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Topic: 1985 Rockwood - Ford E350 - No fuel!

Posted By: James85C on 07/16/10 09:57am

Greetings, this is my first time posting anything on GoodSam. Sadly, I'm writing due to a problem with my beloved "new" RV, not just for fun!

So I picked up an 86 Rockwood class-C a couple months ago, with the main intention being a trip with my friends down to Missouri. Got her tuned up, and she ran flawlessly for 1000 miles on our trip last weekend. I really felt good that I had a solid rig for future use. Sure, she needed a few things here and there, but overall felt good.

Well, 2 days after my trip, I finished cleaning it out in my driveway, and went to take it back to the storage lot in town where I keep it. Well, she wouldn't start. Absolutely no fuel at the carb (Ford 460, Holley 4 bbl). Spray a bit of starting fluid, she fires immediately.

I guess the main purpose of my message is to see if anyone has some suggestions on where to start. I have confirmed that it has electric pumps. I have never been able to use the rear tank, only the front. The switchover unit on the frame rail does physically make a switching action when the dash switch is moved, so I don't think it's that. All wiring looks solid, and the main supply line from the switch box to the engine is not blocked (pulled hose off the filter, flows free by gravity). I did locate the "reset" button on the passenger kick panel, that did nothing for me. Could that unit itself be bad? Is there a way to bypass it to determine if that's the issue?

Did I likely have one dead fuel pump to start with (rear tank) and now my front tank pump is dead? Up next is checking wires for power, making sure it's not a bad relay or fuse, not that I know where relays or fuses for fuel pumps are anyways.

Does anyone know of a way to get a free wiring diagram for an old E350? That would be good to have. And a repair manual, as I'm not very familiar with Fords or anything RWD and carb'd for that matter.

Thanks for any tips or help!

Jamie


James - Chicago, IL
1986 27' Rockwood class-C
Ford E350 chassis - 460 ci



Posted By: Westronics on 07/16/10 10:02am

You might be able to get some help for the Ford MH assistance line - the number is 1-800-444-3311. If they cannot help directly, maybe they can re-direct you. I've used them before and they were very nice and helpful.


2002 Jayco Greyhawk 24SS, Camera, ScanGauge, Inverter, Airtabs, Portabote, SeeLevel II, Tireman valves, Xatnrex Battery Monitor, Aero-flo vent, Trik-L-Start, XPS Rib, Chains, Lil' Stanker, Be kind to septic systems Ford: 1-800-444-3311. RV Tires



Posted By: 1995brave on 07/16/10 10:19am

Did you check the filter in the inlet on the carb? Using a helper and an empty can, pull the gas line to the engine, have the helper or you hold it in the can, and the turn the ignition key on. If the electric pump is working you should get a good flow of gas out the hose.


Posted By: James85C on 07/16/10 10:21am

Nice, thanks for the tip. Definitely worth a try.

Honestly though, I'm thinking of just getting a generic inline fuel pump, plumbing it in, and putting fresh wiring to it. No question then everything is new/good. Chasing 25 year old wiring gremlins is no fun!


Posted By: James85C on 07/16/10 10:25am

And no, I have not checked the filter (if there is one) at the inlet of the carb. So far, just had a friend turn the key on and off while I was under the tanks, absolutely zero sound from either one. The only item I can confirm is doing anything (or making some sound during operation) is the tank selector switch box.

My idea of a pump ahead of that switch box seems like it would get me going, and possibly let me use both tanks, I'm just not sure if the pump will want to suck that far. I read online that they like to be as close to the tank as possible, so they're sucking from a short distance. We shall see I guess...


Posted By: j-d on 07/16/10 10:28am

We had an 83 E350/460/C6 chassis under our 84 Holiday. Check the following to be sure your system is like ours was:

1. A "Y" or "T" fitting near the carburetor. Two lines in (actually one in from the fuel pump and one return to the tank) and one line out (to the carb inlet).

2. No mechanical fuel pump on the engine timing case cover.

3. Select switch under dash, select valve in chassis rail, two tanks with a pump each.

4. A small blue wire plugged ont the starter solenoid (fender well by battery) in addition to the small red one.

OK, if all this matches, this is what we had.

It quit one day. I could crank and crank then it would start, run a few hundred yards and quit again. I could crank and crank and the process would repeat. Turned out to be a blown fuse in the panel, between steering column and parking brake pedal, under the dash. I replaced with an auto reset circuit breaker and that problem never came back.

In the system I think you have, like the one we had, a low oil pressure switch on the upper rear of the engine keeps the pump from operating in normal mode unless the presence of oil pressure confirms that the engine is running.

So how can it get fuel to start? When you're cranking, the energized starter solenoid puts voltage on the blue wire and powers the pump on the tank selected with the dash switch.

You can test pump and power to it with the blue wire! Pull it off the solenoid and apply 12VDC to it using a fused test lead. I say fused but use an auto reset breaker for tests like this. You may need an assistant to listen, but you can hear the selected pump run. Switch and repeat.

I burned out the field windings in a starter with all the cranking. After all, the starter's dropping the voltage the pump needs to fill the tank in a timely manner. Made starting a long process. I added a pushbutton switch, powered off the fuel pump breaker, and connected it to that blue wire instead of the solenoid. Turn key to Run, press Button, Hold 15 seconds, Release Button and Crank. Engine started instantly ever after.

If a pump like we're talking about here fails, you CAN install an aftermarket pump into the feed line and power it from the OEM pump's power lead. These are low pressure pumps (5-7 PSI). They work on a screw principle and fuel will pull past the impeller. Not so on the high pressure EFI pumps...

I never found a good wiring diagram or somebody who could help with the switching system so I hope your problem isn't there. There's at least one relay, some resistance wire, and probably a couple other things I never figured out. A friend had a cube van with this setup and the switching part failed. He worked out a jury rig process where one tank had to pump into the other and fuel feed was only from one tank.

He also powered the pump from an always-hot terminal without realizing it. Until the intake flooded with gasoline forced past the carb needle/seat and he had an engine compartment fire. Be careful with workarounds.

* This post was edited 07/16/10 10:43am by j-d *


If God's Your Co-Pilot Move Over, jd
2003 Jayco Escapade 31A on 2002 Ford E450 V10 4R100 218" WB


Posted By: j-d on 07/16/10 10:41am

James, since other replies came in...

1. Just turning the key ON won't run either pump, reason noted above.

2. Our carb had an inlet filter. I replaced it and when I did I added an inline filter at the outlet of the select valve. The little carb filters have little surface area and plug easily. The added filter was bigger, clear plastic, and I could inspect/change it easily.

3. The little "Y"/"T" up by the carb can fail. Its job is to provide enough resistance that the carb gets what it needs and excess gas goes back through the select valve to the selected tank. Select valve is Four IN (Two Fuel and Two Returns, one each per tank) and Two OUT (Fuel to "Y"/"T" and Return back).

4. As I mentioned, you can use aftermarket pumps like the little Purolator/Facet kind. If you find you need to do that, I'd like to see you install near each tank. The push better than the pull and you don't get vapor lock on the push side.

5. You need to do a little more troubleshooting before you change parts. It may be only a filter, a fuse, or that "Y"/"T" fitting. If you get it to start and won't keep running, could be that fuse, oil pressure switch, or related wiring. Mechanic told me that a little water in the gas can make the pump balk and that might have been what blew the pump fuse. As I said before, with the breaker in place I had no further problems. I don't know if it ever tripped and reset, in time for the pump to keep the carb full.

6. Fuel pump relay is inside the left front fender. There's a pair on a bracket, and I don't know if it's one per pump or one for pumps and other for something else.


