WD bars are they?
And do you know your loaded tongue weight?
Do you have before and after TV fender heights when hitched and with WD engaged?
Here is the quick answer with more to follow as I’m short on time right now. Rather then buying the same head you have now, buy the new head that is sold for the Reese SC hitch. This will require the new head and new trunnion ends. Your WD issue on the truck is steming from the angle the trunnion sockets are cast into the hitch head and your 6” frame. The new HP hitch head does not have this same issue and can allow for more WD transfer with your 6" frame setup.
Be back later
John
John & Cindy
2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10
CC, SB, Lariat & FX4 package
21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR
Ford Tow Command
1,700# Reese HP hitch & HP Dual Cam
2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver
2004 Sunline Solaris T310SR
(I wish we were camping!)
I did have a "whoops" however .... I got lazy backing into a site, and did not stop to remove the bars before backing into a tight spot. I turned too sharp, and one of the bars popped out. I think cracked the casting as by the time I got home it looked like this:
Holy smokes! I will tuck this away for future reference
When I did talk to Reese tech support recently I asked about trunnion lug lubrication. They told me simply a drop of 80/90 wt. oil on the top front and bottom back lugs was sufficient.
Mike
* This post was
edited 03/09/10 07:34am by mikefos *
Mike, Kim, and Pepper (Min Pin security)
2012 Jayco Super Lite 308RETS
2010 Chevy 2500HD, Duramax/Allison, 2WD, Long Bed, Crew Cab, Duraflaps, AMP Bedstep
Equal-i-zer 1400/14K Hitch
Kereams - the distance from the ball to the bracket is 25-1/2 inches, which seems to be in an acceptable range. The bar that fell out was under more of a twisting force, and the trunnion popped out of the ball mount rather than the tips of the bar coming out of the bracket. In fact, the trunnion pictured was on the inside of the turn, the one on the outside did almost, but not quite slip out. That was a dumb move on my part, and in no way a fault of the hitch. I took the measurement as instructed in the instructions for your newer version and there is no height difference from the bars and the pad hangers - they are just about the same.
JBarca - when I went to take a picture of the set up today, I thought I found the problem - the bracket on the passenger side was set a hole lower than the one on the driver's side. I had obviously not checked both sides carefully - unfortunately, this is the way the dealer set it up. I was conviced that was the problem, and moved the bracket, but alas - there was no difference. Please note that these pictures were taken with the bracket in the wrong hole, and with the bars "upside down" just to try it. My bars are 1-1/4" square. I was told they were the 1100 lb bars by the dealer, but don't know how to ID them as they are not marked. The dealer said he measured the tongue weight when the trailer was empty at 850 lbs, but I do not know what it is now. I will bring a load cell home from work tomorrow to check it. I am guessing it could be close to 1000 lbs. The most recent measurements (with the bracket in the correct position were taken on the street in front of my house which is almost dead level front to back, but has a slight pitch toward the passenger side:
LR was 39-1/2" now 37-1/2" diff -2"
RR was 39" now 37-1/2" diff -1-1/2
LF was 39-3/4" now 40-1/2" diff +3/4
RF was 40" now 39-7/8" diff -1/8
It isn't too bad, but it seems like I should be able to get it to settle even.
Since I have to get a new ball mount, I guess I should just go for the newer style with new trunnions - assuming everything else fits ....
cathcartww wrote: I took the measurement as instructed in the instructions for your newer version and there is no height difference from the bars and the pad hangers - they are just about the same.
If that is the case then there is no spring pressure on the trunions and they will not transfer load to the front end.
I agree that is the problem - that is why I took JBarca's advice, and went to the high rise ball - by dropping the ball mount a hole, and using a 2" rise ball, I was able to get much more tension on the bars, but still apparently not enough ... I think JBarca is right, and your newer design ball mount and trunnions are a different design as to what I have (even though they look similar). There is still the chance that I have a lot more tongue weight than I think I have - I will check that tomorrow ...
Well I did some digging for you and seeing your pics and new info , here are some comments. You really gave us a lot to work with. Key is sorting it out…. I’m just stating an opinion looking some 575 miles away thru a computer screen… So you tell me where I go wrong here. (I looked up my house to Stone Harbor, it is 575m away or I would come over and help… Are you right on the coast? WOW) OK, so here goes.
cathcartww wrote: John -
I have been watching this thread with interest, as I have a Pro Series SC which I purchased in April, 2008. I have never been totally satisfied with the set up in that I could never get my van level . Originally, I was towing with a 1995 Chevy G20 Conversion Van, and while handling and sway were fine, I could not get the rear end sag out without adding air to my air bags. I chalked it up to the rear springs in the van being on the soft side, and the van being loaded to near full capacity.
Recently, I got a Ford E350 Super Duty Van with the Powerstroke diesel. The rear springs in this truck ought to be plenty stiff, and I am only loading it to about 75% of it's rated capacity ....
