I got some prices from Lippert. At $100/hour labor for 2 to 3 hours, I can do my own equalizers and wet bolts. I already have the helpful tool and the experience from the last trailer. So I'm going to do those, then check alignment again and proceed from there.
Well I installed the wet bolt kit and Equa-Flex equalizers.
Then I took it to a local truck spring and alignment place. They don't bend axles but said they would measure it and do what they could.
They said they were able to get the axles "tracking properly" by adjusting at the U-bolts, but that each axle has toe problems. He explained that they shot a laser down the middle and set the axles perpendicular to that laser. Then they measured the toe. I'm not sure if what they did even helped, or hurt, or whatever. Other than to confirm that the axles are not the best.
:/
When I got home, on level concrete, I took a quick measurement at the ends of the hubs (dust covers), and it showed one side is 1/4" farther apart than the other. More on that later.
Here are the toe specs (edit: readings), and I'll attempt a little text diagram too.
EDIT: these are wrong, the truck shop wrote them down wrong. Fixed in a later post.
LF: toe in 0.58º RF: toe out 0.45º
LR: toe in 0.36º RR: toe out 0.32º
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The center to center on the left side is 1/4" longer than on the right. Per my earlier posts, this goes directly to the hangers on the right being closer together than on the left. Actually they widened the difference between the sides when they set the axles the way they did. I really don't see what they accomplished as far as getting the tires tracking properly.
I need to dig up John Barca's old post where he gave the Dexter and Al-ko axle tolerances. I'm thinking the toe is out of spec on both axles but I'm not sure.
Camber-wise, it appears one wheel is negative. Their chart is messed up with hand corrections but I think it is one side of the rear. I've called them once for clarification on the toe, and I'm not calling them again. At this point I think new axles might be warranted.
* This post was
edited 12/29/11 04:20pm by Snowman9000 *
The more I look at it, if those numbers are accurate, the trailer ought to pull pretty well, albeit dog-tracking to the right by half a degree. Which equals 3" of dog-tracking off to one side, so it's not nothing.
I've got to mull this over. We plan to put a lot of miles on this trailer, and it would be nice to have it right. OTOH if it pulls well (it does) and I'm willing to gamble on premature tire wear (there's the rub, pun intended), then I can forget about this for now.
* This post was
edited 12/28/11 06:49pm by Snowman9000 *
Here are the toe specs, and I'll attempt a little text diagram too.
LF: toe in 0.58º RF: toe out 0.45º
LR: toe in 0.36º RR: toe out 0.32º
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/---/
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Snow,
You said toe spec's, did you mean these are what they "measured" toe as?
Trying to follow what you said they did with the lazer, I agree that the king pin centerline needs to the square to the axle centerline, however the angle measured distance from king pin to axle center on the left and right also have to be the same within tolerance. Point: the Lazer center needed to hit the dead center of the axle tube left to right. While it may be square to use that method it also has to be dead center. If your square and off center it will not track exactly correct or create a thrust wear angle in the tires. I'm not saying they did not do it right, just you did not mention what else they did with the lazer.
The real problem in all this is how much can you be out and still have an acceptable level of tire wear? Meaning they will age out before they wear out they way you use them. I could not find anyone who could tell me how bad the wear will be for how far out of spec. I'm sure there is someone who does this for a living every day all the time on trailers and can tell us, just have not found that person yet... Some one setting semi trailers all the time should know this. The one thing I can find is the more exact you make a semi trailer to being perfect, the longer the tire wear will last....
I now have a little over 10,000 miles on mine since I set the TT up here in the yard. The only objectionable wear I have noticed is from side scrubbing in turns. On a set of tandem non steering axles I do not know to get rid of that. Sort of the nature of the beast. Guys with these new spread axle TT's even have it worse.
John
John & Cindy
2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10
CC, SB, Lariat & FX4 package
21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR
Ford Tow Command
1,700# Reese HP hitch & HP Dual Cam
2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver
2004 Sunline Solaris T310SR
(I wish we were camping!)
Honestly, I don't know what they did with the lasers. I think I know, but I can't be certain. I think they squared the centers of the axle tubes to the kingpin centerline. Then I think they measured the toe in/out.
I'm going to take some time to re-measure things myself and get a feel for how it is sitting. If I knew that two new axles would fix it, I'd just do it. But there is still a hanger location issue so it's a bigger deal.
As for the hanger not being in the right place, this could be corrected yourself with the Rieco-Titan Correct Track line of products. The Correct Track is weld on and does not change your ride height. The Correct Track II is bolt on and will raise the trailer 2 inches.
OK. After further review, the spring shop had transposed two readings.