Posted By: James85C on 07/16/10 11:12am

j-d,

What you described about your old 83 is exactly how my 85 is set up (mine is an 86 Rockwood on an 85 chassis). And when she was previously running, she could be extremely hard to start, it would take a loooong crank and a lot of pumping to get her to fire. Your idea of a button or switch to run the pump before / during cranking (or just as a test) is a great idea.

I did locate the 2 relays you speak of, mine aren't mounted to anything, they were just laying in there. All wires looked intact, connections clean. I suppose I'll test them to check for proper function.

I'm gonna do a bit more diagnostic with the info I've learned from your posts before replacing anything. It still doesn't explain why my rear tank/pump has never worked, but that's a whole different topic. At this point, I just want to be able to get the RV back to the storage lot for now and use it next weekend! One tank does the job, but sure makes for a lot of fuel stops. To be on the safe side, we were stopping every 90 miles during the Missouri trip. She did average about 7 mpg, which I thought was pretty damm good for that old beast with 10 people in it! Of course, the smaller of the 2 tanks is the one that works. How many gallons is it supposed to hold? We would stop when the needle got near E, but she never took more than 13 gallons. Gauge never read all the way to full though, despite the tank being filled to the brim.

Thanks again, the info you shared is exactly what I needed. I always get a kick out of sharing old knowledge that is no longer of any use to me. I assume you haven't thought of your old 84 in a while!


Posted By: j-d on 07/16/10 12:59pm

We replaced our 1984 in 2008 with a 2003. The '03 does not drive as well, does not get any better mileage, and is far more complex to fix.

I had an 83 owner's manual and a Haynes service manual, both went with the coach. I think front tank was maybe 20 gal and rear maybe 24. I'd budget 140 miles on the front tank and 160 on the rear. But generally I could only put 18 front and 21 rear. Our gauge wouldn't reach F and would still run below E.

Haynes manual isn't bad up throught the last of the carbed E-Series and it includes wiring diagrams. They weren't complete for the tanks, though. Might at least give you wiring colors. Remember, there will be at least a pump power and a fuel gauge connection at your tank. Possibly a ground, possibly more. You could eliminate the gauge by powering up the dashboard, noting the reading, then unplugging the wire you tihnk is the gauge sender. You should see the gauge change. Then if there's only one ungrounded wire left, it'd be the pump motor.
The Pre-Start Button will solve that section of your issues. Hopefully you'll get through the rest!


Posted By: j-d on 07/16/10 01:06pm

Go Hereand look at E2140S.

Three wire connector but I can't tell if one of the three is ground or it's above ground and ground comes throught the mounting flange.


Posted By: James85C on 07/16/10 01:29pm

Man, you are giving me all new confidence to get this rig back on the road. I have to admit, when I went to bed at 1am last night, with the RV not running any better than when I started, I was pretty deflated. Didn't help that I managed to put a small pin-hole in my gas tank, trying the old "bang on the tank" trick to get the pump to run. Yeah, JB weld to the rescue tonight. That tank needs some kinda shield, it's a little rusty on the surface, I don't want a rock or something causing an issue down the road.

So the newer generation of E-series is no improvement, eh? Honestly, I was frikkin' impressed with how this old girl did on the highway. We were loaded down pretty good, but she was smooth and straight. The engine could use a bit more power, but ran just fine. I was pretty impressed with ~7.5 mpg (best tank of the trip), I was expecting 5 or less.

Oh, something else I discovered last night that I wasn't a big fan of. So I'm inside the cab, with the engine cover off, looking around on the engine. Bored, I turn the key backward to put the radio on. Every time I do this, a loud click/thunk sound (sounds like a heavy relay) comes from under the hood on the driver's side. This also happens when you turn the key forward. Anyways, radio is playing for 10-15 minutes or so, and I accidentally notice these little valve things that are attached in-line with a vent of some sort on the top of each carb bowl are HOT. I follow these vent lines, and they head to an area where an air pump used to be under the hood (now just bare lines with bolts in them). What are these little valves, and should I just disconnect them (electrically) since my air pump system isn't even intact?


Posted By: Jamesq on 07/16/10 01:36pm

my friend has a rockwell same problen the fix is under the hood in a box on the drivers side un screw the cove a push the reseat button.hope this helps. James


Posted By: Jamesq on 07/16/10 01:39pm

also that model has the fuel punp on the frame.and not in the tank.


Posted By: James85C on 07/16/10 01:42pm

Well, mine's a Rockwood, but I imagine it's all the same. I found a reset button inside the cab, near the passenger footwell. That didn't seem to help at all. Perhaps I'm not hitting the right reset button! I will look again.

Dang I need a repair manual! I've had no luck online, guess I might just suck it up and buy one, or maybe go copy some pages at the library.


Posted By: James85C on 07/16/10 01:43pm

I was under there last night, I'm pretty sure the only thing in the frame rail is the switching box to select from tank 1 or tank 2. It merely swaps the connections, no pumping.


Posted By: j-d on 07/16/10 03:44pm

The first of the EFI units might have had a frame mounted high pressure pump, and none in the tank, but this series has a pump (per tank if two tanks) and no mechanical pump on the engine either. This isn't to say somebody might not have installed one. As I mentioned before, the Ford low pressure pumps used with the carbureted engines will allow fuel to be drawn through them if they're not running. This is how I got fuel for our genset when I installed it.
Problem is, the people who understand the old units are getting away from them, retiring, or simply forgetting. Gee, what were we talking about...


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/16/10 05:30pm

j-d and I have posted on this subject before and I agree with everything he has said, he knows this stuff better than I do.

I have a 1984 that had fuel delivery issues on a vacation a thousand miles from home and I developed a work around that got me home.

I have an electric external fuel pump (Holly Blue with pressure regulator) mounted on the frame above the rear-end next to the fuel tank. Very long story about faulty old wiring having too much resistance involving the low pressure oil switch, inertia switch, ignition switch and relay. To solve this problem on the side of the road I just ran a fused jumper wire from the engine battery directly back to the fuel pump and it got me home.

I had the same hard start with lots of cranking until I added a bypass and now it starts instantly every time, too bad it took me a year to figure this out.

I thought this may help you with a diagnosis if you decide to add an external pump for experimentation.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.


Show me the GRILL and STAND BACK!!!!



Posted By: James85C on 07/16/10 09:02pm

Thanks again for the info, old Ford fuel masters. I meant the rig is old, not you guys. Or maybe you are. I feel old at 32 some days...

I got out there for a bit tonight, learned a few things. For starters, I located the blue fuel pump wire on the starter solenoid, on the passenger side fender. There's a similar solenoid/diode on the driver's side fender, but that battery is for the coach only, nothing to do with the engine or drive systems.

Here's the wire I jumped:
http://gallery.jamieanton.com/misc/cars/RV/RV_battery.jpg.php

Making the connection caused a small draw of power, but nothing concerning. Seemed to be making a proper connection. So from there, I headed under the rig to listen to the fuel tank. I had the switch in the truck switched to "front", my tank that had always worked before. Absolutely zero sound from the tank. Turned the key forward (knowing it did nothing for the pump, but whatever), still zero sound. So for fun, I flipped the dash switch over to the rear tank, which has never been able to fuel the engine. Crawled under, ear to the tank... I've got pumping! Well, sounded more like strange bubbling or something (mind you, the only fuel pump I've ever listened to is for EFI), but either way, something is happening back there. However... it does nothing to get fuel to the engine, as has always been the case.

SO... I have confirmation that jumping the blue wire WILL get power to the rear fuel pump. While I have zero sound/pumping at the front tank, I haven't confirmed whether or not power is getting there (I imagine it is, all wiring looks good).

My guess at this time: The front pump went bad, and the rear tank is unable to fuel the engine for some reason, despite the pump running. I think my next step is to possibly pull a fuel line off the rear tank, see if it is actually pumping any fuel or not. If so, I might bypass the switch unit, see if the rear tank can supply the engine directly.

