Open Roads Forum

Print  |  Close

Topic: 500 lbs overweight

Posted By: jshul on 08/28/11 02:21pm

Packed and ready to roll my weights are as follows:

2500 HD GVWR = 9200 lbs

empty weight is 7200 lbs 4000 lbs front axle 3200 lbs rear axle

loaded weight is 9700 lbs. 4200 lbs front axle 5500 lbs rear axle
(this includes fuel, tools, passengers, and 2500 lbs. of hitch weight)


I can get rid of the 500 lbs overage by:
a. remove class 5 hitch 180 lbs.
b. removing spare tire and wheel 75 lbs.
c. moving tools to rear of trailer (80 lbs)
d. emptying most of water from tank (30 gal @240 lbs)


This will put me under all recommended weights.


My question...am I that much better off towing a trailer at or near the weight limit than one that is 500 lbs over?

By the way, I have increased tire and wheel capacity by adding 265's with 7 inch wheels.


2011 Carriage Cameo 34sb3
2005 GMC Sierra Duramax/Allison
Crew Cab/4x4


Posted By: ken burke on 08/28/11 02:35pm

jshul wrote:

Packed and ready to roll my weights are as follows:

2500 HD GVWR = 9200 lbs

empty weight is 7200 lbs 4000 lbs front axle 3200 lbs rear axle

loaded weight is 9700 lbs. 4200 lbs front axle 5500 lbs rear axle
(this includes fuel, tools, passengers, and 2500 lbs. of hitch weight)


I can get rid of the 500 lbs overage by:
a. remove class 5 hitch 180 lbs.
b. removing spare tire and wheel 75 lbs.
c. moving tools to rear of trailer (80 lbs)
d. emptying most of water from tank (30 gal @240 lbs)


This will put me under all recommended weights.


My question...am I that much better off towing a trailer at or near the weight limit than one that is 500 lbs over?

By the way, I have increased tire and wheel capacity by adding 265's with 7 inch wheels.


Verify that your truck's GVWR is really only 9200#s. Get rid of the water. If you can, move******to rear of 5th wheel. Most of the people on this forum will say your truck will handle the extra weight.

just my opinion.


2011 Ford F-350 6.7 diesel, Crew Cab, LB, SRW, 4X4, White
Cedar Creek 34SB, 37 feet 5th wheel, Reese 20K Hitch
"So many questions, so little time."


Posted By: Dave H M on 08/28/11 02:35pm

cook the book and see what percentage you are over the sticker. Me I would not be overweight at those figures.

Again, you got to do what is comfortable. Whoah take cover I hear the dually boys bearing down.


Posted By: DrBaker on 08/28/11 02:37pm

I assume you chose a 7 inch wheel that was capable of supporting the same weight as the tire. ??

If yes, you would be 1 leaf spring away from having the exact same components as the 3500 model which I believe has 700 lb more payload capacity.

While you would be over the weights recommended by the manufacturer for your truck you would be under the weight that the manufacturer recommends for a similarly equipped truck (if you added the leaf).

My choice would be to upgrade the truck to be more capable, but still remove the excess weight to be within manufacturer specs. I prefer to be more capable than needed and avoid an overload whenever possible.


2011 Chevy 2500HD CC/SB 4x4 Victory Red
2003 Crossroads Cruiser CF27RL
Champion Screamer, Reese 16k, and a Blue Status Symbol


Posted By: houstonstroker on 08/28/11 02:41pm

How are your axle ratings? If under both axle ratings of your truck, I would not worry too much and go camping. My 02 cents.


TV 2002 Ford F-250 Powerstroke 4WD Crew Cab
5th Wheel 2009 KZ Spree 305BH



Posted By: kaydeejay on 08/28/11 02:47pm

With my first fiver, before I fully understood pin weights, I was similarly overloaded and I did NOT like the way the trailer pushed the truck around.
Hence a smaller lighter trailer!

There is no law against exceeding GVWR BUT you do open the door to civil litigation if you were ever at fault in an accident.

Then again, years ago I was involved in two cases where drivers were found guilty of negligence (one was criminal negligence) when involved in accidents.
One was at least 1000# over and the other more than 1500# over GVWR.
According to the lawyers, the overweight condition contributed significantly to the decision.

Your 500# is right where my alarm bells start to ring as a totally baseless, unfounded theoretical personal comfort level thresh-hold.
Get that weight down if you can.


Keith J.
1999 Sunnybrook 27RKFS Fiver.
2005 GMC Sierra 2500HD CC/SB/DA 2WD, LLY with LBZ air cleaner, 52 gal Titan tank, Bilsteins, Line-X, Westin steps, Prodigy, Retrax cover, 16K Superglide, 5th-Airborne pin-box, Multi-vex mirrors, TST TPMS.



Posted By: REWahoo on 08/28/11 03:33pm

I packed my trailer carefully to manage my pin weight at 18% and right at 2,000 lbs. This put me 60 lbs over the truck GVWR, but several hundred pounds under the axle and tire ratings. Unfortunately I needed more weight on the pin to prevent chucking (and a very unhappy DW).

My solution was to install a set of RAS and move some stuff from the back to the front of the trailer. A couple hundred pounds more on the pin makes a big difference in the ride and both DW and I are now very happy with how the rig performs.

I might try a couple of the adjustments you list (dump the water and move some weight to the rear of the trailer) and see how the rig handles. If you're happy with the results, go camping and enjoy.


2011 Silverado 2500HD LTZ Duramax 4x4
2007 Jayco Eagle 291RLTS


Posted By: wandering1 on 08/28/11 03:51pm

That really seems like a no brainer question to me.


HR



Posted By: SoCalDesertRider on 08/28/11 03:58pm

I would leave the hitch and spare tire where they are, empty the water tank and go camping.


05E350 6.0PSD
97F350DRW 7.3PSD 4x4 4.10 11' flatbed
98Ranger
69Bronco ATC250R CR500
20' BigTex flatbed carhauler
Callen Camper

92F350 CrewCab 4x4 351/C6
B&W TurnoverBall, Curt Magnum V
HD Springs Bilsteins,
285/75-16E BFG AT on 16x8 Stocktons
4.56's & LockRite rear


Posted By: 12th Man Fan on 08/28/11 02:47pm

If thats all you will ever carry I wouldn't worry about the 500 lbs. if you are not over on your rear axle rating.

I never carry more than a few gallons of water in my tanks unless it is for short distances. Doesn't make sense to carry any extra weight with the cost of fuel and in your case it's extra pounds you don't need.

Is your fresh water tank in front of your trailer axles? If not it will not reduce the weight on your truck if you empty it.


2009 GMC Duramax 4X4 DRW Crew

2005 31SKT Alumascape



Posted By: Skip N Barb Team on 08/28/11 02:53pm

Add some air bags and go camping. You now have a 1 ton truck. Brakes, axles, rear end, are all the same as the HD 3500......wait....wait...I hear 'em comin'

Skip


Posted By: alageezer on 08/28/11 03:14pm

My gvwr is 9k. This years trip I was 400 over on gvwr, but under tire, axle, and gcwr. Didn't bother me any, and don't think the truck new the difference.


2011 Bounder Classic


Posted By: jshul on 08/28/11 03:20pm

I am under both front and rear axle/tire ratings......

as posted on the door front axle/tire is rated at 4680 lbs (loaded mine is 4200)

as posted on the door the rear axle/tire is 6080 lbs (loaded mine is 5500)

these are with 245/75-16 tires.

By the way, I am 1,100 lbs below the posted GCVW of 22,000 lbs.


Posted By: KD4UPL on 08/28/11 03:21pm

500 pounds over?? Big deal. Go camping and enjoy it. Talk to some of the guys on the truck camper forum some time. They are hauling 10, 11, and 12,000 on a 2500 truck. Of course this is with airbags, upgraded tires and wheels (which you have) and other bolt-ons.
If you aren't over loading your tires or axle you will be fine.


Posted By: Chris on 08/28/11 04:03pm

So you are under the axle and tire ratings. Make sure you are licensed correctly for your weight if your state licenses tonage. If the rear is sagging, install air bags and go camping. If every 250/2500HD that is towing similar was on the side of the road, the highway would be littered with them. GVWR is a manufacturers warranty number, not a cast in concrete do not exceed number.

Chris

* This post was edited 01/16/12 01:25pm by Chris *


My Rig
2001.5 2500 STD CAB AUTO SLT 4x4, CTD 4:10's, Bomb'd to Tow
2005 Cardinal 29WBLX.


Posted By: Greentreena on 08/28/11 04:17pm

If I were you, I wouldn't sweat it. Just pack the water you'll need to get where you are going, ensure that you are packing what you need and go and have fun.

or you could tell the wife that she'll need to lose weight.... but I wouldn't do it


2008 Dodge Ram 3500 6.7 Mega Cab 4x4 SRW
Hijacker Auto Slide/ P3
2006 Triple E Topaz 310RBXL
Wife, 2 kids and Murphy the dog
Pictures


Posted By: ugeesta on 08/28/11 04:22pm

Thanks for asking my question. I have the exact same situation with my Puma Unleashed. Without the DW, extra gas, generator and food, my setup is 120 lbs under GVRW.

