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pulsar

Lewisville, NC

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Posted: 02/20/12 01:53pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Having assured the world that the Safari situation was accidental, even though they admit to having deliberately circumvented Safari's blocking of third-party cookies to add a cookie to aid them in their advertising - I guess it was the side effects that were accidentally. Google believes it is OK to hack your computer for their purpose and any bad side effects are not their fault - Microsoft has discovered that Google has been hacking Internet Explorer so that they can place cookies on IE users' computers.

MSDN Blogs

Ars Technica, among others, has asked Google for a statement. So far no response. I guess they are having trouble coming up with another accident formulation.

Tom

pulsar

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Posted: 02/21/12 06:15pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Francesca Knowles wrote:

If there's an injured party here, it's not Safari's customers, it's Safari itself. And believe you me, that's their only concern.

As is entirely appropriate in the free enterprise system we've built for ourselves. A system based on transferring my money to someone else's pocket, I might add...

Google getting in probably compromises Safari's ability to sell ads and earn money. So yes- in THAT sense, it's wrong. Whether Google will be able to keep a straight face when claiming it was an "accident" or something, time will tell.

But as for any injury to us as targets/consumers of the identical product both enterprises are selling...I just don't see it.


it appears that the courts will get to decide.

Google Sued by Apple Safari-User Over Web-Browser Privacy

Personally, I'm more interested in what the Federal Trade Commission will do. Google entered into an agreement with them about previous privacy violations. Google is not maintaining that if Safari users had opted out, then they would not have side-steped Safari security. Of course, they are leaving out the part where they assured Safari users that they didn't need to opt out, because Safari blocked third-party cookies, all the time knowing that they had a workaround.

Francesca Knowles,

You don't think it is an issue. Where would you draw the lines, if at all?

Tom

Francesca Knowles

Port Hadlock, Washington

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Posted: 02/21/12 08:55pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The line is already drawn, as far as I can see...Civil law provides relief/protection for injured parties. What injury has anyone but Safari suffered as a result of Google's perfidy? That's the first hurdle the "plaintiff" in this lawsuit has to get over...

It'll be interesting to see how far he gets with this case.

This really seems to me much more like a sort of small-potatoes industrial espionage situation...you know, where manufacturer "A" gets ahold of manufacturer "B"'s processes and copycats them. Since "B"'s ability to sell a unique product is compromised, he's damaged. He can go to the Courts for economic relief and "A" can be made to pay for "B"'s losses.

So what comparable injury have Safari users suffered? That in spite of Safari's promises, marketeers other than Safari got in anyway? Seems to me that users should blame Safari for overpromising in that department.

As for where I personally draw the line and protect mySELF from 'net intrusion into my Private Business....that's a philosophical/logistical question I'd be happy to discuss, but it's outside the subject matter of this thread!


" Not every mind that wanders is lost. " With apologies to J.R.R. Tolkien

Davydd

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Posted: 02/22/12 07:50am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Francesca Knowles wrote:



So what comparable injury have Safari users suffered? That in spite of Safari's promises, marketeers other than Safari got in anyway? Seems to me that users should blame Safari for overpromising in that department.

So, if a burglar breaks into my house I should blame the lock company?


Davydd
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Visited states in an RV


wittmeba

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Posted: 02/22/12 10:32am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Microsoft is paid far too well to remove the tracking ability from their browser. You can turn it off in a given session but when you restart your browser it will default to On. They will not allow you to permanently turn it off.

Lots of info about tracking and security here. Part of why I would never use Chrome for my browser.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703467304575383530439838568.html


NRA Member & supporter of the 2nd amendment - over 5,000,000 strong

Firefox® 33

Log home images - Updated 05/19/2013


Francesca Knowles

Port Hadlock, Washington

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Posted: 02/22/12 12:06pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Davydd wrote:

Francesca Knowles wrote:



So what comparable injury have Safari users suffered? That in spite of Safari's promises, marketeers other than Safari got in anyway? Seems to me that users should blame Safari for overpromising in that department.

So, if a burglar breaks into my house I should blame the lock company?

No- you should blame the "Security Company" that you engaged to protect your house 24/7 because they promised to prevent such an intrusion.
Whose fault is it if they locked the doors, but left the "Windows" open? Pun intended.
Of course, any monetary damage award might be pretty small if all the burglar did was go through your underwear drawer, as figuratively might be said in this case.