If not, and my strange/bubbling pump is unable to pump fuel to the engine... I think it's time for an external pump. What is the minimum PSI / flow rate needed? I saw some pretty inexpensive pumps online that claimed to move about 15 gal/hr, I imagine that could do the trick? Others I saw claimed 30 gallons per hour. I actually do have a small inline electric pump on my generator (no clue on the specs), I might try plumbing that in and see if it gets me going. I'm pushing my luck with the RV in the driveway, it's a 3-day limit in my town, I'm going on 6!

Thanks again for all the advice guys. Hopefully I'll get her back on the road this weekend.

Jamie


Posted By: j-d on 07/16/10 09:42pm

15 GPH is minimum in my opinion. I'd heard a 454 Chevy in a Class A can use 25GPH climbing a steep grade at high RPM. Don't know if that's been confirmed, but 15 seems to be at the bottom of the range. Here's Facet-Purolator

http://www.facet-purolator.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=7&id=16&Itemid=31

And there are other types on their site. The one on the genset should be a very low pressure unit with a check valve feature. I used a small Facet with 3PSI and no check valve, never had a problem, but original ONAN has a shutoff valve. I'd say 30 GPH and 5-7 PSI.

There seems to be one more small wire on your solenoid than we had, but it seems like you have two blue wires and selected the right one. I first just pulled the blue wire and held it to the end of the positive battery terminal bolt. I could usually hear a pumo whirr, but not a bubbling sound. Is your rear tank empty?

The link I sent was for illustration and is a full Pump Assembly. If you go in to replace a pump, all you need is a Pump Kit. Essentially the little pump at the bottom of the assembly and a new strainer. I have a source for those if you want to order one. Problem with our Holiday was that if the front tank had to come down, I would have had to pull the genset then cut access holes to get at the bolts. Coach came to me with a new-looking front pump. I would have much rather replaced the rear pump event though the tank was bigger.

I don't think the blue wire doesn't need the fuel pump fuse to power the pump. May be fused somewhere but I didn't find it. To me, that means you might find a fuse or wire problem in the running side of the pump wiring.

I just bought a pump kit for our 2003 coach and it came with an adapter wiring harness. Harness had Red and Black wires, so I think that in the link above, that Black is Pump Ground, Red is Pump Run, and Yellow is Fuel Gauge Sender. That's inside the tank. I don't know what the external connection colors are.


Posted By: mobilefleet on 07/17/10 07:27am

460 has a fuel pump relay, a small square one, mounted near the battery...pull the harness off it and swap it with the a/c relay which is right next to it, they are the same. If it starts there's your problem. Very popular for getting moisture up in them and causing no starts


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/17/10 11:03am

Quote:

I meant the rig is old, not you guys. Or maybe you are. I feel old at 32 some days...
Now that was funny Yes, old 53.

Here clicky is the pump I have been using for the last seven years over 30K mikes. I set the included regulator to 5.5 to 6.0 pounds.

The Red Holly clicky would probably be fine and it is pre set at 7 pounds and requires no regulator if seven pounds is not to high.

Good luck, Gary

On edit here are the links with all the specs:

http://www.holley.com/12-802-1.asp

http://www.holley.com/12-801-1.asp

Never had that happen before, something did corrupt the links.

* This post was last edited 07/17/10 05:19pm by Grillmeister *


Posted By: j-d on 07/17/10 02:10pm

GM - the clickys need to be edited. Extra characters got into them somehow. Must be old age at 53, huh? Sorry for you - I'm a young 66.
Agree on the Red pump. Do you think it'd pull fuel all the way from the rear if he mounted one pump, ahead of his select valve, so it pulled from the tank selected? That'd be instead of a pump at each tank.

* This post was edited 07/17/10 02:51pm by j-d *


Posted By: James85C on 07/17/10 03:21pm

53? 66? Ok, 32 is feeling young again.

Well fellas, I picked up a $45 Mr Gasket 35 gph pump at advance auto, plumbed it in, wired it to the factory wiring for the rear pump... she fired up immediately. I had the engine idling waaaay smoother than it ever did when cold. I'll hold off on a primer button until I use this pump a bit, see how she does w the factory wiring. So far, seems great!

Now if I have another $45 burning a hole in my pocket, I'll get one for the front tank too. At least now I'm running the bigger of the two.

Thanks for all the help guys. Young guys like me need it from time to time

Jamie


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/17/10 05:18pm

WHOOO HOOO!!! Successsss!!!

Good job guys I wish I had j-d around when I was trying to fix mine.

j-d wrote:

Agree on the Red pump. Do you think it'd pull fuel all the way from the rear if he mounted one pump, ahead of his select valve, so it pulled from the tank selected? That'd be instead of a pump at each tank.
According to the direstions from Holly "No". They say to mount it as close as possible to the tank and lower than the bottom of the tank. So I went ahead and broke all the rules as I usually do and I mounted it upside down at the top of the tank and after the filter. All that said, when I connected 12 volts to it the first time I had the fuel line at the carb disconnected to flush the lines and it produced fuel in about two seconds, has worked well so far. I also removed the "pellet" filter in the front of the carb so I only have one filter right out of the tank before the pump. That way I protect the pump and I only have one place to look for filter issues. But if my pump ever spits out some junk I am sure it will plug up my carb

j-d wrote:

Must be old age at 53, huh? Sorry for you - I'm a young 66.
OK you got me

Jamie wrote:

53? 66? Ok, 32 is feeling young again.

I never thought I would get to say this "WOW just a kid"
I didn't think about the fact you may have never owned anything with a carb before, that's funny.

Jamie Very good job of diagnosing with multiple problems, sometimes it seems impossible. I also replaced ALL of my fuel and vapor lines on my rig after finding some rotten fuel lines.

Great Forum, you guys have a great weekend and Jamie enjoy your rig.

* This post was edited 07/17/10 05:39pm by Grillmeister *


Posted By: j-d on 07/17/10 05:46pm

HOOOO-RAH!!!


Posted By: James85C on 07/17/10 06:27pm

Thanks again guys. My first car was an 87 TBI sunbird, but I still own my dad's 62 Vette, so I know a LITTLE about carb'd cars. No doubt I didn't grow up with carbs, can't say I'm too upset about that!

Now to just go plug that front tank hole w JB Stik, and park the rig at the storage lot. I owe all you guys a ton!

Jamie

ps, if anyone wants to see some pics from her maiden voyage to MO, here they are:

http://gallery.jamieanton.com/misc/Dtrip/

Yep, her first trip was a bachelor party. My wife is expecting our first child in November, so next year's trips will be a little different!


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/18/10 09:50am

Jamie,

Great pics, you guys are having too much fun!!

Take care, Gary


Posted By: James85C on 07/19/10 07:44am

One last update... I did get the front tank leak patched with JB-Stik (great product, btw), and finished mounting the fuel pump nice and tight. Here she is installed on the cross-beam, just ahead of the rear tank. There was even a perfectly sized hole already in that beam, right where I wanted to put the pump.

http://tinyurl.com/33t7j5x

Also, as discovered during the first 10 seconds of my test drive... she is running smoother than ever! I always figured the carb was gummed up, probably needed a rebuild or replacement. It was hard to start, hard to idle, and would always hesitate when you take off from a stop unless you worked the pedal just right. Not any more. Now I just wish I had done this pump before the Missouri trip. But again, I must thank her for dying in my driveway, not somewhere in the middle of nowhere, with 9 other people on board.

Well, thanks again for all the help. Can't wait to take the RV out camping with the family next weekend.

Jamie


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/21/10 11:52am

Looks good and yes, JB Stick and their other products are good stuff.