Not too worried about being so close to max on the truck.


2002 GMC Seirra 2500HD 8.1/Allison 4.10
2009 Honda Rancher 420AT w/PS
2007 Honda Rancher 420
1 wife & 5 cats
2011 Puma Unleashed 298FQU...Yamaha EF2800i

Forget San Francisco, I Left My Heart In Colorado


Posted By: Pete_k on 08/28/11 05:06pm

2004 2500HD Crew Cab 4x4 short bed with air bags and 19.5 wheels and tires. around 3500 lbs sitting in the bed of this truck and attached to the hitch on back 20ft boat in tow. Both my wife and I have no issues with it and have been on 3 day hauls with it. Running interstates and back roads.


This camper is 9ft in the floor with a 8ft slide-out Unit is over 16ft total and all of it is in the bed of the truck.



2005 Chevy Kodiak c5500 Cummins 5.9/Allison Trans
2012 Landmark Key Largo
2008 Lund 1825 Pro Guide Tiller, With a Evinrude 90 HP E-Tec
Live near Pickwick Dam and the Tn river


Posted By: mena661 on 08/28/11 05:18pm

SoCalDesertRider wrote:

I would leave the hitch and spare tire where they are, empty the water tank and go camping.
X2


2009 Newmar Canyon Star 3205, Ford F53 V10
Trojan L16 6V's 740 Amp-hours



Posted By: smithrjd on 08/28/11 05:21pm

I HAD a 2006 2500HD CC LB D/A it as well was rated a 9200#. The more telling item is the little sticker on the drivers door jamb. For mine it was 2501# I just bought a new truck because of that. Wanted to upgrade the 5th wheel. The old fiver was a HR Savoy which had a dry pin weight of 1550#. All of the trailers I was looking at had dry hitch weights over 2200#. My 2500HD weighted at 7185# with two people, hitch, and 3/4 tank. Doing the math it could not carry a 2200# dry pin weight. I will have to weight the new rig but I am sure loaded the pin weight is now closer to 3000# than the dry 2200#. Axle ratings, total weight, etc I was fine, but would have been over by at least 750# on the trucks gross. I have no doubt the truck would have pulled just fine, but I did not like knowing I would be taht far over the limits.


Posted By: Bushey562 on 08/28/11 05:58pm

The 80lb toolbox you want to move from the front of the trailer to the rear should make about a 160lb difference on the pin weight. Personally I would move the box dump some water and go.


Posted By: JIMNLIN on 08/28/11 07:41pm

jshul wrote:

I am under both front and rear axle/tire ratings......

as posted on the door front axle/tire is rated at 4680 lbs (loaded mine is 4200)

as posted on the door the rear axle/tire is 6080 lbs (loaded mine is 5500)

these are with 245/75-16 tires.

By the way, I am 1,100 lbs below the posted GCVW of 22,000 lbs.

IMO another well balanced combo. Stay under those axle/tire capacities and the truck will have no overweight issues.


"good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" ............ Will Rogers

'03 2500 QC Dodge/Cummins HO 3.73 6 speed manual Jacobs Westach
'97 Park Avanue 28' 5er 11200 two slides


Posted By: smithrjd on 08/28/11 08:00pm

Yes but are you below the trucks GVW? I doubt that. Will it pull the trailer? Yes it will. Your call as to what you feel comfortable with.


Posted By: bobsue2 on 08/29/11 05:01am

Quote:

How are your axle ratings? If under both axle ratings of your truck, I would not worry too much


Agree...I'm over on my payload capacity but well under axle/tire ratings...go have fun


2013 Key Largo
12 MegaCab 3500 DRW 4x4 18k Superslide 19.5 Michelin LDX-2


Posted By: Mesteve on 08/29/11 07:25am

I am tend to be over rear axle rating by 400 pounds, but within all other ratings. I have not noticed any problems, but wont until it brakes either. Howeve, I installed a set of air bags to level back up and some better tires and camping we will go


Posted By: WellShooter2 on 08/29/11 07:33am

500 lbs ???? Is this a joke, or what???


2008 2500HD D/A
2008 Keystone Challenger



Posted By: luvlabs on 08/29/11 05:58pm

Your weights may look good, but you are way over on your GVWR. I towed the trailer in my signature with a 2500HD for a couple of years and, like you, was over by about 500 lbs. I used Timbren's to take the sag out but, no matter what you do, you can't make a 1 ton truck out of it. After a near miss on the PA turnpike, we got the 3500HD in the signature.

You have discovered on your own the problem with 3/4 ton trucks and heavy fifth wheels. You can pull it - as you are under all of your weights except GVWR. In my opinion, that's the one that is most critical.

To tow that trailer safely, drain the water, be careful what you load in the front compartment, and move whatever you can to the rear basement. Do not remove your spare tire as you will need that.

I think you have two safer alternatives - a used 3500HD dually or a new 2012 2500HD


2014 Tiffin Phaeton 36GH
2012 Tiffin Allegro 32CA (traded)
2012 Honda Fit


Posted By: B W M on 08/29/11 07:17pm

I think a dually would be the safe way.A lot more stable in wind and crocked roads and down them their mountains. If you blow a rear tire you will have one more to safely get you off the road.


03-3500 laramie 4x4 6 speed 3.73 gear Jake brake triple piller isspro gauges 04-38ft fifth wheel Prowler AX-6 100gal in bed fuel tank volant air intake tool box Utra-Fab air deflector Tom Tom 720


Posted By: rsg63 on 08/29/11 07:59pm

I have a dually and would not have one if I was only towing your combo. You're fine. Maybe adjust weight where you can but don't leave your spare. Carry the water only if you need to, but seriously you are basically a 1-ton truck without the spring rate so go have fun and drive carefully!


08 Jayco Recon ZX 40' 3 axle T/H, dual A/C, 2006 RAM 3500 Cummins Dually, Pac Brake, Banks CAI, Monster Exhaust, 3.5" RAM intake, 51 Gal aux tank w/ tool box, 265/70/17 Goodyear Wrangler SA Pro Grades, Reese Sig series 24K hitch. DVD/NAV/Backup Camera.



Posted By: Too Young to Retire on 08/30/11 07:29am

Reading the thread title, I was going to recommend diet and exercise.


Chevy 3500HD Crewcab, SB, Diesel pulling a 36' Cameo



Posted By: jumper0407 on 08/30/11 04:39pm

Don't look just at the door jam for your front/rear capacities, look at your tires for their weight rating. They're likely rated differently than the OEM tires. They could be higher or lower.


Posted By: azpete on 08/31/11 08:36am

if every rv out on the road was weighed today, or tomorrow, i would bet 50 percent would be so over weight that they would not be allowed on the road.
make sure you keep your tire pressure up. cant say that strongly enough. i rely on a digital tire gauge, and a tread depth gauge to set the right pressure. that way, you can set individual tire pressure based on wear measurements. as the tire wears, check the center tread depth as opposed to the outside tread depth. adjust the pressure up or down to make the tire wear evenly. it takes a little effort, but you get a lot more mileage out of your tires that way.the door jamb pressure is for comfort ride only. in the last 15 years,i have driven over 750,000 miles on my rv's and my pickups, and this works for me.
if you are only 500 lbs over, go have fun.
next time, look for things you dont use, but you still take with you. like that extra hammer, or the 20 lb bg of charcoal. every ounce adds up. you would be surprised by all the small things you have in there that never see the light of day.

* This post was edited 08/31/11 08:45am by azpete *


Posted By: Dirtclods on 01/16/12 11:02am

You right on that -(look for things you don't use, but you still take with you. like that extra hammer) I'm usually loaded for bear when I take my dez trips and I forget I don't need half that******when I hit the beach with my surf boards and bicycles.


Posted By: wilber1 on 01/16/12 12:03pm

Bet there are a lot of people out there who wish they were only 500 lbs over their GVWR, don't know or don't want to know how much they are over. Aside from a very slim chance that you might get checked in some jurisdiction where GVWR is the legal limit, I wouldn't sweat it if you are within your axle and tire ratings.

From a practical point of view, I would be more concerned about being over my GCWR as that could have a real effect on things like transmission and brake life.


"Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice" WSC

2011 RAM 3500 SRW
2002 Glendale Titanium 28E33SB


Posted By: thomasmnile on 01/16/12 01:11pm

azpete wrote:

if every rv out on the road was weighed today, or tomorrow, i would bet 50 percent would be so over weight that they would not be allowed on the road.


Interesting thought. We attended the Tampa RV show last weekend. Attended a 1 hour presentation on RV weights and tires by the Recreational Vehicle Education & Safety Foundation. The speaker mentioned since the organization's founding in 1993, they have performed individual wheel position weigh-ins of over 30000 RV's of every type. 57% of the RV's weighed were found to be overweight by whatever measure you want to consider, GVWR, GCVWR, Axle weight, or tire capacity. That 57% overweight figure was fairly evenly distributed among all RV classes, though 5th wheels topped the list at 55% of the 5th wheels weighed were overweight. The speaker said that's probably due to the fact that 5th. wheels as a rule have pretty generous storage capacity and folks are inclined to take everything but the kitchen sink with them when they travel.

