So, back to this and my question of why the need for this exotic coating.
Why
the extremely delicate processes?
Is the space to decrease the contact PSI not there? or is management dictating
sticking with whatever form factor for the sake of saving some $$$
This is academic for me, as was interested in switching to diesel.
Read up back in the 90's and stopped after finding out that there was
a freight train(s) coming down. Both the ever increasing HP
race/demand and the regulatory over head...married to e greater
than their sum
Wonder if the aftermarket OEMs have different solutions? Know warranty will be
an issue, but once a solution found, droves will go there.
If I had the money, I'd rig up several with some other pump (gear)
and run it till it broke or long enough to develop comparison info
The PSI is not that high per say, but it is for automotive. The temps
are also not that high, but for auto it might be. Saying that there
are solutions out there...maybe not in this small of a form factor, but
they are out there. Heavens, these are trucks, so there should be
room for a bigger/different/etc pump
Is there a clean sheet solution discussion out there? As I see several
band aids on top band aids on this one
Bosch is the one that has to answer to why the exotic coating.
But their published literature boast that the CP 4 series of pumps is both higher pressure 2,000 vs 1,600 bar vs. the CP 3, and simpler and cheaper to build.
They basically put their eggs into a very thin skinned coating with (at least in theory) miraculous properties of thermal conductivity, slipperyness, hardness, and manufacturabilty (for Bosch and not many one else.)
No doubt that a redesign of the cam / piston to lower contact pressure is possible --- after all, we have been doing cam / piston like contacts (called lifters) at lower pressures forever.
But the question is --- what is the fix now without a redesign of the whole pump?
The PSI / temperature is not all that high compared to highs we have reached in small volume applications.
Certainly rocket fuel pumps experience much higher pressures and temperatures.
The problem is, we need these pumps to last something north of 10,000 hours, with widely varying fuel, large number of temperature and operating cycles, and that is a challenge.
In another business I know, electronics for autos seem to be so simple -- that is, until you realize that it has to be done at THAT price point, and the durability required is North of 7 or more years of normal use (warranty for emissions), AND the sheer number of heat/cold cycle, the dirt it operates in, and so on.
Auto electronics, in that sense, are some of the toughest stuff out there to build --- and that is why when certain people try to outdo the car makers in electronics, they ended up with their non-linear head handed back to them.
As for a clean sheet solution --- there is not any way I can think of doing one that would meet cost targets in the range this pump is in.
I reckon the Bosch pump cost Ford around $250 to $350 a unit.
Doubt we can get a competitive design built for less than $1,000 a unit, or find anything off the shelf that would work.
Remember, if we swap pumps, in theory, EPA certification of the system has to be done from scratch --- if we want to play manufacturer and legal...
Go to DIESEL PLACE, read what they say about Diesel Additives. The list is long. Some additives are far worst than running just stock fuels. Soy Power Diesel fuel at 2% in your 26 gallon tank placed first in testing for SCAR ware .Metal to Metal contact.
mpfireman wrote: Go to DIESEL PLACE, read what they say about Diesel Additives. The list is long. Some additives are far worst than running just stock fuels. Soy Power Diesel fuel at 2% in your 26 gallon tank placed first in testing for SCAR ware .Metal to Metal contact.
Can you tell me whether it contains organic Amines that are reactive with DLC coatings?
Looks to me like there is going to be a rash of CP 4 failures from additives that contain substances incompatible with the Bosch CP 4 pump.
Until we know what caused Rickatic's and like CP 4 pumps to fail, it would be foolish to put anything in the tank beside straight, name brand diesel.
* This post was
last
edited 02/14/12 03:01pm by NewsW *
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An urgent note to reputable makers of Diesel Fuel additives:
Lubricating oil additives are known to become reactive at 150-180C.
Diesel oil additives behavior at these temperatures and at high pressures (2,000 bar) and like temperatures is not well documented because most diesel fuel additives contain proprietary products.
There are reasons to believe that these additives contain potentially reactive ingredients based on what we know about lubricating oil additives which are similar chemically.
It is possible for these products to be independently assayed and their content dissected and published.
But that is not good for the additive business, is it?
A far better route would be for the makers of these products who wish to be reputable, credible, and trustworthy suppliers to the diesel public to certificate / certify that their product is safe to use in the present generation of 2,000 bar diesel fuel systems at operating temperatures reasonably expected to be reached.
While I hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater, in the absence of such a clear, unqualified endorsement by the maker that their product is indeed safe for the Bosch CP4 and like pumps, is there any reason for me to not just use regular diesel fuel without these additives?
* This post was
edited 02/15/12 12:18pm by NewsW *
NewsW...most here won't get that...have gotten headaches trying to explain how high
temperature, mechanically passivated with some H2O tossed in there (ATF) can
turn (reformulate) into nasty stuff not good for their innards and/or degrade in properties
The magic temp threshold is normally around 100*C for stuff out of an oil well
This is where it starts to degrade...where so many advise others that
'it is good for it'
One big issue is that the suppliers vs the component/system/etc OEMs do NOT
talk, nor will they ever. Too much ground for any one after market supplier to
touch bases, at the required level of detail/technology/etc, with each other's
secret formulations.