Posted By: James85C on 07/26/10 08:32am

Well, I'm back. Sadly, not after a nice weekend away with the family in the RV. I left work early on Friday, helped the wife finish packing up, got the dogs inside, closed up the house, fired up the beast... and made it about 2 blocks. The engine was sputtering, stalling, and generally running awful.

Long story short... by switching the fuel source from the front tank to the rear tank, I ended up clogging the inline fuel filter (attached to the fuel pump), and was running the engine off some really old gas. Soon after I bought the RV, I filled up the rear tank, but it only took ~14 gallons or so. So that leaves at least 6 gallons of fuel that I have no idea how old it was. Considering the rear fuel pump was dead when I bought the rig, it coulda been dead for years and years.

During my investigation, I took this video of the fuel flow I was getting just ahead of the fuel tank switchover valve. Not much flow, and some dark colored fuel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrLqpSfzssY

So, I removed the pump from the rear tank, installed it on the front tank, and will likely have her running perfect again tonight when I get home from work and finish wiring it up. Long-term, I'll have to drop the rear tank, empty it out, and likely clean a lot of rust/dirt/yuck out of it.

While our trip got canceled, I once again have to give the RV thanks for "stranding" itself at home, and not somewhere on the side of the road. Not to mention it was the hottest day of the year last Friday here in Chicago, and the next day was nearly as hot with massive thunderstorms. I think she was just trying to tell us that this was NOT the weekend for enjoyable camping. Sadly, our next available weekend to go is in 3 weeks, but I guess that's plenty of time to once again make SURE the RV is ready to travel.

Most "frustrating" thing... this rig went 1000 miles FLAWLESSLY to Missouri, now I can't get it to go camping 80 miles away. Ah well, she'll cruise again soon...


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/26/10 08:59am








Posted By: James85C on 07/26/10 10:34am

Yeah, that kinda sums it up.

So when I removed the filter that attaches to the pump, I could BARELY blow any air through it. When I got a new filter, I could blow right through it. Sounds like an obviously clogged filter, right? Of course, sawing the old filter apart just makes things more mysterious.

http://tinyurl.com/27jnm72

However, even if there isn't anything in the filter, it was restricting flow. I was just hoping to see some crud in there to validate my issue. Perhaps I just had a faulty filter. Either way, new filter on a known-clean tank will ensure proper operation. For now.


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/26/10 12:02pm

Wow, just screen inside the filter? No paper? Looks like it would let some pretty big stuff through, but then why couldn’t you blow through it? It's a mystery, you better go on a test drive before the next trip

Also, considering the ugly fuel you just pushed through carb you may consider a can or two of "Seafoam". If you are not familiar with it you can do a search here, I have never seen any negative comments about it.


Posted By: James85C on 07/26/10 01:05pm

Yeah, I guess that filter is just meant to catch rocks or similar big items. Either way, it was definitely clean, all I found in there were metal shavings from me cutting the thing in 1/2. I think the lack of flow might have seriously been a defect or something. It's meant to only flow one way, so perhaps it was just too tight internally or something. Either way, my new filter was flowing completely free. A nice LONG test-drive is definitely in order after I get her running again.

I have used Seafoam before, and it's definitely worth a try once I get her running on the front tank. Of course, the filler neck for the front tank has a slight leak, so you end up leaving a little puddle under the RV when you fill up. That was another advantage of moving to the back tank, I didn't have to deal with that just yet. I guess I'll get under there and see where the leak is, I think it's on the rubber hose. I really wouldn't care much if it weren't for it spilling out when the tank is full and you're parked on a slight incline. My driveway, sadly, is at a slight incline. Hmmm, maybe some more JB-Stik will take care of this...

As for what made it to the carb... I have 2 filters between the pump and the carb (one inline, one at the carb), and I replaced both of those. The filter on the carb looked like new, so I do feel pretty good that nothing too nasty got into the carb, other than old fuel.


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/26/10 02:50pm

Quote:

As for what made it to the carb... I have 2 filters between the pump and the carb (one inline, one at the carb), and I replaced both of those. The filter on the carb looked like new, so I do feel pretty good that nothing too nasty got into the carb, other than old fuel.

That is really smart, I only have one filter right out of the tank before the fuel pump. You were lucky you have it set up that way. Let us know how you make out.

I believe NAPA sells universal fuel filler hose that is something like 1 1/2 inch diameter.

Happy Camping


Posted By: James85C on 07/26/10 03:07pm

Yeah, no question it's nice I have 3 layers of protection. Total cost of those 3 filters, $11. I think I'm gonna take the time to install the primer button too. Certainly can't hurt to have it.

Oooh, one other item I noticed when I was diagnosing this issue... when I jump the blue wire at the starter solenoid, it sends full power to the pump (~12.6 volts at the pump, same as the alternator puts out at idle at the battery). When I remove the jumper wire and just have the pump running off its regular "engine running" power source, it reads about 11.5 volts at the pump. At first I thought this was my issue, as the engine would start right up, but not run well under load. Either way, is it in any way normal to lose 1 volt comparing the crank input to regular input? I'm sorta tempted to install a primer switch instead of button, and leave it on to ensure the pump is getting full power at all times. Just gotta remember to turn it off when you turn off the engine. With as loud as this pump whines, I can't believe I would ever forget!


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/26/10 03:32pm

That voltage drop is why I bypassed mine. I was only getting 8.5 volts to the pump from the factory wiring, I surmised this was from old wiring and components. If you do bypass it you are losing a safety feature in case of an accident (just thought you should know). I wired mine direct from the battery, fuse, relay, pump. The relay is switched on by the ignition switch when it is in the start or run position. I can turn on the key and listen to the pump run for ten seconds and then pump the throttle and then start, works everytime

Yes my Holly is so loud you could never leave it on by accident.


Posted By: James85C on 07/26/10 03:35pm

Hmmm, well, this was the voltage on the rear pump line, guess I'll check the front pump wiring first. If it also has a similar voltage drop, perhaps I will rewire mine like you did yours. I like the idea of the pump just coming on when I turn the key forward, eliminates the need for the "primer button." I might put a kill-switch on it anyways though, would sorta give me an extra piece of mind.


Posted By: Ripsnort on 07/26/10 04:12pm

James85C wrote:


ps, if anyone wants to see some pics from her maiden voyage to MO, here they are:

http://gallery.jamieanton.com/misc/Dtrip/

Yep, her first trip was a bachelor party. My wife is expecting our first child in November, so next year's trips will be a little different!

Holy cow...John Belushi LIVES!!!!



Stupid should hurt.

1990 Fleetwood Jamboree 27 ft E350

Cabover Rebuild Project


Posted By: James85C on 07/28/10 07:59am

Ha, that's my friend's friend Yash. He's Indian. Not quite Belushi-like without his shades, but a good call regardless!

So I'm about ready to put an ad online for my beast, listed just like the ad when I bought it: "Won't run, $2k obo, come get it."

Absolutely NOTHING I'm doing is getting fuel to flow from the front tank to the pump. I think the directions saying "mount the pump lower than the tank" is what's getting me. Doesn't help the beast is parked on an incline in my driveway, and I'm installing the pump on the front of the tank.

I'm guessing there is some way to "prime" the line to get fuel flowing, but so far, I've got nada. Who knows, maybe that's what killed it last time, since I had it mounted at about the middle of the rear tank, and she died on me when I had about a 1/2 tank of gas. Who knows. Tired of smelling like gas each night and not getting anywhere. Might just bite the bullet and drop the tanks, installing proper in-tank pumps. However, I want to do that like I want to put a hole in my head. I just need this thing to run and at minimum make it back to the storage lot before I get a ticket for it being in my driveway too long. UGGGGGHHHH....