Food for thought. I have no opinion on the OP's post one way or the other.


Posted By: ol Bombero-JC on 01/16/12 01:25pm

Too Young to Retire wrote:

Reading the thread title, I was going to recommend diet and exercise.


X2..

~

Go camping and somewhere along the way - "weigh" your set-up..

~


Posted By: ausie607 on 01/16/12 01:45pm

jshul wrote:

Packed and ready to roll my weights are as follows:

2500 HD GVWR = 9200 lbs

empty weight is 7200 lbs 4000 lbs front axle 3200 lbs rear axle

loaded weight is 9700 lbs. 4200 lbs front axle 5500 lbs rear axle
(this includes fuel, tools, passengers, and 2500 lbs. of hitch weight)


I can get rid of the 500 lbs overage by:
a. remove class 5 hitch 180 lbs.
b. removing spare tire and wheel 75 lbs.
c. moving tools to rear of trailer (80 lbs)
d. emptying most of water from tank (30 gal @240 lbs)


This will put me under all recommended weights.


My question...am I that much better off towing a trailer at or near the weight limit than one that is 500 lbs over?

By the way, I have increased tire and wheel capacity by adding 265's with 7 inch wheels.


Your weights are the same as mine. I upgraded the suspension by adding a spring for additional 700lb on a 08 4x4 for $400 installed and re-torqued twice. Rear drops by 2" with 5er loaded. Tows, handles and stops great.

Quite frankly the extra spring was overkill.

* This post was edited 01/16/12 02:02pm by ausie607 *


Posted By: 4x4ord on 01/16/12 01:57pm

The only place that I know of that might even consider you overloaded is BC Canada. If they think you look overloaded (ie head lights pointing to the moon or tires flattened to the rim) and decide to weigh you they will determine (based on BC regulations) your load limit by your GVWR. Everywhere else that I know of goes by tire and axle ratings. I think for the most part the cops that enforce weight regulations are not concerned about our little pick ups.


2011 F350 SRW short box 4x4 CC 6.7 PS King Ranch
B&W TurnoverBall and Companion
2003 Citation Supreme 34 RLTS



Posted By: mowermech on 01/16/12 02:07pm

I weighed my rig once, after three years of full-timing.
I discovered it was WAY under the registered GVW of 14,000 lbs.
It was under all GAWRs.
It was under the GVWR of the truck and trailer.
BUT, it was 3,180 lbs OVER the truck GCWR.

500 lbs over weight? Personally, I would not worry about it! I exceeded that quite regularly back in my younger days when hauling fire wood. Nothing broke, nobody was injured, nobody died, and there were no accidents.
Hook it up and go. You should be all right, IMO.


CM1, USN (RET)
2002 Fleetwood Southwind 32V, Ford V10
Toad: '06 PT Cruiser, Kar Kaddy dolly
Toy (may become a toad): 2001 Dodge QC SWB, 360 Magnum, Auto, 4X4
"When seconds count, help is only minutes away!"


Posted By: B.O. Plenty on 01/16/12 02:28pm

My truck is overweight on the rear axle by more than that. It is under on everything else, including tires, rear axle itself and combined gross. If it was a Ford Or Chev, which incidently even has the exact same rear axle, it would not be a problem. I just can't figure out what the difference should be. To make matters worse Chrysler has upped the rear axle weight ratings on the 2012 versions with no other changes to the truck..I'm not loosing any sleep over it. Goes down the road just fine.

B.O.


2011 Big Country 3250TS...2010 Ram CC Laramie 4wd Cummins


Posted By: MTPockets1 on 01/16/12 02:48pm

Some folks say go, others say no - I vote no. Over is over. It only takes one time to get into a situation where you look back and say "only if" ... Whether you've travelled a million miles without mishap, or not... That one time....... in an overweight situation ..... kinda like DUI.... Is it legal 'til you get caught?


2012 3055RL Big Horn - Dexter 7000 lb axles - G rated LT Tires
MorRyde, Genset, Dual Panes, 2 A/C, Yeti Package
2013 F350 DRW 4x4 Crew King Ranch



Posted By: dubdub07 on 01/16/12 02:53pm

MTPockets1 wrote:

Some folks say go, others say no - I vote no. Over is over. It only takes one time to get into a situation where you look back and say "only if" ... Whether you've travelled a million miles without mishap, or not... That one time....... in an overweight situation ..... kinda like DUI.... Is it legal 'til you get caught?


That is a terrible analogy........


2013 Fleetwood Discovery 40G
TOADS: 2012 Jeep JK Rubicon, 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland
2013 RAM 1500 Longhorn (not a toad) American STEEL = American profits
RET USAF MSGT (26yrs) and still DoD ATC.
DW,DS,DD in the MH w/Westley the killer PUG!



Posted By: mowermech on 01/16/12 03:34pm

dubdub07 wrote:

MTPockets1 wrote:

Some folks say go, others say no - I vote no. Over is over. It only takes one time to get into a situation where you look back and say "only if" ... Whether you've travelled a million miles without mishap, or not... That one time....... in an overweight situation ..... kinda like DUI.... Is it legal 'til you get caught?


That is a terrible analogy........


I agree. But, a lot of people think that way.
I guess that is why I spent the extra few dollars and licensed my truck for 14,000 lbs GVW. That puts my LEGAL limit WAY above what I will ever load on that truck!
Yessir, it is CHEAP INSURANCE to avoid ever getting an overweight ticket!
I still wouldn't worry about 500 pounds over GVWR.


Posted By: 57 Panhead on 01/16/12 06:45pm

jshul wrote:

I am under both front and rear axle/tire ratings......

as posted on the door front axle/tire is rated at 4680 lbs (loaded mine is 4200)

as posted on the door the rear axle/tire is 6080 lbs (loaded mine is 5500)

these are with 245/75-16 tires.

By the way, I am 1,100 lbs below the posted GCVW of 22,000 lbs.



You are fine, don't stress over it, you are under axle and tire ratings so hook her up and go camping.

Steve


Retired Teamster
2012 Jayco Eagle Superlite 31.5RLTS
07 F250 PowerStroke
U Y B



Posted By: dubdub07 on 01/16/12 08:56pm

dubdub07 wrote:

MTPockets1 wrote:

Some folks say go, others say no - I vote no. Over is over. It only takes one time to get into a situation where you look back and say "only if" ... Whether you've travelled a million miles without mishap, or not... That one time....... in an overweight situation ..... kinda like DUI.... Is it legal 'til you get caught?


That is a terrible analogy........


And I say again......terrible analogy. For those who say "no", my 2500, with air bags at 25psi, is 500 over GVWR and tows fine. When I add more weight; water, food, gas in the genny, etc....it tows so much nicer when the pin is heavier. I would guess we are 800-900 over by then! And the bigger point is that it is in no way illegal.

A 2500 diesel is the same as a 3500 diesel.....except the spring pack. We say it over and over and over and over again.....yet there are those that disagree. Why? Don't know. What I am saying is fact, the "you can't do it" crowd is purely opinion, although the GVWR number is a fact, it just doesn't have the reality that the 3500 crowd thinks it does. There is a reason a 3500 is only $150-200 more than a 2500; cause that's all it takes to make it a 3500. The tire and axle ratings are the same.

DUI in America is an epidemic with thousands of innocent people killed every year at the hands of those that chose to drive impaired. Driving a little over GVWR is in no way a comparable analogy, especially to those of us who have dealt with death caused by DUI.

Bet there aren't even a dozen deaths a year in overweight RVs, and less than that in innocent bystanders. If I am involved in an accident it is HIGHLY unlikely that it will be caused by the extra 500lbs.


Posted By: Lantley on 01/16/12 09:51pm

what is the OK amount to be over. If 500# is acceptable. How about 600,700, 1000?
At what point is someone totally ignoring the parameters to the point of why even bother weighing in the first place. Are you counting on being able to feel the instability as you drive?
For me 500# over is getting to the critical point. Exceeding by much more than 700-1000 and you are just ignoring the parameters altogether.


07'Duramax dually,12'Open Range 399BHS
Hawkshead TPMS,Hensley BD3,Killerbee exhaust brake
Blue Ox Bedsaver,air bags w/compressor,Garmin RV760
Arvika pin box bike rack,Bak Flip G2 cover
5500 Onan LP,EMS-HW-50
14'Porta Bote w/8.0 Nissan
Vu Cube 2000,Splendide WD



Posted By: jerem0621 on 01/17/12 12:25am

But when a half tonner (like myself) talks of possible overloads, the forum blows up and the servers shut down from all the "upgrade your truck" posts.