In the past not a problem, as the PSI's and temp's were much lower
Okay, going to a different type/better/bigger pump is out, for now in this discussion
So back into the rat holes.
One is the extreme PSI (not diesel fuel, but inside the pump), why
and how to reduce it...but the very high fuel PSI does drive the PSI
potential requirements inside the pump...of this type and size.
Second is the high temps, why and how to reduce it
Third is the exotic lube (both solid plated, and the liquid), why and how to
reduce it to a common or not needed.
All of them should be diagnosed down to the root cause(s), then move
out of that rat hole with a solution(s). Which am assuming Bosch has
and is what we have now....so now what?
To me, goes back to a different type/better/bigger pump, or is there
some even more exotic material science out there that will be better
than DLC's & whatever liquid lube employed now?
There appears, to me, that a side bar is in the works...higher fuel
price due to this pumps's demand/requirement/etc...AND...even more
exotic filtration systems or some such...maybe a catalyst for the
fuel filter(s), etc, etc, etc, etc
All to save the form factor of 'this existing' pump and the OEM cost point
of 'this existing' pump
Seen it so many times before and am afraid seeing it now...bean counter
management being penny wise and pound foolish and in this case,
sticking with this pump...
Pushing up injection pressures was a reliable way to get lower emissions and doable.
It now looks like there are lots more issues than just fuel to ASTM spec.
Basically, the first generation CP 4 customers are guinea pigs for the industry until everyone figures out who has to change what?
Remember the reason for ULSD is because it poisoned catalysts, and also to cut SOx emissions.
There was a mysterious rash of EGR valve failures prior to 2008, with valves clogged so badly (we are talking like a tar like gooey deposit that hardened to a thick hard stuff that is hard to scrape off) that effectively, EGR function is disabled.
Yes, the valves were redesigned, but the real telltale is that valves that were just cleaned (redesigned or not) stayed clean.
I guess the fuel formulation got changed, but it was done quietly, and everyone kept mum.
Now and then, the truth erupts, as when one major fuel vendor in the Northeast discovered that they had too much sulfur int he fuel, and it killed the fuel tank level sensors.
They quietly paid the repair bill for everyone that complained.
We don't know what it is still.. but the circumstantial evidence of an incompatibility between the coatings and either fuel or fuel additives is piling up.
Can't everybody see that the real issue here is not the pump, it's the fuel. As we have traveling around this winter, we have pumped fuel rated as No.1 Diesel, B5 diesel, B15 Diesel and here in my own home town, a station with a pump that says it "May contain in excess of 20% biomatter" - I don't buy at THAT one. The owners manual for my truck states that it is not designed to operate with more than 5% bio.
Sure the failure is the CP4 Ford (and the others) bought from Bosch, but the cause is always contaminated fuel.
In an effort to satisfy every hair brained political demand from a subset of our culture who oppose ANY motive power that is fossil fuel based, we have so polluted the fuels we need with Organicly produced fuels of questionable quality than in many cases we are destroying the motors. Fuel that is not designed to generate motive power, but rather, fuel that is designed to effect a social change.
Internationally very, very few countries are having a problem with diesel motors - only our more developed nations. Diesel power provides the vast majority of motive power around the world because it is a less refined fuel and can be produced cheaply in large quanities. The diesel motors in those countries are simple. They do not require 25lbs of computers and sensors coupled with 200lbs of filters, EGRs, etc., to keep them running. Injectors cost $10 not $1-2,000. The motors produce enough power to move huge loads with very good economy.
In the early 90's I owned a few Iveco Cabover box trucks (1 1/2 ton as I recall) that got close to 25mpg empty and 20+ mpg highway loaded with a simple air cooled Dultz Diesel motor. They racked up 100k miles with little more than a burned valve. BTW Each cylider could be individually changed as a unit, cylinder, piston, rod, head, valves and in one shot - cheap too. But that motor was banned from our shores like so many other vehicles that are in use all around the world - just not here.
Until OUR fuel supply can be unified under one set of standards we are going to have these issues. Changing fuel blends based on political bounderies and season of the year takes the production of a high tech motor that is designed to operate on a highly refined fuel a loseing propisition. As Bosch is finding out.
How do we fix the problem? Just like we have overcome every other problem, we decide if we need the high tech, high dollar solution and fix our fuel supply, OR we back up a little and run fuels that we have a proven track record of producing that will run effectivly in diesel motor until this current generation.
In other words - scrap the joke CARB "Standards????" for diesel motors. Standards that were written as if they were gassers that could just be leanded a bit more and filtered a bit more and we HAVE to get rid of that evil black smoke and all would be good. Heve you ever tried to explaine to a gen X that carbon is the second most plentious element on Earth and the diesels DON'T "produce" carbon???
It doesn't work.
Larry and Debbie Kruzan
We never turn a corner without wondering in amazement at God's creation!
The trouble with blaming it on fuel quality is that we are simultaneously facing declines in crude oil (input) quality as crude is both heavier and more sour than before.
Heavier and more sour (sulfur) oil needs more processing to become on road grade fuel.
At the same time, fuel quality standards have gone up, requiring blends that are lower in sulfur and contaminants, and burn with lower emissions.
In between all this, there is a huge change with biofuels being introduced.
It would be surprising that something doesn't trip up in this mess.
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