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/28/10 10:25am

Grillmeister wrote:

I mounted it upside down at the top of the tank and after the filter


My Holly pulls fuel through the filter and up with no problem no matter how low I run the tank.


Posted By: James85C on 07/28/10 11:17am

Maybe my pump is defective? When I installed it on the rear tank, I had gas flowing out of the line as soon as I cut it to install the pump (mind you, the RV was backed into my driveway, so I was below the fuel level at that time). I ran the pump last night with the input hose off, it has absolutely no air suction, so it's obvious that it won't be able to suck fuel out of the tank unless the line is primed with fuel. Perhaps I need to do some more research into the specific pump I have. The directions clearly said it should be mounted below the tank level. Based on your experience, I figured this was more of a suggestion than a requirement.

I googled the topic of fuel pump location and ended up on some classic car forum. People there said they use the Holley blue pump as high as 2' above their gas tank, hidden in the trunk, with no issues.


Posted By: gkainz on 07/28/10 11:23am

stick the intake hose in a fuel can, and hold the output hose over the can, apply 12v to the pump to verify it's working. Does is make pumpy/whiny kind of noises?

If it pumps fuel out of a gas can, then the next suspect in my mind is cracked/clogged/broken/missing intake fuel hose from the tank to the pump.

If not that, then clogged line upstream of the pump? Thought (and not going back to read the previous 5 pages) dual tanks, right? If the tank selector valve is defective (or just operating incorrectly) your upstream fuel flow could be blocked by that valve.

I'm running a Holley Red (or maybe the Carter is under there again/still? don't recall ... I have both) and my pump is mounted to the crossmember ahead of the tank, about level with the middle of the tank (top to bottom).


'97 Dodge 2500 CTD 4x4
'10 Keystone Laredo 245 5er



Posted By: j-d on 07/28/10 11:53am

I've been lurking on this, trying to figure out what's been happening and how to counter it.

That long trip probably stirred up crud in the bottoms of the tanks. Yes, the pumps are already in the bottom, but I imagine (emphasis on that word) a coating of "mud" and the pump forms a clean spot in close. Drive hard and all the mud gets loose. Just imagining... But I've seen boats that ran fine for years, then got into sloppy weather and clogged their filters.

Now that G_M has confessed, I'll do the same. I ran Ignition Run power from the electrc pump fuse out through the firewall to that wire from the starter solenoid.

Just got to thinking - The safety feature could be preserved by running this new power source through the oil pressure switch. The a pushbutton switch to bypass the oil pressure switch for starting.

Let me think about this a little more and I'll be back with more thoughts.


Posted By: James85C on 07/28/10 12:09pm

ok, a bit more info...

I did verify that clean fuel can be easily sucked out of the front tank that I'm hooking up to. I used a turkey baster (I keep an old one in the garage), and used it to suck fuel out of the line. Within 2 attempts (clamping the fuel line to keep the suction in it while I re-squeeze the baster bulb), I had plenty of gas coming out. Definitely not clogged in the tank.

Before that, I did try sucking fuel out of a gas can. No dice. I then checked the pump for air suction, and it provides none. I removed the screw-in filter, it has no blockage at all.

The pump does run seemingly fine, but I have no idea if I could tell that it's running properly or not. It is getting a full 12v to it.

I just found this info about my pump online. Claims to be "self-priming." I would guess that means it should suck air when disconnected, and should be able to suck fuel out of a tank when starting with air?

I'm tempted to pick up another pump, see if it will suck air right out of the box. If so, then I guess I have a defective pump. Doesn't give me much confidence about the longevity of this thing though, if one clog (or whatever went wrong with my original filter) can totally kill it.

Pump info from Mr. Gasket's site:

"MICRO ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP-35GPH

MRG MICRO ELECTRIC FUEL PUMPS are compatible with all fuels and additives. Solid-state worry free electronics. Eliminates vapor lock and flooding. Works well as a fuel transfer pump and makes a great stand-alone or booster pump. Self-priming pump with simple two-wire design. Works on 12 Volt negative ground systems only. Includes fittings and mounting hardware along with easy to follow DIY instructions. Pumps require approximately one amp average draw at maximum delivery. Part No. 12S Specs: 4-7 PSI, 35 GPH. Universal design for most domestic 4, 6, & 8 cylinder carburetor applications. Not for Diesel applications!!

Model Number: 12S"


Posted By: j-d on 07/28/10 12:29pm

From the MRG 12S instructions:

"Remember an electric fuel pump is very efficient pushing fuel, it’s very inefficient at pulling fuel, always locate the pump nearest to the fuel supply as possible."

Here's a link to a site for another brand of pumps:

http://www.facet-purolator.com/index.php (I've been having trouble linking this right to the page, so just Copy/Past to a New Tab.)

Then select "cube" for the ones I've been talking about. FYI - They have many other types, including direct replacement for ONAN.

Notice that they have "lift" heights in their specs. MRG doesn't, just warns they don't lft well and to mount near the tank. That said, it seems MRG can't expect you to make a bracket that lowers the pump to bottom of tank or below. The chassis rail mount has to be acceptable.

* This post was edited 07/28/10 12:49pm by j-d *


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/28/10 12:32pm

Quote:

stick the intake hose in a fuel can, and hold the output hose over the can, apply 12v to the pump to verify it's working. Does is make pumpy/whiny kind of noises?
Agreed, I would even go so far as to suck on the hose that is coming from the fuel tank and see what happens.


Quote:

"Just got to thinking - The safety feature could be preserved by running this new power source through the oil pressure switch. The a pushbutton switch to bypass the oil pressure switch for starting."

I have been thinking about doing this ever since I bypassed mine.


Quote:

People there said they use the Holley blue pump as high as 2' above their gas tank, hidden in the trunk, with no issues.
The Blue Holly is the one I am running, I liked it so much I got a spare and set it up with the fuel line fittings and wiring plugs so I can swap it out in ten minutes if necessary. As stated before the Holly Blue is LOUD.

Quote:

my pump is mounted to the crossmember ahead of the tank, about level with the middle of the tank (top to bottom).
That is exactly how mine is.


Posted By: James85C on 07/28/10 12:54pm

Quote:
my pump is mounted to the crossmember ahead of the tank, about level with the middle of the tank (top to bottom).

That is exactly how mine is.

...And that's exactly how I had mine, when it was on the rear tank. I just read a couple very non-favorable reviews of this pump on Amazon.com, one person saying he went through 2 of these pumps in 14 miles of driving, and another person saying it has problems staying primed when parked on a hill:

"This thing has problems with being on a hill. If you have to park on the slightest incline be prepared to roll, push or winch to get pointed downhill so the pump primes itself. This also needs to be mounted on rubber feet because if it runs dry, from sitting on an incline, it literally sounds as though a tiny jackhammer is pounding on your vehicle. Trust me, it's loud and takes forever to prime itself, provided you're pointing downhill! "

Ugggh, sounds like I bought a crappy pump, and I doubt I'll get my $45 back after installing it, using it, and probably losing/tossing some of the packaging it came in. I guess my best bet at this point might be to buy another one and return the defective one in the new pump's complete packaging. However, now I'm going to be paranoid about this pump taking a******on me during a trip with the family. Uggggh, guess I'll start searching for a good price on the Holley blue pump. Maybe if I have a good pump on one tank and a so-so pump on the other, I won't feel so bad. My long-term plan was to have both tanks working anyways, just didn't want to bother this year. Ah well...