This amazes me. Its OK to overload a 3/4 ton truck (almost encouraged) when you upgrade tires, and airbags, but it is not ok to overload a half ton (by a comparable percentage) with the same modifications (tires, airbags, etc)

I have read some half ton towers of fivers and TT get torched on this forum because they were pushing or slightly over their "payload".

So, tell me, what is an acceptable % that can be applied to TV's? I will not accept a 3/4 ton just has a different spring pack. A factory rating is a factory rating. (and no, i am not pecking a fight, I honestly want to know)

5% over? 10% over? 15% over? what is acceptable?

To the OP. Make sure your truck is in good condition, make sure your brakes are in good shape, watch maintenance, check bolts, etc. etc. Basically, do everything that any decent RV owner should do with their TV. Load the Trailer properly. etc. etc.

I personally wouldn't upgrade my truck in your shoes, unless you just want to. But the decision to knowingly go overloaded is a decision only you can make. But you have an advantage over about 53% or so of the RVing community (per the previous posts) is that you actually know you are overloaded.

Thanks!


Tent: Ozark Trails Cabin Tent (circa 1993)
Pack Mule: 2013 Kia Sorento

"It's Kind of Fun To Do The Impossible"
~Walt Disney~



Posted By: MTPockets1 on 01/17/12 05:19am

F150 - F250 - F350 - Dodge - Chevy - Ford - Doesn't matter. Whatever the rating is for the truck and your load doesn't matter. Over is Over - ONE mishap out of a million or One out of a hundred... To me doesn't matter. I just am not going to be invoved in that one time for gambling on being overweight on purpose. I just don't want to travel next to a rig overweight endangering my life and family. Call the analogy terrible. I call one stupid mistake when you had a choice, for any reason, terrible.


Posted By: Wills250psd on 01/17/12 05:45am

mena661 wrote:

SoCalDesertRider wrote:

I would leave the hitch and spare tire where they are, empty the water tank and go camping.
X2
X3


Posted By: ausie607 on 01/17/12 06:15am

MTPockets1 wrote:

F150 - F250 - F350 - Dodge - Chevy - Ford - Doesn't matter. Whatever the rating is for the truck and your load doesn't matter. Over is Over - ONE mishap out of a million or One out of a hundred... To me doesn't matter. I just am not going to be invoved in that one time for gambling on being overweight on purpose. I just don't want to travel next to a rig overweight endangering my life and family. Call the analogy terrible. I call one stupid mistake when you had a choice, for any reason, terrible.


My goodness,"the sky is falling". As dubdub07 pointed out, DUI is something that will endanger yours and your family's lives. I would be far more concerened with drivers not paying attention (distracted), eating burger, using GPS and other dashboard electronics like cameras , MP3s while driving. There is far more danger posed by fools letting their pets jump around in their laps while driving, and everyone here has seen that.

That 500# over the door sticker on a 3/4T GM is a non event. As mentioned earlier, I added a spring set and it was overkill. I doubt that the before adding the spring and after, total load deflection difference exceeded 1/4".


Posted By: mowermech on 01/17/12 08:00am

"I just don't want to travel next to a rig overweight endangering my life and family."

You do it every day, and don't even know it!
Those overweight rigs aren't just trucks, either. There are a lot of sedans and SUVs out there that are overweight!
You are a LOT safer next to an overweight vehicle than you are next to someone who is applying makeup, or shaving, or talking on the phone, or texting, or any number of other things.
IMO, even reading the roadside advertising is more dangerous than being overweight!
In fact, there is a better than even chance that YOUR DRIVING is a greater danger to your family than the vehicle next to you is!


Posted By: RoyB on 01/17/12 08:22am

Just have everyone hold a leg up off the floor (Just joking) - I'd look at water levels and much of what was brought up above. Go ahead and make first trip and see how it does....

The additional leaf spring addition is a great idea to me...


My Posts are IMHO based on my experiences - PM me
Roy and Carolyn
RETIRED DOAF/DON/DOD/CONTR RADIO TECH (42yrs)
K9PHT (Since 1957) 146.52M
2010 F150, 5.4,3:73 Gears,SCab
2008 Starcraft 14RT EU2000i GEN
2005 Flagstaff 8528RESS
POPUP PHOTOs-Pg52



Posted By: Chris on 01/17/12 08:29am



You people are so silly. GVWR and GCWR are manufactures warranty numbers and have nothing to do with weight laws.

Federal bridge weight laws determine what can be on an axles and spacing of the axles etc. No pickup truck is going to exceed these standards.

With SRW pickups, the tires installed in most cases determines the RGAWR. Exceeding max tire ratings could result in an issues, both safety and legal.

Go out to a truck stop and talk to a few hotshot haulers, to learn what can be legally done with a pickup truck.

Washington State licensed and collects fees for 12K gross on my 2001.5 2500 Dodge 4x4 std cab. I can be up to that weight in any of the 50 states without an issue, as long as I am within the tire rates and axle ratings.

Just in my little area of this 600+ site RV Resort are 6-8 2500/250 pickups that showed up with 36-40 fifth wheels with 4 or 5 slides. Most are GM's with 9200 GVWR, and most likely where north of 10K on the truck going down the highway. So a taller spacer or one most leaf in a spring addes 800 or 900 lbs more capacity to the trucks warranty?

Chris

* This post was last edited 01/17/12 08:58pm by an administrator/moderator *


Posted By: MTPockets1 on 01/17/12 08:45am

These are all great comments... and the purpose of forums. Different opinions shared for each to form there own analysis. I learn from all this and hope others do as well. What I say is "opinion" - with an occasional fact thrown in. Fact is, I agree there are lots of overweight vehicles out there - doesn't make it O.K. or safe for me to go there too. As others have said - go with what you feel is right and be happy. That's where I am.


Posted By: JIMNLIN on 01/17/12 08:45am

Good grief. Looks like this thread was brought back from the long dead. Guess the dead horse needed 'nother floggin'.
The OP most likely is out enjoying his truck and trailer while the silly analogies/opinions/comments get even sillier.

Here's mine to the OP.
Go camping and continue to enjoy your combo that is under all legal weight limits anywhere.


Posted By: dubdub07 on 01/17/12 08:57am

Let's throw in some common sense as well. Legally, you are ok exceeding GVWR. Those that get pulled over are GROSSLY overweight and are ticketed for unsafe load. I would bet that you couldn't look at a TT or FW being pulled down the road and tell if it is overweight or not; which I am sure a lot are. How about the Suburban pulling a 10,500lb TT and 10 people down the road? Wouldn't get a second look from a trooper.....

500# ain't nothing. Those that say it is know very little about the mechanics involved. The Big 3 raise their GVWR numbers from model year to model year without making a single change to the truck. At least some of us put airbags on! You need to know your truck, piece by piece, to make an informed decision. You look at the total weight and pin weight then go down the list; tires? Check. Axle? Check. Brakes? Check. Engine and tranny? Check. And most of all, take your rig to the scales and KNOW your weights exactly. The HD trucks are amazing, but it is still important to know how heavy you are....all the time. It is a progressive power curve as well! We never talk about the dually 3500s out there that are WAY over weight. If you lose control or have a brake issue with 26,000+lbs going down 7% I can assure you that you are NEVER going to regain control where my 19,500lbs is at least 6500lbs less weight to slow down with almost the SAME truck! Pure physics! All the HD truck are 8-9000lbs! So the trailers less than 10k are even easier for an 8000lb truck to stop. Putting so much importance on GVWR without knowing the real numbers is not smart. If you pull heavy you should always know your numbers, regardless of what truck you have.

So, looking at these HUGE numbers, how much affect do you think 500lbs really has?


Posted By: MTPockets1 on 01/17/12 09:59am

Did a search on the internet "Overweight RV trailer"

Here are pieces from some of the articles. For what it's worth. and FYI - Not my words, just passing it on. Some intersting comments regarding the subject, legality, etc.

Is Your RV Overloaded?
Did you know that driving or towing an overloaded rig is a leading cause of RV accidents? Even a slight overload or unequal weight distribution can seriously restrict braking and steering, dramatically increase fuel consumption, and cause sudden blowouts or breakdowns. An overweight RV also creates the danger of early failure in your rig's tires, brakes, wheels, drive train and other components.
If any of these RV weight problems sound familiar to you, you're not alone. Disturbing statistics, compiled by RV safety expert John Anderson during rally weighing exercises, show that nearly two-thirds of all the RVs weighed exceed one or more of their load ratings
Mechanical Consequences of Overweight
I do not for a moment suggest exceeding a GVM (not least because that is illegal, but also because inciting someone to do something illegal is often more illegal than actually doing it). The engineering reality however is that there is little risk of mechanical failure if a vehicle is overloaded by two or three per cent, but this does not mean that even minor overloading is safe.