I highlighted 2 things that stuck out to me. I finding puzzle pieces of your setup that I think I can help with. Let’s go on some more.
cathcartww wrote: To make a long story short, I have tried tilting the head all the way back and going to a 2" rise ball ( I have a 6" frame also), but can't seem to do any better than an 1.5 inch sag in the rear, and a 3/8 inch rise in the front. We just towed 3500 miles to Florida and back, and it handled perfectly, and since the van looks a little rear end high when it is unloaded, the uneven sag is not too noticeable (except to me).
I picked up on that you said you have a 6” wide frame. And your fender heights. More on this in a moment.
cathcartww wrote:
I think the only option is to purchase a new ball mount, or should I be looking at different system?
I seems like I have the same ball mount as Mike - the patent numbers cast into the side, and PN 112/50 (or maybe 112750) cast into the mount under the ball. The "holes" where the trunnions mount measure about 1-3/8" at the bottom and taper a bit out toward the top. The studs on the trunnions measure about 1-1/8 at the base and taper down to about 1" at the tip. They are about 3/4" long. I do not appear to be in the small trunnion situation ....
Now that we have some pics of your total hitch and some measurements, lets look at a few things.
cathcartww wrote:
I tried flipping the bars over (with the reinforcement downward - opposite from what is show in the drawings) and it did not see to have any effect on my measurements, although to be fair, the street in front of my house is not exactly level - there is some slope sideways toward the curve.
Putting a straight edge along the bar shows just under 1/8" deflection.
A local dealer has a spare ball mount in stock, so I think I will just get it, and run things like they are, but it bugs me that I can't really figure it out, and can't seem to do anything to get more weight on the front axle. There appears to be lots of force being applied to the trunnion/ball mount joint - you can see the wear in the pictures. Should the trunnions be lubricated? The instructions are silent on lubrication......
Here is something that keeps sticking out between Mikes post and now yours. Flipping the WD bar over does not seem to change the WD much. It is hard to tell from the pics but here goes. I “think” (guesstimate) that the trunnion lugs that are with the original SC hitch, do not have much if any angle between the trunnion lugs and the WD bar. And if that is the case, flipping then over is not going to change the WD very much. Here see this pic. of yours.
It is either 90 degrees between the WD bar and trunnion lugs or maybe only 89 degress by the looks of it. In all the Reese pic I see of that hitch, it shows up looking very square to the end.
And look at Mikes. His shows the same thing.
Also note in Mike pic that the trunnion sockets center line in the hitch head and the center line thru the tow ball are at a good angle to each other.
Now look at some of my WD bars that use Reese PN 58098 WD bar trunnion lug end and Reese 58097 trunnion lug end. The center of the trunnion lugs is about 82 degrees to the center of the WD bar.
Now why I bring this up is 3 fold
1.If it the WD bar center is almost square to the center of the trunnion lugs, then flipping the WD bar is not going to have that much affect in WD. If you flip a WD bar with 8 degrees angle like mine that is a lot and will almost totally unload the WD effect.
2. I have a 2009 Reese catalog here. The 2010 catalog on the Reese web site no longer has very much WD hitches in it….yet they sell them. Good company, just the web site has changed so much every year of things coming and going it is hard to keep track of… OK back on track.
The newer generation Reese SC hitch uses hitch head 58167. That also happens to the HP trunnion bar head that I have with the DC. And that hitch head uses trunnion lugs pn 58098 for the 600 and 800# WD bars that are 1 1/8” square going into the trunnion lug. They have trunnion lug 58097 for the 1,200#, 1,500# WD bars which is 1 3/8" square going into the trunnion lug . So Reese combined parts between the SC series and the HP WD trunion bar hitch used with the DC. It woudl be great to actaulyl see one of the new SC hitched on a side view to see the trunion socket anlge I'm refering to. Maybe we can get some one to post that has one.
And see here how those 82 degree trunnion lugs fit the 58167 head.
See here the 58167 on the right and yours (Mikes) on the left
The fit of the WD bar in the head is different and allows more WD bar tension due to the setup without so much head tilt.
3. Originally I thought you might be able to upgrade the trunnion lugs and use then in the new 58167 head. But 1 snafu.
Bill you said you measured 1 1/4” square WD bars on what you think are 1,100# WD bars. Well recheck that 1 1/4” as if that is right without machined a up adapter the WD bars you have are not going to fit in the new head style WD bar trunnion lugs. The 1 1/8” is too small and the 1 3/8” is too big.