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/28/10 01:03pm

Quote:

I would guess that means it should suck air when disconnected, and should be able to suck fuel out of a tank when starting with air?
When I first installed my pump I also relocated and changed the fuel filter that is between the fuel tank and the pump and all the fuel lines too. This required the pump to suck fuel from the tank through a large can filter. The filter is one of those old screw on can types with a paper element inside, it is about 3" X 4" and the pump pulled the fuel through it instantly. I had the fuel line disconnected at the carb to flush out the lines and when I applied 12 volts to the pump for the first time with a completly dry system it delivered fuel to the carb hose in two seconds. So, yes, it should be able to suck the fuel up.


Posted By: j-d on 07/28/10 01:05pm

Tank select valves...

My friend told me they were discontinued. Shocked to just gOOgle this one:

http://velvac.thomasnet.com/category/system-products-electric-fuel-tank-selector-valves

and this one:

http://pollak.thomasnet.com/viewitems/fuel-tank-selector-valves/light-truck-6-port-motor-driven-valve?

Anyhow, I mentioned before that anybody who has one of these two-tank Fords is blessed if the problem is only the pumps since I didn't understand how tank select and pump relay worked. The Final Straw for me, leading me to wire the pump power supply direct, was a burnout in the wiring harness leading to the relay inside the left front fender. Coach quit on me, on the road. I'd had this happen with a voltage regulator failure. Ammeter was stuck, proving once again that Ignorance is Bliss. Anyhow, got out, checked voltages, tried to re-start and it did. I'd smelled something like rubber burning but couldn't see smoke or smell anything when we rolled to a stop. Re-stated, voltage right, blew it off as Gremlins and completed the trip OK. Couple trips later, quit across the road in front of the house as I was backing out. Wiring smoking this time. Powered the pump from the solenoid lead using a jumper wire, did the whole trip that way. Found out it was a length of special resistance wire within that harness that had overheated. Melted its own insulation and the tape creating the harness. I tried to find out how that circuit worked. Somebody told me there's also a diode, which I never found. I cut the resistance section out, taped off the ends, and re-taped the harness. Then made the pump feed from that solenoid terminal permanent. Didn't re-connect the pressure switch and bypass button. Coach was a PLEASURE to start, ran fine, no more smoke, no more issues. That was the state in which I sold the coach. Told the new owner the key absolutely had to be returned to OFF if for any reason the engine quit or there was an accident.
The Diode/Resist Wire/Relay issue is why I said I didn't understand that aspect of the system.


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/28/10 01:12pm

Quote:

I just read a couple very non-favorable reviews of this pump on Amazon.com
OHHHH NOOOOO!!


Posted By: James85C on 07/28/10 01:49pm

"So, yes, it should be able to suck the fuel up."

Sounds like I have a bad pump. It has absolutely zero suction (on my fingertip) when I run it.

As far as I can tell, the tank select valve is working fine. I can hear it switch internally when the switch on the dash is flipped, and I had no problem running off the rear tank for a while, and running 1000 miles on the front tank. I definitely also verified that the electrical switches over too, powering the proper pump based on which tank you select.

Sounds to me... like I bought a cheap pump, that has already died. I wonder if I can get my money back. I think I have just about everything it came with. Might be worth a try, and if I can't, buy another one and return it later. Problem is, I need to get this rig running NOW, not wait a week for a Holley blue pump in the mail. That's the whole reason I went with this pump, it was off the shelf at Advance Auto. Grrrr...


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/28/10 02:01pm

Amazon has the Red Holly here for $118 and will ship to my zip code tomorrow for $22 or Friday for $13.

If you can use the red Holly with the fixed max pressure of 7 pounds you will not have the extra hassel of mounting and setting the pressure regulator on the Blue. I don't know if seven pounds is too high or not. More research?

I got my Blue pump from Amazon but right now they are only showing the Red and Black.


Posted By: j-d on 07/28/10 02:25pm

http://www.amazon.com/Holley-12-801-1-Electric-Fuel-Pump/dp/B00029JC5S/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1280348629&sr=1-1


Posted By: James85C on 07/28/10 02:36pm

Wow, over $120. I think the in-tank pumps are something like $35. I'd probably go ahead and get 2 in-tank pumps before I spent $120. More work, but a pretty good savings.

For now, I'm gonna try and swap out my current pump, see if a 2nd one gets me going. I imagine it will, the question will be, "for how long?" Guess I shouldn't have expected much for $45.


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/28/10 02:50pm

I guess I am lucky, I have no switch valve for my gas tanks.

I have two 44 galloon tanks both behind the rear axle. They have a one inch cross over tube that fills them both from the single factory gas cap. The vents are tied together and the fuel return goes only to the original tank. The cross over tube allows the extra tank to completly empty into the factory tank because it is slightly higher. Works great no switch valve required, you just have to give it an extra minute when filling for the fuel to cross to the spare tank.

Well if you do drop the tanks at least you will have a chanch to clean them out.
Take care, Gary


Posted By: James85C on 07/28/10 02:54pm

Your rig holds 88 gallons of fuel? That has to be some kinda bill at the pump when you fill up!

Perhaps you meant 2x22 gallons, for a total of 44. Sounds a bit more likely.

Either way... I'd just be happy running off any tank of gas right about now! I'll get this figured out, I'm just annoyed as hell at it. Doesn't help that I have an extremely busy week at work, so I end up getting home late, working on it for 30 minutes, and by then I have the wife calling me inside. I really shouldn't even bother until I have more time to dedicate to it. Nothing worse than getting all gas-smelly for no reason.


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/28/10 03:17pm

Not a typo, two forty four gallon tanks. The most I have ever got in it was 77 gallons (took three credit cards). I ran it way down to change the original cross over hose and to see how far it would go before the fuel got below the generator fuel pic up. The 40 gallon fresh water tank is behind the rear axle too so when everything is full I think I can almost do a wheelie

With all the gas, propane, booze and BBQ gear I call it the "Rolling Bomb"

* This post was edited 07/28/10 04:25pm by Grillmeister *


Posted By: James85C on 07/29/10 07:35am

Now that is impressive. "Rolling Bomb" is an awesome nickname. Mine got the nickname "RoadRules", from the 90's MTV reality show that had 20-somethings cruising around the country doing different challenges in a class-C. However, my wife gave it the name "Patricia." I have no idea why. I'm soon to start calling it "that piece of sh!t in my driveway that won't run." I seriously cringe each morning as the garage door goes up and I see it in the driveway. Hopefully things go better with another fuel pump tonight.

I think with that Amazon review I read, and the trouble I've had... I will NEVER pull the RV forward into my driveway while it has this pump installed, only backed-in so the nose is pointing down. I think my next step (well, probably for next year) is dropping the rear tank, cleaning it out, and installing a proper in-tank pump.


Posted By: James85C on 07/29/10 11:44am

Well fellas, I decided to stop into Pep Boys on my lunch (the only auto parts store near my work, and sadly, my least favorite) to see what sort of pumps they offer. They didn't have the Mr. Gasket pumps, but they did have some very similar ones branded by Purolator. Price, $46, basically the exact same as the Mr. Gasket pump. I figure it's worth a try, it can't be any worse than the one I had. I'm gonna try to return the Mr. Gasket, but if I can't, I'll just swap it out for a new one and eventually install it on my small tank.



Wish me luck! That is, whenever I actually have time to install this thing...


Posted By: James85C on 07/29/10 12:56pm

I already feel better about this pump, just from the instructions. Mr. Gasket claimed the pump had to be below the bottom of the tank, this one says it has to be within 12" vertically from the bottom of the tank. So being 1/2 way up the tank, or up to a foot above the bottom, no problem.




Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/29/10 01:09pm

OK, waiting for results. You will probably want to hook this one up dry and see if it moves any air?

Good luck..........


Posted By: James85C on 07/29/10 01:12pm

Yep, absolute first test is to put power to this thing off the rig, see if it will suck air. It frikkin' better.

Tempted to go out to my car here at work and test that right now!