As overload increases, braking performance progressively suffers, and especially resistance to brake fade. Tyres may suffer impact fractures; springs and shock absorbers are less effective and require earlier replacement; cornering is less predictable, and eventually dangerous; there is an increasing probability of spring breakage. Your insurance policy may well be voided in the event of an accident that can be attributed to overweight (or be voided simply because the RV is overweight).
"Despite draconian stories that I suspect are urban myths, you are unlikely to have major hassles over minor overloading (a per cent or so) simply because no weighing scale has 100% repeatability."
Possible Legal Consequences
Despite draconian stories that I suspect are urban myths, you are unlikely to have major hassles over minor overloading (a per cent or so) simply because no weighing scale has 100% repeatability. If an RV were to be exactly at its GVM there is a 50/50 chance that it will register as overweight.

Based on previews of possible future legislation and off the record discussions, it seems unlikely that any action (except a probable formal warning to fix it) would be taken over an excess of less than 5%. If the vehicle is overweight by more than that, but not more than 10%, the most likely outcome is that you will be allowed to drive it to a ‘nominated destination’- where you must fix the problem. You may also be formally warned, or served with an infringement notice, but you are unlikely to have to shed excess weight there and then.

Things are likely to get more immediately serious if the vehicle is more than 10% but less than 20% overweight. You may still be allowed to proceed to, or be escorted to, a nominated destination (but the choice of nominated destination is likely to be very limited). You will probably be fined (the maximum in most parts of Australia is about $3000).

If the vehicle is more than 20% overweight (and I know of one home-constructed motorhome that weighs close to twice its GVM), then you are likely to be in serious trouble. And with respect, rightly so.
Overweight Vehicles & Underinflated Tires: A GROWING PROBLEM
How overweight ARE our vehicles?

Overloading an RV, mini-bus, light truck, van or ambulance, or running on underinflated tires, is not just hard on the vehicle – it could cause your tires to fail. Tires and axles are designed to handle only so much weight. Exceeding it puts a strain on the whole system. Overloading and underinflation are both unsafe, send operating and repair costs sky-high and can cause unexpected downtime. Don’t let an overweight vehicle or underinflated tire spoil your trip – or worse


Posted By: jerem0621 on 01/17/12 10:53am

I think that bad hitch set up and blown out tires have a lot more to do with RV accidents. Of course the tires are load related. But as a TT owner I understand that the hitch set up on a TT is more finicky than a fiver.

Overloaded is overloaded but every time the combo goes over a major bump I am sure that the forces involved probably overload something. All be it only for a brief moment.

I do agree that distracted driving is much more dangerous than a slightly overloaded tv and trailer chugging along at 55-60 with both eyes on the road and both hands on the wheel. B

Thanks.


Posted By: sirdrakejr on 01/17/12 10:54am

jerem0621,
The biggest difference I can see between a 1/2T truck and the 3/4T & 1T trucks is that the 1/2T engine and running gear is usually not up to towing a heavier trailer. A 3/4T and 1T generally SHARE the engine and running gear and their GCWR is the usually same. The limit for all trucks generally is due to their CARRYING capacity. You CAN beef up a 1/2T is you want but the engine is still the limiter. You can beef up the 3/4T CARRYING capacity and it appears to then match the 1T for specs. So the choice at 1/2T is limited where the choice with a 3/4T is not limited as much. THAT is the difference I see between the lighter 1/2T and the other two.

Frank


2011 Palomino Maverick 1000SLLB on a 2004 Dodge Quadcab CTD Ram3500 SRW long bed equipped with Timbren springs, Stable Load bump stops, Rickson 19.5" wheels/"G" range tires and a Helwig "Big Wig" rear anti sway bar.



Posted By: mowermech on 01/17/12 11:05am

A couple of questions come immediately to mind:
What is "GVM"?
The excerpts refer to insurance being voided for being overweight. It has been asked many times, and not answered to the best of my knowledge, so I will ask it again: Can anybody give a factual example, from personal experience, of an insurance policy being voided for ANY traffic infraction?

I don't know of any state where GCWR is a legally enforceable number.
GVW, yes, that is legally enforced. That is why my truck is registered for 14,000 GVW. I don't think I will ever exceed that weight!
When weighed, with the fifth wheel hooked up and everything loaded, my rig was UNDER all ratings EXCEPT GCWR, and WAY under the allowed GVW.
It was 3,180 lbs OVER GCWR. If it had been the last year of the second generation Dodge, it would probably have been UNDER GCWR! What's the difference in trucks? Not much!
Except the numbers!


Posted By: Chris on 01/17/12 11:33am

As I posted earlier, Washington State does not give rip about GVWR or GCWR. Pickup must be licensed for tonage. They take the tare weight times 1.5 and round up to the next even K. So my 2500 got a 12k tag.

People pass rumors of Canadian Provides enforcing GVWR, however no one has ever provide a picture of a ticket. Jimnlin has posted on this suject a few times and linked to the actual Canadian site that has similar rules as the US bridge weight laws in the US. Chris


Posted By: wilber1 on 01/17/12 11:37am

The question for me and for many others I would think is would being 500 Lbs over my truck GVWR be enough to make me go out and spend a lot of money on a larger new truck or force me into a smaller trailer. As long as I was within my axle and tire ratings, for me, the answer would be no. I would probably try to shed a little weight in the back of the pickup and forward of the trailer axles and take whatever measures I might have to if the truck didn't sit level, airbags, extra springs etc.

Despite the fact it is not a legal limit, I would be more concerned about being over my GCWR than being a little over my truck GVWR when it comes to mechanical stress on the truck and safety. 3/4 tons towing 5th wheels can easily be over their truck GVWR but under their GCWR, but when they have to maneuver or stop, it is the gross combined weight that is in play, not just the trucks gross weight.


Posted By: fly-boy on 01/17/12 04:12pm

So if we have established the difference between a 3/4 and 1 ton is the spring pack then adding air bags or installing a one ton spring pack would effectively make a 3/4 ton a one ton right?


2012 GMC 3500 Denali Duramax 4x4
2009 WW HKD with a big garage
A few toys



Posted By: sirdrakejr on 01/18/12 03:49pm

This one has gone on long enough. Closed.
Frank


Posted By: Chris on 01/17/12 12:17pm

wilber1 wrote:

The question for me and for many others I would think is would being 500 Lbs over my truck GVWR be enough to make me go out and spend a lot of money on a larger new truck or force me into a smaller trailer. As long as I was within my axle and tire ratings, for me, the answer would be no. I would probably try to shed a little weight in the back of the pickup and forward of the trailer axles and take whatever measures I might have to if the truck didn't sit level, airbags, extra springs etc.

Despite the fact it is not a legal limit, I would be more concerned about being over my GCWR than being a little over my truck GVWR when it comes to mechanical stress on the truck and safety. 3/4 tons towing 5th wheels can easily be over their truck GVWR but under their GCWR, but when they have to maneuver or stop, it is the gross combined weight that is in play, not just the trucks gross weight.


So is a 3500srw going to stop better with the same brakes as the 2500hd with only different rear seprings? Chris


Posted By: RobertRyan on 01/17/12 01:27pm

mowermech wrote:

What is "GVM"

Obviously an Australian article; GVM(Gross Vehicle Mass)=GVWR. If you see some English websites they have GTW= Gross Train Weight or GCVWR


Posted By: ausie607 on 01/17/12 01:32pm

Tx RobertRyan. Does that term apply to metric stuff?


Posted By: DSteiner51 on 01/17/12 01:50pm

The article is nothing more then another opinion using half facts to support a bias. Fact: overload by 10% and the crash force increases by the same amount whereas an increase in speed increases crash force far more then the % overspeed.

Insurance won't cover if overloaded is as dumb as claiming insurance won't cover if speeding, running a red light, failure to stop at stop sign, etc. Speed is much more dangerous yet we have weight police who will defend their speeding habits using the biggest farces (such as getting run over) to justify there bias . I've come to the conclusion from reading these threads most weight police are overloaded as soon as they slide behind the wheel of a vehicle even if the vehicle is out of fuel.

For safety reasons I would MUCH rather be 10% over GVWR with a 5th wheel which has naturally stable traits then at or under GVWR with a travel trailer needing bandaids such as WDH and sway controls.


D. Steiner
The sooner I fall behind, the more time I have to catch up.



Posted By: Jayco-noslide on 01/17/12 02:03pm

Tough call. I would much prefer to only be towing 80%-90% of what the truck is rated to pull so as to have a "margin of error" to be safer, extend the life of the trans. , etc. However, if I already have the truck and trailer; it's not that easy to just go out and replace the truck and it's always expensive to trade. So I would probably try it out, see how the truck handles the load, how does it feel stopping, does the back end squat down, etc.


Jayco-noslide


Posted By: 45Ricochet on 01/17/12 02:51pm

dubdub07 wrote:


A 2500 diesel is the same as a 3500 diesel.....except the spring pack.



LOL
Those aren't to important I take it.




06 Ram 3500 CC LB Laramie 4x4 Dually 5.9 Cummins Smarty Jr 48RE Jacobs brake
GVWR 12,200 RAWR 9350
06 Grand Junction 34' High profile 15500 GVWR 3200 pin Mor/ryde 5500 Onan genny Dual A/C Wet bolts
27' Hallett 502, 500HP



Posted By: NC Hauler on 01/17/12 03:04pm

rick83864 wrote:

dubdub07 wrote:


A 2500 diesel is the same as a 3500 diesel.....except the spring pack.