There is 1 last hope of using that new 58167 head with your existing WD bars. Call Reese Tech service. Tell them your situation and ask them if you can use the 58167 head with you smaller trunnion lug WD bars. Then may fit and “might” lock up sooner, OR maybe not as they sockets are bigger. Unless I had one here to try I can’t tell. If Reese says it is OK, they that is an option. If the WD bar will lock up in the 58167 sooner then it will in your existing head it will allow more WD effect. Ideal is to take your WD bar to a dealer and try it. Just stick the WD bar in and look at the angle of lock up and compare to your old head. If you are not gaining any lock up angle, well then it won’t matter which head you use.
The lube in the trunnion sockets. Yes they need lube. I use grease like I do on the tow ball. I use the Reese on the ball white grease lube. Or you can use gear oil like Mike was told. But they do need lube or else they will wear heavy over time.
cathcartww wrote:
JBarca - when I went to take a picture of the set up today, I thought I found the problem - the bracket on the passenger side was set a hole lower than the one on the driver's side. I had obviously not checked both sides carefully - unfortunately, this is the way the dealer set it up. I was conviced that was the problem, and moved the bracket, but alas - there was no difference. Please note that these pictures were taken with the bracket in the wrong hole, and with the bars "upside down" just to try it. My bars are 1-1/4" square. I was told they were the 1100 lb bars by the dealer, but don't know how to ID them as they are not marked. The dealer said he measured the tongue weight when the trailer was empty at 850 lbs, but I do not know what it is now. I will bring a load cell home from work tomorrow to check it. I am guessing it could be close to 1000 lbs. The most recent measurements (with the bracket in the correct position were taken on the street in front of my house which is almost dead level front to back, but has a slight pitch toward the passenger side:
LR was 39-1/2" now 37-1/2" diff -2"
RR was 39" now 37-1/2" diff -1-1/2
LF was 39-3/4" now 40-1/2" diff +3/4
RF was 40" now 39-7/8" diff -1/8
It isn't too bad, but it seems like I should be able to get it to settle even.
Next thing. You stated earlier you had a 6” wide A frame. Can you check and verify that? If it is, then for sure there is an optical illusion going on. The pic of your A frame does not look like other 6” frames. More like a 5”. Here is why.
See here on you’re A frame. The distance from the bottom of the ball coupler to the bottom of the frame looks about 1”. And you have extra holes to adjust the WD pads up.
Look at Mikes. The distance from the bottom of the ball coupler to the bottom of the frame is greater and he has no holes showing that he can adjust his WD pads. His is a 6” frame
He is my 6” frame. Look at the distance at the ball coupler.
And look at this one on my old TT. This is a 5” frame.
In closing I see these things.
1. You keep mentioning level out the TV, including your new 3/4 ton van. Are you thinking ideal WD on your Ford the truck needs equal squat or must be level? When the front end is returned to unhitched weight, that is the optimum on Fords for WD. The rear will have some drop. Getting the rear and front to drop equal means you are over compressing the front end. That is not the ideal for Ford setup. And with the hitch you have, there needs to a lot more WD to ever get the front of the truck to go below unhitched. I agree by your fender height a little more WD could help. The back may then be 1” to 1 1/2 down. The 2” in the LR seems like much. A truck scale will tell a lot.
2. You mentioned weighing the tongue. Yes please do. It might fool you. I know mine use to until I got a Sherline tongue scale. Man stuff adds up…. The WD bar sizing, that one Reese might be able to help if there is no sticker. The normal 800# WD bars are generally 1 1/8 square at the ends but in the SC hitch they may be changing the temper of the steel to get different ratings.
A heads up. I zoomed in and looked at your Jay Feather A frame. That “looks” like one of there lighter weight A frame. Sort of like this
Does you’re A frame look like that vintage Jay Feather? Reason I bring this up is just a friendly heads up as I have seen on some of those light weight Jay Feathers have a sticker that said 1,000# WD bars max. Jayco had some issues early on with higher tongue weigths/WD bars on those lighter frames. Now that you have a heavier suspension Van, is the any weight aft of the TV axle in the van? The WD hitch is going to work on that weight as well. And that then works on the WD bars and then into the A frame. Need to find out your loaded tongue weight, find out the WD bar rating and then regroup. And maybe a call to Jayco with your vin number to see if that 1,000# WD bar loading applies or not on your frame. Ask , what is the highest tongue weight and WD bar you can use without A frame concerns.
3. Since you have extra holes on the WD bar pad brackets, can you go up 1 hole on each side? That will give you a lot more WD. But again check your weights out first. Don’t want to fix the WD to then find out you have an A frame issue. Your 2" hi rise ball really lowers the head. A 1" hi rise and lifting the WD pads up might give you the WD but and the WD bars be more parallel to the frame and not riding up hill to much. Some up hill will work, a real lot might create some turning issues.
Hope this all helps some. Tell me if I miss read into some of your setup. Glad to help as I can.
Thanks
John
* This post was
last
edited 07/13/10 07:55pm by JBarca *
View edit history
Offline
l.jpg)