Fingers crossed, with any luck, she will be running tonight. Today is day 6 of our town's 3-day limit for RV's in the driveway. Doh!


Posted By: j-d on 07/29/10 06:02pm

delete!


Posted By: James85C on 07/29/10 08:08pm

delete?


Posted By: j-d on 07/29/10 08:35pm

Yeah. I noticed what I'd posted was already mentioned.

The pump's specified 12" lift, to be specific.

There's a way to delete text FROM a post, but not to delete the post itself.


Posted By: James85C on 07/29/10 09:20pm

Success! She runs!

Ended up bypassing the switchover valve. Not sure if that was the problem (new pump wasn't moving any fuel), but she runs now. Damm that test drive felt good!

Now I wanna go camping!


Posted By: skimask on 07/29/10 09:50pm

I looked at that pump (5/16" fuel fittings) for my rig ('76 Dodge 440), but decided against it after looking at the spec's for fuel flow and figured that under a load, climbing a hill, in cold weather, under maximum load, I figured I might run the carb dry. Short story made long, I went with a slightly larger (but not more expensive) pump with 3/8" fuel fittings.
Did your test drive include a long, extended, steep, uphill climb, with the tank near empty? I'm just wondering if it'll flow enough for the engine under the 'extreme' circumstances...

JDG


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/30/10 07:15am

Sounds like the next trip out will tell the rest of the story. At least you are making progress now.



Posted By: James85C on 07/30/10 08:24am

No, my test drive included a 3 mile loop of my neighborhood, with a max speed of 45 on flat roads. It was 10pm and I just wanted to confirm she could move herself, and then I wanted to go to bed.

I imagine there's a way I can do the math to make sure the fuel flow will be sufficient at all times. I guess with this thirsty beast getting ~7mpg, she was eating about 12 gallons every 1.5 hours on my last trip, or 8 gallons per hour. I suppose it's possible to consume 4x the amount of gas in an extreme situation (fully loaded, up hill, etc.), at which point I would be at the limit of the pump (32 gph). However, I don't plan to do anything too extreme with this beast. The roads are flat as pancakes around here, and anywhere the wife and I plan to take it would be "hilly" at best. Not to mention just the 2 of us plus our stuff don't really come close to fully loading it.

Either way, my beast is back in action, and I feel a LOT better about this pump compared to the last one. The old one sounded like there was some cheap impeller / turbine spinning inside. This new one sounds like a miniature jackhammer inside, at least until it starts flowing fuel, at which point it is very quiet.

My mounting job isn't exactly awesome (zip ties), but it will do for now. I'm gonna wait until I'm DAMN sure this pump is a winner before doing much more! I almost drove her to work today, but I wasn't in the mood. The wife would have been happy to see it out of the driveway though.




Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/30/10 08:32am

Love those under carrage pics, I think yours might be even uglier than mine underneath Or at least a tie

Glad it's running, very frustrating dealing with multiple problems.

Did the new pump move air when testing it dry?


Posted By: James85C on 07/30/10 02:26pm

Yeah, she's kinda dirty / surface-rusty under there, but not too bad for a 25 year old truck. I figure it's probably rare that RV's see action in the winter, so rust from salt should be absolutely minimal, and it is.

Indeed, the new pump both sucked and blew air when I tested it dry. The plunger/jackhammer sound it makes freaked me out. I was expecting a whirr/spinning sound like the other one, not so much. Amazing how quiet it gets when it finally has fuel running through it.

Now to just try and get my $45 back for the old pump. I found most of the packaging in my recycle bin (luckily wasn't recycling week this week), so I imagine I'll be able to. The manager at my local Advance Auto is a really nice guy, I bet he'll take care of me.


Posted By: James85C on 07/30/10 02:36pm

And I also gave her a test fire this morning after sitting all night... fired right up, no issues. I did have it backed-in to the driveway, so the nose was pointing down. Either way, we seem to have a winner. I haven't even made any wiring modifications, she's still 100% OEM wiring. The "primer" button will be a good thing for starts after she sits a while. I'll have to do that one evening in the storage lot, if I bring it home again to do any work on it in the next month, my wife might kill me.


Posted By: j-d on 07/30/10 07:44pm

SO glad it's running!
Be sure with select valve bypassed, that you get fuel from the return line back into the tank it came from.
And, according to specs, the pump you have is ignition-safe for use in a boat. Amazing at the price.


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/30/10 08:21pm

j-d wrote:

SO glad it's running!
Be sure with select valve bypassed, that you get fuel from the return line back into the tank it came from.
And, according to specs, the pump you have is ignition-safe for use in a boat. Amazing at the price.
I had a set up years ago that returned fuel to the wrong tank and it over flowed. It took a few times to figure out what was happening

Very good suggestion.


Posted By: James85C on 07/31/10 09:34am

Yeah, I actually thought about that. I bypassed the feed line, but not the return. I will likely bypass that one also so I know they are both flowing properly, to the correct tank.

Drove her back to the storage lot yesterday after work, she was running better than ever. I couldn't find a ton of info on this new Purolator-Facet fuel pump online (although I did notice j-d suggested it in one of his first posts on this thread), the few items I did see mostly talked about them as diesel transfer pumps, with people being very happy with them. It should be a winner, and when the time comes, my 2nd tank will be getting one of these also.

Thanks for all the support and help, guys!


Posted By: subford on 07/31/10 09:41am

Without reading this whole Thread here is your wiring diagram if you still need it:


/


95 F53 460 E4OD COACHMEN SANTARA RV CLASS "A"
86 E250 351W C6 VEHICLE CONCEPTS CORP Class "B"
83 E350 460 C6 DIAMOND CLASS "C" SOLD
subford@gmail.com



Posted By: James85C on 07/31/10 10:12am

Thanks subford, I will definitely keep that handy for the future!


Posted By: Grillmeister on 07/31/10 11:03am

Subford

Thanks for the diagram, I needed one too, mine is a 1984.


Posted By: j-d on 07/31/10 11:57am

This is the diagram I was never able to find! On ours, the .75-ohm resistance wire between the two relays overheated. I'd heard there was a diode but never actually found it. That said, I'm not diagram-savvy enough to know why the diode's there, why Ford wanted resistance, why there are more diodes down by the pumps. Transients, maybe.
But I'm tucking that diagram away too. Who knows when somebody'll need it!
Thanks!


Posted By: James85C on 08/05/10 11:57am

Took the dead fuel pump back to Advance last night. At first I thought the person working had misunderstood me since she brought out another fuel pump to replace mine. I then told her "no, I want to return it for a refund." I was then told that electrical parts can't be returned if they are used, but she did offer me a full refund in store credit. Since I plan to shop there in the future, I figured this was better than getting another crappy fuel pump.

I think long-term, I'm going to add another Purolator-Facet pump to the rear tank, and just have it dump into the front tank. However, that will be a little dangerous as the rear tank is bigger than the front, so I could theoretically overfill the front one. Perhaps I'll swap it over to have the engine run off the rear tank, and plumb the front tank to pour into the rear. I just want to avoid using the tank selector valve if possible, as I don't really trust it.


Posted By: skimask on 08/05/10 01:41pm

j-d wrote:

This is the diagram I was never able to find! On ours, the .75-ohm resistance wire between the two relays overheated. I'd heard there was a diode but never actually found it. That said, I'm not diagram-savvy enough to know why the diode's there, why Ford wanted resistance, why there are more diodes down by the pumps. Transients, maybe.
But I'm tucking that diagram away too. Who knows when somebody'll need it!
Thanks!