LOL
Those aren't to important I take it.




So then....a 3500SRW is probably the same as a dually.......except for, fill in all the blanks


If it's only the spring pack...then there IS a difference, and between a 2500 HD, (using the old figures), GVWR of the 2500HD was 9200#...the 3500 SRW was 9900#...so, that IS a difference no matter how you cut, slice or dice it....probably the reason that they are badged differently...

...................oh wait, what about air bags..............................................................


Jim & Kathy
2013 Dodge 3500DRW Longhorn 4X4/CC/LB/Aisin tranny/4:10/Cummins: 385HP/850TQ
06 HR Presidential Suite 37RLQ/SK3005 Satellite/Splendide XC2100/4slide/dual pane windows
2014 Jeep Compass Ltd 4X4
Boxers;Buddy& Sheba II
USAF 71-75 Nam Vet


Posted By: DSteiner51 on 01/17/12 03:29pm

NC Hauler wrote:

rick83864 wrote:

dubdub07 wrote:


A 2500 diesel is the same as a 3500 diesel.....except the spring pack.



LOL
Those aren't to important I take it.




So then....a 3500SRW is probably the same as a dually.......except for, fill in all the blanks


If it's only the spring pack...then there IS a difference, and between a 2500 HD, (using the old figures), GVWR of the 2500HD was 9200#...the 3500 SRW was 9900#...so, that IS a difference no matter how you cut, slice or dice it....probably the reason that they are badged differently...

...................oh wait, what about air bags..............................................................


This is NOT a truck spring pack. This is a trailer spring pack which I'm surprised isn't more common seeing all the trailers that people drag thru potholes off the sides of the roads. I'm amazed not more tires exploding and springs breaking with what I see.


Posted By: Chris on 01/17/12 04:08pm

rick83864 wrote:

dubdub07 wrote:


A 2500 diesel is the same as a 3500 diesel.....except the spring pack.



LOL
Those aren't to important I take it.



What does a trailer spring pack have to do with a truck spring pack. Apple's to Orange's! Chris


Posted By: NC Hauler on 01/17/12 04:33pm

fly-boy wrote:

So if we have established the difference between a 3/4 and 1 ton is the spring pack then adding air bags or installing a one ton spring pack would effectively make a 3/4 ton a one ton right?


yeah, and a 1/2 ton is the same as a 3/4 except for , ........(fill in the blank).....


To the other poster, I knew what the picture was, I was making a comment on the comparisons of 3/4 to 1 ton SRW, etc.....


Posted By: DSteiner51 on 01/17/12 05:02pm

NC Hauler wrote:

fly-boy wrote:

So if we have established the difference between a 3/4 and 1 ton is the spring pack then adding air bags or installing a one ton spring pack would effectively make a 3/4 ton a one ton right?


yeah, and a 1/2 ton is the same as a 3/4 except for , ........(fill in the blank).....


To the other poster, I knew what the picture was, I was making a comment on the comparisons of 3/4 to 1 ton SRW, etc.....


Then the picture had nothing to do with the comparison unless you were trying to deceive? 3/4 and 1 ton are the same truck in many instances except a leaf in the spring pack so how does a trailer axle/spring pack enter into the picture?


Posted By: ausie607 on 01/17/12 05:06pm

rick83864 wrote:

dubdub07 wrote:


A 2500 diesel is the same as a 3500 diesel.....except the spring pack.



LOL
Those aren't to important I take it.



Gosh Rick, I think you've been using that sock you always talk about for unnatural purposes. The picture is trailer springs.


Posted By: NC Hauler on 01/17/12 05:24pm

DSteiner51 wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:

fly-boy wrote:

So if we have established the difference between a 3/4 and 1 ton is the spring pack then adding air bags or installing a one ton spring pack would effectively make a 3/4 ton a one ton right?


yeah, and a 1/2 ton is the same as a 3/4 except for , ........(fill in the blank).....


To the other poster, I knew what the picture was, I was making a comment on the comparisons of 3/4 to 1 ton SRW, etc.....


Then the picture had nothing to do with the comparison unless you were trying to deceive? 3/4 and 1 ton are the same truck in many instances except a leaf in the spring pack so how does a trailer axle/spring pack enter into the picture?


I copied Ricks post for what he had written.......the picture was in there...

I don't see how anyone can deceive anyone on any post when all one has to do, on their own, is some research and use some simple math.......

again,,,,you stated the same thing...that a 3/4 and 1 ton are the same "EXCEPT" whatever, thus..NOT making them the same if there is an "except" in there..

Have no clue why Rick posted what Rick posted...re-read MY post...I was posting on the statement that a 3/4 is the the same as a 1 ton SRW except.....THOUGH they are badged differently and almost always have different GVWR's....but believe what you want.....


Posted By: sirdrakejr on 01/17/12 06:41pm

Going off the rails...............


Posted By: 45Ricochet on 01/17/12 06:49pm

Rick merely posted a photo of a typical "leaf spring" which broke. Lets get serious here, a leaf spring is a leaf spring. Over load what the manufacture's "engineers" (lots of engineer's, err want-to-be's here) suggest and things COULD fail.
Why is it some folks talk suspension and leave out one of the main components, the springs?
Whoever posted the 150/1500 question, your axle is also much weaker. But what the heck hitch up to the Grand Teton and have at it. I mean the F150 is ALMOST a F250. Only a spring, axle and brake difference.


Posted By: Allworth on 01/17/12 07:01pm

Some of the posters here seem to think that the manufacturer's engineers just pull load limit and other rating numbers out of a hat in order to make life difficult for Rvers.

They spend a lot of timer and money figuring out what is safe and what is too much for any particular truck.

You are betting that your seat-of-the-pants feeling is smarter than the manufacturer when you overload. Finding convoluted reasoning to justify your decision does not make it smart or safe.

There may be no such thing as too much truck; but there is certainly such a thing as too little.


Formerly posting as "littleblackdog"
Martha, Allen, & Blackjack
2006 Chevy 3500 D/A LB SRW, RVND 7710
2008 Titanium 30E35SA; EZ-Lube axles; wet bolts; spring hanger gussetts; BFG Commercial TAs
"Real Trucks Don't Have Sparkplugs"



Posted By: dubdub07 on 01/17/12 07:23pm

rick83864 wrote:

Rick merely posted a photo of a typical "leaf spring" which broke. Lets get serious here, a leaf spring is a leaf spring. Over load what the manufacture's "engineers" (lots of engineer's, err want-to-be's here) suggest and things COULD fail.
Why is it some folks talk suspension and leave out one of the main components, the springs?
Whoever posted the 150/1500 question, your axle is also much weaker. But what the heck hitch up to the Grand Teton and have at it. I mean the F150 is ALMOST a F250. Only a spring, axle and brake difference.


The sarcasm is choking, for sure. The 1/2 ton offerings are a totally different truck than the HDs. The whole point being and the many, many posts of trying to put their 1 ton on a pedestal is just nuts. The biggest difference in a 1 ton is the DRW option because you get four D rated tires allowing 8800 on the rear axle versus 6400 for two E rated tires. (which is IMO the weakest link in all of this as you should NEVER overload your tires) The DRW truck is even the same with a slightly different rear end (same insides) than the SRW trucks. The air bags are rated at 5000lbs, so why aren't they a viable option? Or adding a leaf spring? You couldn't make a 1/2 ton a 3/4 ton, but you can make a 2500 a 3500....because they are the same truck! It's not like trying to hook up a 15K FW to an F150, even with Ecoboost and try dragging it down the highway. It's like dealing with 3 inches of sag versus 2 inches. It's like only getting 6 years out of your truck versus 8. Unlike the 1/2 ton comparisons, which are ludicrous, the pure weight of a gooseneck trailer or FW would put fenders on tires.....has anyone been under a 3500 sitting next to a 2500? Go down to the lot this weekend and look. I did. Now look at a 1500 sitting next to them, get underneath, look at the vast difference. It is easy to post rhetoric without backing it up. If you are too lazy, just call the truck dealer of your choice and ask the service dept.....they will tell you!

Show me a broken leaf spring pack that was caused by a FW on a 2500 or a 3500 and I mean from the weight and not a flaw. If you break a spring pack on one of these HDs, you have done something! Also, explain how GVWR numbers go up when a model doesn't change from one year to another? That is just a magical increase. I don't think we are engineers, just informed. If someone asks and I go into great factual detail about the mechanics, the only counter I get is "overloaded is overloaded....don't do it". That just isn't a good argument. Base the argument on fact, not "just cuz". And I am not suggesting anything illegal either. Part of the facts is the law.

Now a gee whiz would be......what is the pressure required to break a 2500 spring pack versus a 3500 springs pack. That info would be nice....


