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Open Roads Forum  >  Toy Haulers

 > Excessive tire wear only on outside edges

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pcassidy111

California

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Joined: 11/17/2004

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Posted: 12/16/11 08:40pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Any real world numbers to show the amount of camber change loaded vs unloaded? Are you hanging heads on the trailer wheels or using a bubble gauge to capture the alignment angles? Are you taking the alignment angle measurements after neutralizing the suspension (on turn plates or some other method) to relieve any stress, torsional or otherwise, that was induced into the suspension while locating/parking it? Is the amount of camber change even significant in over the road travel? We are talking about a atraight axle here, .250 wall tubing. For the camber to change it has to pivot around a fulcrum. The force being applied by the load is acting on only about 6 inches of one side of the lever, not a very good mechanical advantage to overcome the strength of the axle tubing unless you are grossly overloaded. Not calling you on the carpet over this, the engineer side of me needs to see real numbers and not visual observation of a piece in motion with a constantly changing point of reference- we are not talking about a Ford Twin I Beam design where you can see camber change when jouncing the truck on the turn plates, we are talking about a straight axle located by two leaf spring packs.

And yes when you jack a trailer axle up in the middle you may exceed its design limits and it could fail because the weight that was once distributed between 2 points is now concentrated at one point.


Pete

Crazy Cooter

Redding, CA

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Posted: 12/16/11 09:07pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pcassidy111 wrote:

Any real world numbers to show the amount of camber change loaded vs unloaded? Are you hanging heads on the trailer wheels or using a bubble gauge to capture the alignment angles? Are you taking the alignment angle measurements after neutralizing the suspension (on turn plates or some other method) to relieve any stress, torsional or otherwise, that was induced into the suspension while locating/parking it? Is the amount of camber change even significant in over the road travel? We are talking about a atraight axle here, .250 wall tubing. For the camber to change it has to pivot around a fulcrum. The force being applied by the load is acting on only about 6 inches of one side of the lever, not a very good mechanical advantage to overcome the strength of the axle tubing unless you are grossly overloaded. Not calling you on the carpet over this, the engineer side of me needs to see real numbers and not visual observation of a piece in motion with a constantly changing point of reference- we are not talking about a Ford Twin I Beam design where you can see camber change when jouncing the truck on the turn plates, we are talking about a straight axle located by two leaf spring packs.

And yes when you jack a trailer axle up in the middle you may exceed its design limits and it could fail because the weight that was once distributed between 2 points is now concentrated at one point.


I used both Bubble gauges and later we upgraded to a Hunter laser system. Turn plates on the rear axle and greasy flat plates for the front. All turning stresses were relieved from the axles as each wheel was jacked up to run the head out......

I don't have exact #'s to give you, except that on a smaller two axle travel trailer with 3500# axles, I could hang off the back bumper and make the camber go negative. The closer you are to the axle's capacity, the more change there will be.

Why would Dexter bend camber into the tube during manufacture if there wasn't a change while loaded? Because a cheesey 3.5X.250 tube can't hang with 7K beating on top of it without some deflection.

I understand in theory, a strait axle wont bend, but most 1/2 ton pickups have negative camber on the rear axle for some strange reason......oh ya...it flexes a little.

I also understand the engineering type mentality.....you want proof. I suggest you try it for yourself instead of trying to convince those of us who do/did this for a living that what we have seen is a lie and our eyes deceived us.

You could just take our word for it.......I have fixed 1000's of vehicles tire wear issues without complaint.....well except big RX7 guy.....


Tony KI6WAO

2006 Dodge Ram 3500 DRW
1992 Jeep Wrangler YJ
2012 Cyclone 300C
2013 Can Am Maverick X-RS
2006 KTM 525 EXC CA Plated
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2007 Kawasaki STX12F
2009 Kawasaki 260X

pcassidy111

California

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Posted: 12/16/11 10:33pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I figured since axles and alignments were your primary business you could just run a printout next time you do a trailer alignment then add a little weight and run another print out. 5 minutes of your time vs me pulling my trailer to work, robbing the turn plates from the alignment racks and checking he alignment on my trailer.