In reading that schematic, it looks to me like, when the key is in the start position, the power goes thru the diode, meaning that the fuel pumps get full battery voltage (minus a diode drop, which is either about .25 or .6 volts). When the key is released after the engine is started, the fuel pumps get power thru the .75ohm resistor, which effectively limits to total possible current, at 14v, to an absolute maximum of 19 amps (14v / .75 ohm = 19 amps, ohms law). In this way, even if there is a direct short to ground, wiring won't burn up somewhere down the line.
It's almost the same theory behind having an 'S' and an 'I' terminal on starter solenoids and a ballast resistory back in the days of the points type ignition. Full battery voltage while cranking ('cause the battery voltage is quite a bit lower while cranking) and reduced battery voltage thru the ballast while the engine is running.

JDG


Posted By: Grillmeister on 08/05/10 02:19pm

James85C wrote:

Took the dead fuel pump back to Advance last night. At first I thought the person working had misunderstood me since she brought out another fuel pump to replace mine. I then told her "no, I want to return it for a refund." I was then told that electrical parts can't be returned if they are used, but she did offer me a full refund in store credit. Since I plan to shop there in the future, I figured this was better than getting another crappy fuel pump.

I think long-term, I'm going to add another Purolator-Facet pump to the rear tank, and just have it dump into the front tank. However, that will be a little dangerous as the rear tank is bigger than the front, so I could theoretically overfill the front one. Perhaps I'll swap it over to have the engine run off the rear tank, and plumb the front tank to pour into the rear. I just want to avoid using the tank selector valve if possible, as I don't really trust it.

James,
Don't forget the fuel pick up for the generator, it probably only goes to one tank and usually if the tank is below 1/4 the genny will not run. Mine leaves about ten gallons in the stock tank when the fuel is below the pick up tube. This is assuming you have a genny.


Posted By: James85C on 08/06/10 10:15am

Very good point about the generator, I do have one, and it does run off the front (smaller) tank. Dang it. I guess I will use the rear tank as a refill tank, and just be smart about only filling the front tank to ~3/4 full while traveling.

What I do need is a way to monitor the fuel level of both tanks while driving. I guess if I re-wire the front pump to run with the engine, flipping the dash switch will only change my fuel gauge. Genius!

Drove the RV to work today (about 20 miles), just to put on a few miles and see how she's running. So far, fantastic. Nothing like all the questions when you walk in "why did you drive your RV today??" I just said "why not??" Positively gorgeous outside today here in Chicago, and the weekend is supposed to be the same. I wish we were going camping this weekend!


Posted By: Grillmeister on 08/06/10 11:03am

I try to drive mine to work at least twice a month keep everything going.


Posted By: James85C on 08/11/10 02:48pm

Installed my "primer" button yesterday, that should make cold starts much easier in the future. I actually started going under the hood and manually jumping the blue wire before each cold start. Fired up so much easier, and I could actually hear fuel flowing to the carb.

As for tank #2, I got under there and took a look on how I would connect the rear tank to the front tank, and came up with nothing. So I might go back to a stock setup, using the tank selector valve. It seemed to work ok before, at least during the short time I was running off the rear tank.

RV is getting some use this weekend, just sadly not by me. A friend of mine is taking it to a Jimmy Buffet concert. I guess for $200, the venue allows overnight RV parking. He figures it's well worth it, having the RV for tailgating (he's getting there 11 hours before the show starts), then passing out afterward. I'm jealous, but at least someone is getting some use out of my RV!


Posted By: Grillmeister on 08/11/10 03:28pm

James85C wrote:

Installed my "primer" button yesterday, that should make cold starts much easier in the future. I actually started going under the hood and manually jumping the blue wire before each cold start. Fired up so much easier, and I could actually hear fuel flowing to the carb.

As for tank #2, I got under there and took a look on how I would connect the rear tank to the front tank, and came up with nothing. So I might go back to a stock setup, using the tank selector valve. It seemed to work ok before, at least during the short time I was running off the rear tank.

RV is getting some use this weekend, just sadly not by me. A friend of mine is taking it to a Jimmy Buffet concert. I guess for $200, the venue allows overnight RV parking. He figures it's well worth it, having the RV for tailgating (he's getting there 11 hours before the show starts), then passing out afterward. I'm jealous, but at least someone is getting some use out of my RV!
$200!!! WOW, the last one I went to charged $40. Oh well, hope he has fun, $200 is much better than a 502.


Posted By: James85C on 08/12/10 07:38am

Yep, he figures it's a cost save in the end, and the best tailgating will probably happen in the RV section. I'm tempted to meet him up there just for some tailgating, but then I need to get myself home... dang it! Maybe I'll just come later, and crash in the RV during the concert! Or maybe I'll be at home with a long honey-do list. That sounds more likely.


Posted By: Grillmeister on 08/16/10 10:56am

Well, did the MH make it back in one piece?


Posted By: James85C on 08/17/10 02:56pm

Haha, funny you ask! My friend tried to move the RV into a different spot as they were trying to sleep (RV next to them running their generator, adding noise and exhaust to the inside of mine with the windows open), and he managed to back into someone's slide-out. No major damage to either RV, and he pretty much screwed mine back together before bringing it back. All he did was loosen the corner trim piece, and now there's a gap similar to the other side. Sadly, that corner was totally sealed and perfect, now it's screwed up too. Ah well, I need to figure out how to fix the opposite side, I guess I'll apply my fix to both sides.

I knew some day she'd run into something, but I at least figured I'd be the one to do it. Ah well, this event did absolutely nothing to the overall look of the RV, so I don't care. I'll have to snap a few pics later. Not much to see really.


Posted By: James85C on 08/17/10 02:58pm

My wife, however, who wasn't a big fan of us loaning it out in the first place (even to someone we totally trusted) decided that was the first and last time we'll be doing that. I am in complete agreement. Just glad the RV is nothing too special, and that she had zero mechanical problems during the ~80 mile trek to the concert.


Posted By: Grillmeister on 08/17/10 03:17pm

James85C wrote:

My wife, however, who wasn't a big fan of us loaning it out in the first place (even to someone we totally trusted) decided that was the first and last time we'll be doing that. I am in complete agreement. Just glad the RV is nothing too special, and that she had zero mechanical problems during the ~80 mile trek to the concert.

Well the no problems part is good news. No, I couldn't loan mine out either.
It's my baby
My co-workers lovingly refer to my rig as the 100,000 dollar RV that is worth $2500


Posted By: James85C on 08/18/10 12:03pm

Guess I learned my lesson, and the damage to my rig was essentially nothing. Hopefully the person he hit is being cooperative, letting him just pay cash for the incident.

I'm thinking for sealing up my rear corners, I'll drill clear through the wall to the interior, and have nuts and bolts holding some new corner trim on. According to my friend who was attempting to screw the gap back together, "the wood inside the fiberglass is essentially dust." Well that just makes me more excited that you cracked it open!

She might not be pretty or new, but she still gets the job done. I guess I'll now start considering mine a $100k / $2500 RV. I guess I just thought to myself "well, I can't use my RV for at least another month, may as well let a friend enjoy it rather than just have it sit in the storage lot." Again, at least I know she ran well with the latest fuel pump, and he ended up running the generator all night to have the AC on once he gave up on trying to move it.


Posted By: James85C on 09/01/10 03:37pm

Never did add any pics of the "damage." Here is the newly opened-up corner:



which now matches the even more split-open corner on the other side:



Ah well. Like I said, no effect on her overall awesome-ness.


Posted By: Grillmeister on 09/02/10 08:30am

OUCH!!!!


Posted By: James85C on 09/08/10 09:28am

Could be worse. I'll figure out a "solution" to seal it up some time soon. Definitely before winter.

Hmmm, can't remember the last time I drove the old girl. I guess the day after the concert. I should take her for a drive soon. I'd love to go camping this month now that it has cooled off, just not sure if it'll happen. Been quite busy getting ready for baby #1, camping has sorta been a low priority, sadly.


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