Their results are as follows:
LF 0.45º out RF 0.58º in
LR 0.36º in RR 0.32º out
sketch:
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Before I figured that out, I went and re-measured, with the tires on the floor, which is different than how I did it the first time(s).
My right side somewhat correlates with the spring shop's. My left side measurements are straighter than theirs. I have to suppose their methods are better than mine, obviously.
I did measure across my Lippert Flexi-Frame just for snicks. And, using long straightedges, levels for plumb and what not, I measured from the outsides of the tires' front and rear edges to the frame, as well as completely across to the outside of the other tire on the axle. Some measurements include the straightedge itself, because I hooked the tape measure onto it, so don't get too literal as far as why a number might be bigger than you would expect.
I do think it makes sense to measure toe to the frame? If I read their bulletin right, that's how Lippert does it.
What I think I see is that if I was to put new axles on, the hanger thing definitely needs to be addressed. Here is my latest sketch:
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* This post was
edited 12/30/11 06:14am by Snowman9000 *
ExRocketScientist wrote: As for the hanger not being in the right place, this could be corrected yourself with the Rieco-Titan Correct Track line of products. The Correct Track is weld on and does not change your ride height. The Correct Track II is bolt on and will raise the trailer 2 inches.
I just checked them out; it turns out that I live pretty close to their company. I am going to call them today just to see if they have a shop and do installations. I don't want the increased height so I'd have to use the weld on version.
I'm not sure I'd go this direction, but it will be interesting to talk to them.
You mentioned you had hanger issues, I went back and re-read your post. On your 1st thread you showed a sketch of the spring pin centers. However you did not show a long distance from the very front hanger to the very back hanger.
The front hanger and the rear hangers are what sets the axles for thrust angle and axle to axle being parallel. The equalizer hanger really does not affect the position of the axle as great as the front and rear hanger.
Since you can slide the axle tube around on the axle seat by loosened up the U bolts I cannot tell from your sketches how good or bad the hanger problem is. And the truck shop used that trick to put the axle back into better alignment.
On your first page posted sketch you did not show hardly any toe angle by measuring the outside of the tires or brake drum how ever you did it.
However on your last sketch and how the shop did it you have toe angle all over the place. I "think" there is a difference in how the 1st page diag and your 2nd page diag where taken. The 1st page was up on jack stands with the axles free as you where doing brakes and grease.
The 2nd page I "believe" you are on concrete with the axle under load where on the 1st page the axles where hanging free, is this correct?
Reason for stating this is, when you measured the 2nd page sketch that shows toe angle going all over did you back the camper up 10 to 15 feet straight or pull forward that distance so they are not steering so to speak just coming out of a turn?
My thoughts are if you are going to use the loaded on the concrete method, which is just fine, jack up the camper one side at a time to allow the axle tubes to unbind themselves and then put it back down. Then you know you are not fighting axle tube bind from backing into the spot you park at.
If you are going to find a shop to do some welding, I see at least 3 choices.
1. The Corrrect track weld on version. The only Issue I have with the Correct track is you can only get alignment as good as one hex click. It for sure may be better then you are now but it is a course adjustment. Ideally they sell a blank hex washer and you drill the hole where ever you want it.
2. Have a shop cut off the old hanger in the wrong place and put a new one on in the right place.
3. Create a fine adjustable axle seat like I did. You can then dial in what ever adjustment you need within reason.
You already know the cost and the task of new axle tubes from your other camper. Depending one ones point of view it is a big deal or not. You know this deal.
If you readings are real as you show them or as bad as the shop shows them, I myself would get new axle tubes and deal with the hangers if you are planning on towing long and keeping the camper for a good long time. But that is me always striving to have the setup as correct as I know how to make it.
Your reported dimensions are out side of Dexters spec. That is staring you in the face. I know it's your money I'm spending I know...LOL and the end decision is yours to fix or leave it. If you can find that person who has been doing trailer alignment for the last 20 years and knows how far outside the Dexter spec you can be and still have acceptable tire wear that may help you justify leaving the camper alone now or not. If you find that guy, please let us in out it....
If you find a dial cailper (even a cheap one as long as it is 3 decimal places) and measure all 4 new tires now like I did across the thread you can create a wear map. Then 6 months from now look at the wear map again. If you are wearing a bad pattern you will see it. You cannot see this with the naked eye unless you have a really bad problem. That then is the time to deal with it or accept the fact you are wearing tires and the tire life will be less. You are then creating your own tire wear knowledge base experiment. The only bad part of this is you created a wear pattern in the tire and from what I know and have heard is once a wear pattern sets in it will keep wearing that way even if you fix the problem. That is more for front end steering tires. On a trailers rotating the tires may be the only last recourse to help even out the wear so they all wear out at the same time. (see page 5 in my axle post)
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