Posted By: 45Ricochet on 01/17/12 07:57pm

I'll certainly not babble on here about spring packs on the various models as it has already been done on the TV side, if you care to investigate.
There were photos of members rear spring's and you might be surprised. The difference between the MC and QC dually was 4 leaf to 3 leaf. There is a thickness difference also involved. Also a difference between a SRW 3500 and 2500. I'm pretty sure a "layman" could not eye ball it, but a engineer certainly can scope one and give you their "educated" opinion.
Yearly gains in GVWR must have some reasoning behind them IMO. A simple call to the parts department will give you YOUR trucks correct spring, believe me they are not all the same.
Being legal doesn't hold up in civil court.
Lots of these


Posted By: mena661 on 01/17/12 08:30pm

rick83864 wrote:

Being legal doesn't hold up in civil court.
And you could be well within your weights and STILL be held liable in civil court. And no where on that site you quoted mentions being overweight. It DOES mention age though. Maybe we should have mandatory driving and medical exams for the elderly who wish to drive an RV. I'm willing to bet that would solve most RV related accidents.


Posted By: Lantley on 01/17/12 08:49pm

dubdub07 wrote:

rick83864 wrote:

Rick merely posted a photo of a typical "leaf spring" which broke. Lets get serious here, a leaf spring is a leaf spring. Over load what the manufacture's "engineers" (lots of engineer's, err want-to-be's here) suggest and things COULD fail.
Why is it some folks talk suspension and leave out one of the main components, the springs?
Whoever posted the 150/1500 question, your axle is also much weaker. But what the heck hitch up to the Grand Teton and have at it. I mean the F150 is ALMOST a F250. Only a spring, axle and brake difference.


The sarcasm is choking, for sure. The 1/2 ton offerings are a totally different truck than the HDs. The whole point being and the many, many posts of trying to put their 1 ton on a pedestal is just nuts. The biggest difference in a 1 ton is the DRW option because you get four D rated tires allowing 8800 on the rear axle versus 6400 for two E rated tires. (which is IMO the weakest link in all of this as you should NEVER overload your tires) The DRW truck is even the same with a slightly different rear end (same insides) than the SRW trucks. The air bags are rated at 5000lbs, so why aren't they a viable option? Or adding a leaf spring? You couldn't make a 1/2 ton a 3/4 ton, but you can make a 2500 a 3500....because they are the same truck! It's not like trying to hook up a 15K FW to an F150, even with Ecoboost and try dragging it down the highway. It's like dealing with 3 inches of sag versus 2 inches. It's like only getting 6 years out of your truck versus 8. Unlike the 1/2 ton comparisons, which are ludicrous, the pure weight of a gooseneck trailer or FW would put fenders on tires.....has anyone been under a 3500 sitting next to a 2500? Go down to the lot this weekend and look. I did. Now look at a 1500 sitting next to them, get underneath, look at the vast difference. It is easy to post rhetoric without backing it up. If you are too lazy, just call the truck dealer of your choice and ask the service dept.....they will tell you!

Show me a broken leaf spring pack that was caused by a FW on a 2500 or a 3500 and I mean from the weight and not a flaw. If you break a spring pack on one of these HDs, you have done something! Also, explain how GVWR numbers go up when a model doesn't change from one year to another? That is just a magical increase. I don't think we are engineers, just informed. If someone asks and I go into great factual detail about the mechanics, the only counter I get is "overloaded is overloaded....don't do it". That just isn't a good argument. Base the argument on fact, not "just cuz". And I am not suggesting anything illegal either. Part of the facts is the law.

Now a gee whiz would be......what is the pressure required to break a 2500 spring pack versus a 3500 springs pack. That info would be nice....

It can happen. I had a 2001 F-250 work truck that was simply loaded heavy. mainly with tools not a 5th wheel. Now this truck was loaded heavy 24/7 all of its life. It lasted 240K before I traded it in. Broke two springs during that time. An F-350 would have been a better choice. 700 pounds extra payload would have made a big difference.


Posted By: 45Ricochet on 01/17/12 09:49pm

mena661 wrote:

rick83864 wrote:

Being legal doesn't hold up in civil court.
And you could be well within your weights and STILL be held liable in civil court. And no where on that site you quoted mentions being overweight. It DOES mention age though. Maybe we should have mandatory driving and medical exams for the elderly who wish to drive an RV. I'm willing to bet that would solve most RV related accidents.


Maybe eye exams also
Copy and paste

Causes of Recreational Vehicle (RV) Accidents or Motor Home Accidents
Runaway Trailers
Inexperienced Driver
Overloading
Poorly balanced load
Rollover due to higher center of gravity
Driver fails to see a car in the RVs' large blind spot
Poorly calculated turns

Fourth section, fourth bullet.

Maybe member Kaydeejay (a retired engineer with GM) can weight in as to his testimony in a gross negligence case regarding a over weight vehicle.
Your right though, you can even get nailed for having your coffee to hot


Posted By: Lantley on 01/17/12 10:06pm

rick83864 wrote:

mena661 wrote:

rick83864 wrote:

Being legal doesn't hold up in civil court.
And you could be well within your weights and STILL be held liable in civil court. And no where on that site you quoted mentions being overweight. It DOES mention age though. Maybe we should have mandatory driving and medical exams for the elderly who wish to drive an RV. I'm willing to bet that would solve most RV related accidents.


Maybe eye exams also
Copy and paste

Causes of Recreational Vehicle (RV) Accidents or Motor Home Accidents
Runaway Trailers
Inexperienced Driver
Overloading
Poorly balanced load
Rollover due to higher center of gravity
Driver fails to see a car in the RVs' large blind spot
Poorly calculated turns

Fourth section, fourth bullet.

Maybe member Kaydeejay (a retired engineer with GM) can weight in as to his testimony in a gross negligence case regarding a over weight vehicle.
Your right though, you can even get nailed for having your coffee to hot

GVW GCWR are about liability not legality. Essentially the manufactures are saying if you operate the vehicle within the parameters the vehicle will perform safely. If you exceed these parameters we will not be held liable for the outcome.
The towing parameters are real whether you choose to adhere to them is your decision.
They are calculated with real physics equations and actual experiments. They are not made up with blindfolds and dart boards as some imply.
For those who think 500# is no big deal. What amount makes a big deal or are axle ratings all that matters?


Posted By: JIMNLIN on 01/18/12 07:35am

The broken spring was a poor analogy for the OP being 500 lbs over his GVWR. Now if the OP was 500 lbs over his truck 6084 RAWR then the picture would possible make sense. Springs are a part of the trucks FAWR/RAWR package not GVWR.

Looking in on a weight thread on a RV website especially RV.net is rather amusing when the civil liability card is played regarding the manufactures GVWR. Myth spreading comes to mind.


Posted By: fly-boy on 01/18/12 08:48am

NC Hauler wrote:

fly-boy wrote:

So if we have established the difference between a 3/4 and 1 ton is the spring pack then adding air bags or installing a one ton spring pack would effectively make a 3/4 ton a one ton right?


yeah, and a 1/2 ton is the same as a 3/4 except for , ........(fill in the blank).....


To the other poster, I knew what the picture was, I was making a comment on the comparisons of 3/4 to 1 ton SRW, etc.....


That is just obtuse thinking and/or intentionally misleading- A 1/2 ton truck is a completely different animal than an HD- different chassis, brakes, drive train...

My only point is that if you take a 3/4 ton truck and replace the rear spring pack with a 1-ton spring pack you have the exact same truck in many cases. That would mean a person could effectively and safely tow a higher weight load. In many cases this would save people thousands of dollars over the cost of buying a new truck- which might make the difference in some people being able to enjoy a new trailer or the trailer they really want. Let's remember- the more people out enjoying the roads and RV'ing the better for all of us!

But whatever- if you want to go on believing the mfg's sprinkle some sort of fairy dust on 1-ton trucks go ahead. Better yet- why don't you stop by your local dealer and ask them to list every difference between a 3/4 and 1-ton srw truck.


Posted By: ausie607 on 01/18/12 09:50am

rick83864 wrote:

I'll certainly not babble on here about spring packs on the various models as it has already been done on the TV side, if you care to investigate.
There were photos of members rear spring's and you might be surprised. The difference between the MC and QC dually was 4 leaf to 3 leaf. There is a thickness difference also involved. Also a difference between a SRW 3500 and 2500. I'm pretty sure a "layman" could not eye ball it, but a engineer certainly can scope one and give you their "educated" opinion.
Yearly gains in GVWR must have some reasoning behind them IMO. A simple call to the parts department will give you YOUR trucks correct spring, believe me they are not all the same.
Being legal doesn't hold up in civil court.
Lots of these



Lots of these
Wow, I'm not sure using a bottom feeding ambulance chasing shyster is the best source to get reliable information. I searched the quoted USDOT 2003 for "thousands of FATAL deaths associated with RV"? Could not find any statistics. What I did find that the 65-75 age group contributed to less than 6% of all accidents in US. Figures relating to speeding, DUI etc were even lower.

As such it would make sense that the same group makes reasonable choices when equipping, towing/driving RV s.