Interestingly, Apple appears to be acknowledging their responsibility in that department...the fifth paragraph at the above link says:
Quote:

Safari is the top browser for mobile devices, with 55 percent of the market, according to January data from Net Applications.

Apple’s Response
Apple is aware that “that some third parties are circumventing Safari’s privacy features,” said Bill Evans, a spokesman for the Cupertino, California-based company. “ We are working to put a stop to it,” he said.

I'll bet they are! They certainly owe it to their stockholders to protect that 55% market share...
They must be tearing their hair out, especially since Google's not the only company that breezed past Apple's vaunted security measures.
Another quote from the above link:
Quote:

The study named three other companies -- Vibrant Media Inc., Media Innovation Group LLC and PointRoll Inc. -- that also evaded privacy settings.


Including worth-suing Google, that's four companies that we KNOW about. So far.

But they're not gettin' in to MY underwear drawer because I don't take it out onto the information superhighway.

pulsar

Lewisville, NC

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Posted: 02/22/12 03:46pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Google's Buzz debacle - in early 2010, Google introduced a feature that compiles a list of the Gmail contacts who users most frequently e-mail or chat with. Buzz automatically starts following these people and makes the list public, meaning strangers can see who Buzz users have been in contact with. Google apologized.

In May, 2010, Google admitted that it had been "mistakenly collecting samples " of user browsing data sent over unencrypted Wi-Fi networks such as e-mail, user passwords and browsing history. The piece of programming code used to grab user data was from an "experimental WiFi project," and Google says the code was inadvertently added to Google's Street View data collection software. Google apologized.

In mid January, a Kenyan start up company, Mocality, learned that for months Google had attempted to undermine its business by lying to its customers and improperly mining its data. Google apologized.

In this case, Google tells Safari users they need do nothing, Google cannot put tracking cookies on your computer because Safari prevents it. Google then circumvents the Safari security and places cookies on Safari users' computers. Google didn't apologize. Instead, in one of Googles responses, "If they had opted out, we wouldn't have placed the cookies on their computers."

Why does Google behave this way? Could it be because nobody, or not enough people care? Could it be because Google doesn't care what people think and regulatory slaps on the wrists are not painful.

Google's development of Android provides insight into how Google thinks. In an internal email, Google's Android boss Andy Rubin wrote:
    "If Sun doesn't want to work with us, we have two options: 1) Abandon our work and adopt MSFT CLR VM and C# language - or - 2) Do Java anyway and defend our decision, perhaps making enemies along the way"
Google chose option 2.

I am fearful that magicbus' scenario may come to fruition: if Google is allowed to continue their unrestrained practices in another couple of years we will be asking "Why didn't someone stop these guys before they got this much information collected?"

Tom

Francesca Knowles

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Posted: 02/22/12 08:10pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Stop which guys? The TV provider that knows what commercial programming you watch? The grocery store/pharmacy that has you swipe the "club card" and knows exactly what goods you actually BUY?

What do you think they do with all that "information"? Sell it, that's what.

Consumer-defining information gathering is really everywhere, and the extent to which we participate in every one of these systems is entirely voluntary, and in my opinion public.

Philosophically, I think the divide here is in how we perceive the definition of the word "private" as applied to the internet and other communication systems that we've chosen to leash ourselves to.

pulsar

Lewisville, NC

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Posted: 02/22/12 09:24pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Francesca Knowles wrote:

Stop which guys? The TV provider that knows what commercial programming you watch? The grocery store/pharmacy that has you swipe the "club card" and knows exactly what goods you actually BUY?

What do you think they do with all that "information"? Sell it, that's what.

Consumer-defining information gathering is really everywhere, and the extent to which we participate in every one of these systems is entirely voluntary, and in my opinion public.

Philosophically, I think the divide here is in how we perceive the definition of the word "private" as applied to the internet and other communication systems that we've chosen to leash ourselves to.


No, I'm talking about the actions of Google. Are they acceptable or not? To me, the answer is easy, they are not.

Tom

Francesca Knowles

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Posted: 02/22/12 11:18pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pulsar wrote:



No, I'm talking about the actions of Google. Are they acceptable or not? To me, the answer is easy, they are not.

Tom

Well...
I guess I'm unclear as to what specific actions on Google's part you refer to!

Bearing in mind where their (legally, first) responsibilities to their stockholders lie...what exactly did they do that is illegal, immoral, or legally actionable in any other way?
Or different, for that matter, from every other Advertising Worm out there?

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