I had a Ferrari that was perfect on the rack but the customer was not satisfied with on the road but was ok at speed on track days. I knew what the problem was when his wife came to pick him up and I realigned it with an extra 100 lbs over the required weight in the passenger seat. The wife rode with him on their Sunday drives but not on track days.

big buford

Buena Park, Ca

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Posted: 12/16/11 11:08pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pcassidy111 wrote:

I figured since axles and alignments were your primary business you could just run a printout next time you do a trailer alignment then add a little weight and run another print out. 5 minutes of your time vs me pulling my trailer to work, robbing the turn plates from the alignment racks and checking he alignment on my trailer.

I had a Ferrari that was perfect on the rack but the customer was not satisfied with on the road but was ok at speed on track days. I knew what the problem was when his wife came to pick him up and I realigned it with an extra 100 lbs over the required weight in the passenger seat. The wife rode with him on their Sunday drives but not on track days.


I think your theory and thoughts on this matter are sound but, and it's a big but , I think you are putting too much faith in the builders of these coaches to do the right thing. Not sure where you got the .250 wall thickness from but a quick search showed a (I think) .180 wall thickness on a 5200lb axle and the OP may have smaller axles than that.

trailer axle

If you "really" check the weights of your rig against the running gear I can pretty much guarentee you wont have a warm fuzzy feeling.


04.5 GMC 2500HD D/A
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Crazy Cooter

Redding, CA

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Posted: 12/17/11 03:58am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pcassidy111 wrote:

I figured since axles and alignments were your primary business you could just run a printout next time you do a trailer alignment then add a little weight and run another print out. 5 minutes of your time vs me pulling my trailer to work, robbing the turn plates from the alignment racks and checking he alignment on my trailer.

I had a Ferrari that was perfect on the rack but the customer was not satisfied with on the road but was ok at speed on track days. I knew what the problem was when his wife came to pick him up and I realigned it with an extra 100 lbs over the required weight in the passenger seat. The wife rode with him on their Sunday drives but not on track days.


I would do it for ya, but I don't do the alignment end of it anymore.

My shop deals with the differential side of things. I still work on lots of trailers, but the alignment is a really low paying operation not justifying the cost and space of the equipment required.

Easy test....stick an angle finder on your center cap or bearing cap...then load her up the toys and water without moving it. If you are loading the axles anywhere near capacity, you should see the change....easy without taking into the shop.

big buford

Buena Park, Ca

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Posted: 12/17/11 08:46am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Page 3 Camber

BobWanderer

Perris,Calif,USA

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Posted: 12/17/11 11:20am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

big buford wrote:

Page 3 Camber


I think that helps to prove the point !!
Thanks

* This post was edited 12/17/11 01:47pm by BobWanderer *


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guamuchil31

perris california

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Posted: 12/17/11 11:34am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ck measuments from the hangers make sure that non of the hangers are bendt or have an offset on them, pretty common problem.also ck for any cracked cross members that might be upsetting the weingt.

BobWanderer

Perris,Calif,USA

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Posted: 12/17/11 11:50am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pcassidy111 wrote:

I figured since axles and alignments were your primary business you could just run a printout next time you do a trailer alignment then add a little weight and run another print out. 5 minutes of your time vs me pulling my trailer to work, robbing the turn plates from the alignment racks and checking he alignment on my trailer.


I think were talking more than a "little weight".
Between my Rhino and 2 bikes alone I would estimate 1800 lbs, then add the stuff we haul to support our riding as well as more fuel in the fuel station. If were just camping or fishing were probably 2K lighter.

BobWanderer

Perris,Calif,USA

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Posted: 12/19/11 06:34pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Stroke of Power wrote:

I have a 2009 WW 21FB toyhauler and noticed the outside edge of all four tires are worn almost bald. The inside edges are almost full depth tread. I need to get new tires but want to fix any problems first, any thoughts on the cause of excessive wear only on the outside edges? The current tires are Transmaster ST225/75R15 load range D.

Any thoughts on best brand of new tires for the 15" rim? Is it better to upgrade to a range E tire? Is a radial or bias ply better?

Thanks for the help,

Josh


Any word yet ??

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