Posted By: dubdub07 on 01/18/12 09:59am

What is the part # for Fairy Dust?


Posted By: NC Hauler on 01/18/12 10:42am

My four rear tires are E rated. Fairy dust? Laughable at best, sad how some have to read between lines that don't exist. If you add a one ton leaf kit to a 3/4 ton truck, then it has capabilities of the one ton srw, but gvwr sticker didn't get changed. Doesn't matter though. Most everyone is going to buy and tow with what they want to. Don't let facts or eng. Data get in the way, they're just numbers anyway.


Posted By: 45Ricochet on 01/18/12 10:52am

fly-boy wrote:


My only point is that if you take a 3/4 ton truck and replace the rear spring pack with a 1-ton spring pack you have the exact same truck in many cases. That would mean a person could effectively and safely tow a higher weight load. In many cases this would save people thousands of dollars over the cost of buying a new truck- which might make the difference in some people being able to enjoy a new trailer or the trailer they really want.I agree totally, although the legal aspect didn't really change as the manufactures sticker is almost impossible to change. Much better chance in a civil proceeding. Let's remember- the more people out enjoying the roads and RV'ing the better for all of us! LOL I'm in the process of making reservation this month for July as the campgrounds we visit are pretty well booked up later. I guess that's a good thing.

But whatever- if you want to go on believing the mfg's sprinkle some sort of fairy dust on 1-ton trucks go ahead.Fairy dust part numbers




Posted By: Lantley on 01/18/12 11:00am

fly-boy wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:

fly-boy wrote:

So if we have established the difference between a 3/4 and 1 ton is the spring pack then adding air bags or installing a one ton spring pack would effectively make a 3/4 ton a one ton right?


yeah, and a 1/2 ton is the same as a 3/4 except for , ........(fill in the blank).....


To the other poster, I knew what the picture was, I was making a comment on the comparisons of 3/4 to 1 ton SRW, etc.....


That is just obtuse thinking and/or intentionally misleading- A 1/2 ton truck is a completely different animal than an HD- different chassis, brakes, drive train...

My only point is that if you take a 3/4 ton truck and replace the rear spring pack with a 1-ton spring pack you have the exact same truck in many cases. That would mean a person could effectively and safely tow a higher weight load. In many cases this would save people thousands of dollars over the cost of buying a new truck- which might make the difference in some people being able to enjoy a new trailer or the trailer they really want. Let's remember- the more people out enjoying the roads and RV'ing the better for all of us!

But whatever- if you want to go on believing the mfg's sprinkle some sort of fairy dust on 1-ton trucks go ahead. Better yet- why don't you stop by your local dealer and ask them to list every difference between a 3/4 and 1-ton srw truck.


That's fine but in the end it's all about the paper. That 3/4 ton truck will still be labeled by the manufacturer as a 3/4 ton truck. If liabilities issues occur the truck will still be considered a 3/4 ton regardless of the non certified modifications.

I agree your idea does have merit and maybe strengthens the truck, but in civil court it leaves room for doubt.
The tow ratings are all about liability from the manufacturer. They certify that a 1/2,3/4 or 1 ton will perform safely within the towing parameters exceed the ratings and you assume liability. The manufacturer will no longer stand behind the ratings of the truck.

It's not about pixie dust, but it's about civil court and a certified ratings sticker that the engineers calculate for each vin number.


Posted By: DSteiner51 on 01/18/12 12:16pm

The label on the door post means absolutely NOTHING once you drive it off the dealers lot. I can legally drive it 2 blocks to a parts store and change out the factory wheels and tires to some fancy junk not anywhere rated for the load on the sticker. I can also have them change out the differential gearing for something to my liking. Or I can drive it approx 3 blocks the other direction and have the paint color changed. I could finish my drive home from the dealer in the same week and the GVWR would be wrong, the wheel size would be wrong, the color code would be wrong, the axle code would be wrong yet I would be perfectly legal. The door post sticker only guarentees to the ORIGINAL buyer that the vehicle met certain standards when it was sold to the ORIGINAL buyer. Once the vehicle is sold all bets are off as the buyer can change things at will.

Increasing the weight over the GVWR may lower the expected life of the brakes, bearings, etc by maybe 1%, 2% or whatever. Does anyone know what the engineers chose as an expected life for the different items? If it is 300,000miles and I lower it to 250,000miles by my loading what is that to anyone else? Or why should I care if I'm going to trade at 200,000miles?

Safety never enters into any of these arguments as the weight police will defend their speeding using the dumbest excuses. They yell safety! safety! then speed, run "pink" lights, don't stop at stop signs, DUI, etc. I even had one obvious weight police with his big Chevy dually diesel pass me in a no pass zone on a blind curve with a trailer not much bigger then mine while I was doing the speed limit. I haven't figured out how the duals were going to help him in a head on yet.


Posted By: 45Ricochet on 01/18/12 12:26pm

Ignorance is bliss


Posted By: Chris on 01/18/12 01:29pm

All of you that post about lawsuits, please post some links to hotshot haulers that have had a similar issue. What we do towing 5th wheels to nothing compared to what they are doing with pickups. Chris


Posted By: NC Hauler on 01/18/12 03:19pm

rick83864 wrote:

Ignorance is bliss




indeed it tis.....


Posted By: roadhermit5858 on 01/18/12 03:33pm

The max gvw the manufacturer rates the truck at is the max gvw, It doesn't matter how many springs or air bags or heavier rated tires you put on, the mfg gvw is the figure. Further if the truck is rated for 11,000 lbs, and you register it for 14,000 lbs, and you are loaded above the 11,000 lbs, you are overweight, and wasting your money.
I don't understand why a lot of people overload these light weight pickups and think they have a big truck, you need to have the correct size truck to do the job, otherwise you are asking for trouble. You know what they say, you have the right tool to do the job.


Posted By: NC Hauler on 01/18/12 03:38pm

DSteiner51 wrote:

The label on the door post means absolutely NOTHING once you drive it off the dealers lot. I can legally drive it 2 blocks to a parts store and change out the factory wheels and tires to some fancy junk not anywhere rated for the load on the sticker. I can also have them change out the differential gearing for something to my liking. Or I can drive it approx 3 blocks the other direction and have the paint color changed. I could finish my drive home from the dealer in the same week and the GVWR would be wrong, the wheel size would be wrong, the color code would be wrong, the axle code would be wrong yet I would be perfectly legal. The door post sticker only guarentees to the ORIGINAL buyer that the vehicle met certain standards when it was sold to the ORIGINAL buyer. Once the vehicle is sold all bets are off as the buyer can change things at will.

Increasing the weight over the GVWR may lower the expected life of the brakes, bearings, etc by maybe 1%, 2% or whatever. Does anyone know what the engineers chose as an expected life for the different items? If it is 300,000miles and I lower it to 250,000miles by my loading what is that to anyone else? Or why should I care if I'm going to trade at 200,000miles?

Safety never enters into any of these arguments as the weight police will defend their speeding using the dumbest excuses. They yell safety! safety! then speed, run "pink" lights, don't stop at stop signs, DUI, etc. I even had one obvious weight police with his big Chevy dually diesel pass me in a no pass zone on a blind curve with a trailer not much bigger then mine while I was doing the speed limit. I haven't figured out how the duals were going to help him in a head on yet.


How do you get that safety never enters these arguments...you need to do a lot of re-reading....Oh, I don't speed, when towing or otherwise...unless you call towing at 55-62 mph "speeding"....What's a "pink" light??? I stop at stop signs, I give turn signals whenever I turn or change lanes...I don't pass in a no-pass zone, especially not in a blind curve.

How did you know that he guy that passed you in his "Chevy dually diesel" was an obivious weight police??? Did you know him, do you have ESP, or have you done a WHOLE LOT of ASSUMING on who is and isn't a weight police...

Sounds like you really have it out for the "weight police", though some of your definitions don't fit me at all, and yeah, I've been labeled a "weight police""...don't particularly care for it, but guess it is what it is....All I talk about is someone grossly overloading their truck. I don't give a flying flip if you drive a 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, 1 ton SRW or 1 ton DRW truck, I think they should tow what they were meant to two...so when someone comes on these forums and ASK if there truck can tow this or that, or ask what we think they need....and we answer a question that was asked....out come those who seem to have to justify that it's fine to tow well over one's trucks weight limits...Then, if that doesn't work, they resort to calling people names, or just flat making up story lines of what a weight police is...sad, truly sad.

I don't speed, I don't pass in no passing zones, I turn my lights on when it's foggy, I turn on my lights if it's raining, I give turn signals whenever I make a turn or a lane change and do it WELL in advance to let whomever is behind me know my intentions. I apologize for owning a dually diesel...seems to have rubbed you the wrong way, but don't bundle all of your ideas of what a weight police is in the same bundle..


I'm glad you know so much about a manufactured product that evidently you had absolutely no input in designing or building....forgive me, but I'll be stupid and follow the guidelines that were "recommended" by those design engineers when towing with one of the trucks they built...


Print  |  Close